Piano - Organ... How difficult?

[franz_]

How difficult is it to play when you play well piano?
From September, I will try to play in churches, may be with a singer to. But, I can't remember I've ever played on an organ. Is it that difficult? I would just like to play basic, without pedals and all the things around.

[franz_]

Anybody? 

[timothy42b]

Go to Anything But Piano area and read the thread called "Faking it on Organ."

Here is my very inexperienced take on organ playing. 

I am sure that a real organist would be offended by a pianist's attempts at organ playing.

But if you just want to make some noise, it isn't hard at all.  My church has only an Allen digital organ, model ADC 1000 or something like that, so I don't know if this applies to all. 

First you turn it on.  Bang on the keyboards and pedals, nothing will happen.  You have to add voices called stops to each keyboard (called manuals) to make it play.  I have a choice of 7 preset stop combinations and that's all I use, unless I need to be really quiet for practice.  Sitting is hard, there is nowhere to put your feet.  I tuck one under the bench and rest the other on the accelerator pedal.  Some call that an expression pedal, I guess.  Seeing the music is tricky too.  You have two manuals to fit, or more, and that means the music lyre may be too high for some eyeglasses.  Like mine.  I usually rewrite my music bigger. 

The keys are not weighted.  If you can play fast on piano you can fly on organ.  Some sounds speak more slowly though.  I can trill much better than on piano, (except for on pedals.)  To make it louder and softer either push on the pedal or add/subtract stops.  Or both.  You don't have a sostenuto pedal so hold the keys down.  You also don't have any decay, so it isn't that hard. 

When I get a chance I'm going to get a lesson or two on organ.  Using the stops to custom tailor the sound desired is beyond me, so I use the presets.  There's a lot to work on there if you want. 

[amanfang]

In order to play WELL, most pianists don't transition very well without some instruction.  Some common problems - too choppy, too mushy, trying to do things written for piano on an organ.  Also, most pianists think that it's not hard to transition since they're both keyboard instruments.  But it really takes a lot of work/practice to play well.  Even without the pedals.

[falcon1]

We can put it this way, the only thing piano and organ has in common is the keyboard - or manuals like we organists like to call it.

Some basics tips and advices.

1. Sound production of these instruments are very different. Piano uses hammers to strike strings, but (real) pipe organs produces sound by blowing air into and through pipes.
2. Piano is only one voice, but organ has anywhere from 1 voice (called stops) to 200+ voices/stops.
3. Stops are marked 32', 16', 8',4',2' etc. - 8' is the same pitch as piano (middle c on piano is middle c on organ is middle c there too if it's played with 8' stop). 32' sounds 2 octaves lower, 16' sounds 1 octave lower, 4' is 1 octave higher, 2' is 2 octaves higher, 1' is 3 octaves higher.
4. Stops are like orchestra, there are woodwind/brass/strings stops. Brass stops are called reeds. The foundation stops of the organ is the principal family if you use that family plus stop called Mixture you can make lot of noise but still be safe because those blends well. If you want more noise then add some Reeds but stay away from those stops you have 1/3 etc. markings on them - if you want to be safe
5. Playing style on organ is a lot depending on the accoustics of the church/hall - you don't have sustain pedal to save you if the accoustic is bad. Example: In large Cathedral you would play fast passages non-staccato and in extreme cases staccato to stay away from muddy sound.
6. On real organs, doesn't apply to electronic organs, you need to press the notes ALL THE WAY DOWN and take them ALL THE WAY UP!!!  If you do not, you won't get pretty sound!
7. Key attack is various between organs some organs are have light attacks but some are really heavy if you pull out many stops. Again doesn't apply to electronic organs.
8. Stops respond variably the bigger pipes need obviously more time to respond than the smaller one so if you pull out 16' stop or even 32' stop you need to be aware of this fact. specially if you're playing some fast passages. Doesn't apply to electronic organs.
9. Play legato! It's better to think about playing legato while you're getting used to the organ and it's behaviour. Legato legato legato!!! Don't even try to play staccato yet. This applies mostly on real organs not the electronic ones, but still keep it in mind.
10. The manuals (keyboards) have names by position. On 2 manual organ, the lower manual is called Hauptwerk or Great Manual the top one is called Swell because the stops are in wooden box which can be closed/open. On 3 manual organ normally the middle manual is the Hauptwerk and the top manual is the Swell, the lowest manual is called Ruckpositive or Choir in English. The 4 manual is called Solo in English and the 5th is called Echo in English, those two are the top ones. So the layout in 5 manual organ would be ECHO, SOLO, SWELL, GREAT, CHOIR.

Hope this helps, now where's my bed.

