Should a piano teacher also be a music teacher?

[knew bee]

Hello again everyone

I had my third piano lesson yesterday, and I'm not too sure about my teacher.

I asked if it's common to have an Augmented 4th in a minor piece (I've been working on Fur Elise and the D# made me wonder).

He didn't know what I meant by the term, and when I explained I was referring to the D#, he simply said "Oh don't worry about that. It's just  a chromatic note"
I think I get what he was saying, that, as there was no underlying chord, there was nothing for the D# to clash with and so it's OK to use it, but he seemed a little confused by the question?

Later, he was talking about minor scales and he showed me the "ascending minor scale" and the "descending minor scale". He played them both in C, so I managed to  recognise them as the harmonic minor and natural minor scales.
Although he was familiar with the term "harmonic minor" he'd never heard of the term "natural minor". I explained that it's the same notes as the major scale, but starting on the 6th degree, and he vaugely recalled that it was"one of those old Church modes that aren't really used anymore"

I thought every musician should be familiar with modes? Or is it just that they're more common with guitarists than pianists?

I know that most composers use harmonic minor when ascending and natural minor when descending, so I can see where he got his names from, but should I be worried by his apparent lack of theoritical knowledge?

I've heard him play and he is really good. He passed his Grade 8 exam around 5 years ago and has given me a few good tips and practice suggestions.

I'm not sure if I'm just being a bit of a snob and am expecting too much from him. The only other pianist I've known was my old music teacher at school and perhaps I'm making unfair comparisons.

Anyone have any thoughts or comments?

As always, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to reply.


KB.

[leucippus]

I personally believe that the answer to your question, "Should a piano teacher also be a music teacher?" is entirely up to what the student wants and/or needs.

For example, I would love to find a violin teacher who is not a music teacher.  I'm not interested in paying someone to give me their slant on music.  I'm solely interested in learning the physical techniques for playing the violin.  I'll deal with the music on my own.

I feel the same way about the piano myself too.  I'm only interested in someone helping me with the technique of playing and I'm not the slightest bit interested in their opinions or knowledge of music.  Therefore I certainly don't want to pay for the music aspect of it.  Why pay for what I don't want?

On the other hand, some people prefer to learn music and how to play an instrument simultaneously.  For them it is important that their instrument teacher is also a music teacher.

So I don't see the question as having an absolute answer.  I think it all depends on what the student wants to be taught.

By the way, having a lack of knowledge of music does not in any way inhibit a person from being a great instrument instructor IMHO.  The physical techniques of mastering the instrument, and understanding all the subtles of music are two entirely different things.  In fact, there are far too many music teachers who teach instruments yet they have very little actual knowledge of the best way to play them.  I personally think that is very common and one reason why many people shy away from getting an instructor.   They go to them with the hope of being shown the proper way to play the instrument but instead they get music lessons!  Like duh?  That's NOT what they want.

[pianistimo]

maybe instead of 'should' - it's 'can.' 

i think a piano teacher can also be a music teacher and agree with leucippus that some performers don't really know theory and composition.  some people take lessons with 'students' because the lessons are cheaper and they learn generally the same things - without the added bonus of the teacher knowing all the answers to their questions (and perhaps getting off on tangents faster than with a pro).

take your average teacher.  you ask a question - they give you a month's worth of answer.  you ask a performer and they switch places with you and show you how and then you keep going as quickly as possible.  they probably save the talking for other times unless you have a theory question and then it's a one or two line answer.  you have to listen really closely because they don't repeat themselves.  (just kidding) actually, when i don't get something - he'll say it a different way.  but, have you ever had a teacher that doesn't say it a different way -and just increases the volume of their voice?  it's like 'say, yes - you idiot - even if you don't understand.'

what i found most helpful was to take a separate theory class. then, when you teach, you have a foundation of knowledge that covers the bases of most student questions.

 

[Bob]

Hmmm....

I suppose if the teacher doesn't know a lot of theory, they might play well and you can still learn how to play well from them.

(Philosophically, yes the "Piano teacher" should be a "music teacher," teaching music and not just an instrument.)