Btw. feel free to ask if you need some more info.

falcon1 - yup, I'm organist

[franz_]

Thank you very much falcon1, I learned a lot from your post.
Now, actually, to begin organ, it is much easier to play on an electric one?
And another practical question: Is it been done to play music after 1850? I associate organ always with Bach of course.

[falcon1]

Thank you very much falcon1, I learned a lot from your post.
Now, actually, to begin organ, it is much easier to play on an electric one?
And another practical question: Is it been done to play music after 1850? I associate organ always with Bach of course.

You're welcome.

Yes, there are music after 1850 hehe... for example Olivier Messiaen, Charles-Marie Widor, Félix-Alexandre Guilmant and many more.

Yes, it's easier to start on electronic organ but you don't get the same kick out if it - Nothing more satisfying than playing on full organ with 32' stops rumbling in the pedals hehe...

[richy321]

Whatever you do, do NOT try to fake your way.  It would be like a bad traffic accident.  If you truly love classical organ, you need to first, develop basic piano technique, then take organ lessons and work your tail off for several years.  On the piano one can be careless with your lifting of the notes after the strike but with the organ each note has to be held for the full written value then lifted cleanly, in as many as 4 or 5 voices simultaneously.  The finishing touch comes with learning how to articulate, i.e., control the full range of touches between legato and staccato, 

To me, nothing is more thrilling than the pipe organ masterfully played, but on the other hand, nothing is more gruesome than what happens when the player is not trained in the instrument.   

[thalbergmad]

Nothing more satisfying than playing on full organ with 32' stops rumbling in the pedals hehe...

My next door nieghbour would probably not agree.

Thal

[berrt]

My next door nieghbour would probably not agree.

Thal

You live in a church, thal?

[jamie0168]

I've had lessons on piano for 13 years now and I tried organ lessons for two years about 5 years ago. Let me just say, the organ has got to be the hardest instrument in the world to play CORRECTLY. Sure, any pianist can go and play a Chopin Waltz on an organ, but that's not "playing" the organ, it's "playing  with" an organ.
Organs are especially hard for pianists because there is no damper pedal. All legato must be achieved through the fingers alone and the fact that the sound immediately stops when the key is released. And yeah, adding the pedals CORRECTLY is another adventure in heck! If you want to play the organ correctly (which I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to), then keep your piano and organ sections of your mind completely separate.

[blu217]

I remember very little about my semester of organ lessons during college, and I'm quite thankful for the lack of acute recall. But the gist was:

I had to buy these $35, ugly, orthopedic-looking black shoes with felt bottoms to play in. The organ teacher would launch into a coniption fit if I appeared at class ready to pump those pedals with my rubber-soled tennis shoes.

It was like playing the piano with your feet. It was like playing with your feet and hands at the same time. The foot pedals I found to be a cruel joke.

It was a most unsexy instrument, and those horrific Mary Jane organ shoes only underscored its... churchiness. I remember an organ-major acquaintance gave a brief recital and it was an  odd visual as I was accustomed to the usual black concernt grand/student pianist in profile routine. They opened some secret compartment in the recital hall to reveal this behemoth pipe affair, he walked out, sat with his back to us and proceeded to pound out a rather impressive performance, feet flying furiously and accurately on the pedals. I had no particular skill at the thing, so I had to respect it.

I was relieved when I'd finally fulfilled that credit requirement and could happily return my complete focus where it belonged--to beautiful piano works executed on glorious Steinway grands. After an hour practicing organ, my Chopin Scherzo in B minor felt downright pornographic--and very pleasantly so.

[timothy42b]

This is where the novice has a distinct edge.

Since I'm not very good at piano, the difference organ makes is not so obvious!  <grin>

This weekend will mark my fourth Sunday pretending to be a church organist.  The more I play the more I realize what I don't know, especially about length of notes.  The pressure's on now, because this week's hymns are very fast, and well enough known the congregation will whip through them;  I have no choice but to keep up.  And since I got them late, only two days to learn them. 

I am learning something though.  With my sixth hymn played in real time, something clicked and I started hearing the singing and trying to adjust to it.  Before that I was just desparately struggling for the notes. 

For those of you who really play organ:  how much do you use the expression pedal?  Do you mark the line of the music with crescendo and decrescendo?  Or do you use more of a terraced dynamics approach? 

[amanfang]

(I do not have tons of experience either, but I will tell you what I do anyway....)

For hymns, I do not use the expression pedal at all during the verse.  Depending on the hymn, I *might* get louder (either through the pedal, or a registration change) on the last verse, which tends to be the more "triumphant" one anyway.  But it depends on the hymn.  Makes it a bit more interesting to change between, but in general, I don't mess with the sound during each verse. 

[timothy42b]

I had a strange thought this weekend practicing Sunday's hymns. 

(which went very well, by the way, I hardly stumbled, and could have played considerably faster if there'd been need.  I'm still doing simplified harmonies, but may attempt the real notes one of these days) 

Piano has keys with mass and inertia, and takes some force to get them down.  Organ keys are much lighter.

However, it seems like once the keys are down, piano keys stay there, and organ keys are trying to spring back up and tire your forearms.  Since organ keys must be held down for the full note value, you end up getting more tired on organ.

Perhaps this just reflects bad technique or misunderstanding on my part.  But I worked an hour Saturday  morning on organ, and noticed the keys pressing back, and more fatigue than I expected.  I tried to play relaxed with gravity drop to the best of my limited understanding! <grin>. 

[bartolomeo_]

This weekend will mark my fourth Sunday pretending to be a church organist
...

For those of you who really play organ:  how much do you use the expression pedal?  Do you mark the line of the music with crescendo and decrescendo?  Or do you use more of a terraced dynamics approach? 

Keep up the good work.  The world needs more organists.

I don't ordinarly use the expression pedal for hymns or baroque works except maybe to balance an unusually loud swell stop against the great.  In that case I would move it to the right spot and leave it there.  For 19th and 20th century music, I use the pedal as marked in the score.

Much of the dynamic change is in the writing where stop changes or manual changes are indicated, or is implicit in the music where voices enter and leave.

Be sure you're playing organ music.  Some places to start: Oxford "Wedding music for manuals" even if you're not playing weddings.  Wayne Leupold Editions "First Organ Book."  Any edition of the Pachelbel toccatas (which are nothing like the infamous canon in d).

Hymn playing actually done properly is incredibly difficult.  You're supposed to play the bass in the pedal and switch the alto part between hands so as to better be able to maintain complete legato.  There are various nonobvious rules about the handling of repeated notes and whether and how to break them.  And then you're supposed to be able to play either the tenor or the soprano part on a separate manual taking the other two parts in one hand, so you can emphasize a particular line with trumpets etc.

[caperflutist]

I love organ, though I am a beginner (1 year). I am finally getting legato regularily:) I am playing various Bach (one movt from trio sonatas, little preludes and fugues, various preludes), and stanford short preludes/postludes and nilson pedal exercises mostly, but I read through hymns regularily

[timothy42b]

The pastor just had to have Onward Christian Soldiers this Sunday. 

It took me about an hour to rewrite the harmonies into inversions I could reach that sounded somewhat like the original.  Just can't get away with I-V-I on something this familiar.  And that made it difficult enough it took me about four hours work to be able to play it at tempo.

Then he got carried away with the sermon and talked past his time.  He cut the hymn to one verse.  Maybe 45 seconds.  Hee, hee. 

I didn't know about separating the tenor, thanks.  Beyond me at this stage, but I see where I have to go.  I did try for the bass on pedals, but couldn't get it playable. 

[thalbergmad]

You live in a church, thal?

Nah, i have got one of those home organs.

2 manual with 30 stops and full pedal board.

Probably meant for a church, but managed to get it into my front room. The delivery man laid down a railway track on my carpet to wheel it through.

Great fun, everyone should have one.

Thal

[timothy42b]

I've just changed offices, and in the new location I'm across the street from a chapel.

I had visions of lunch hour practice sessions, so I sneaked in to check it out.

They threw away the organ.  They bought a Yamaha Clavinova and a sound system, you can press the "organ" voice if you need traditional.

So I pressed the "fantasy" button.

Nope.  Nothing happened, must be broken. 

[invictious]

I find playing the organ much easier when I look like J.S. Bach.

I buy a wig, put on some makeup, grow some fat, eat a lot of pork, have more fat, have a lot of children, and putting on a pigface helps so much.

[bartolomeo_]

The pastor just had to have Onward Christian Soldiers this Sunday. 

It took me about an hour to rewrite the harmonies into inversions I could reach that sounded somewhat like the original.  Just can't get away with I-V-I on something this familiar.  And that made it difficult enough it took me about four hours work to be able to play it at tempo.

Then he got carried away with the sermon and talked past his time.  He cut the hymn to one verse.  Maybe 45 seconds.  Hee, hee. 

I didn't know about separating the tenor, thanks.  Beyond me at this stage, but I see where I have to go.  I did try for the bass on pedals, but couldn't get it playable. 

That's typical.  At least he didn't cut it completely.

Playing bass on the pedals is the way to go because it frees your left hand to do so much more.  It's hard to get out of the habit of reaching for the bass notes with your left hand, though, and many never make the transition.

[bartolomeo_]

I love organ, though I am a beginner (1 year). I am finally getting legato regularily:) I am playing various Bach (one movt from trio sonatas, little preludes and fugues, various preludes), and stanford short preludes/postludes and nilson pedal exercises mostly, but I read through hymns regularily

We shall hope that you aren't playing the Bach legato.  It's supposed to be in articulated style with space before the strong beats.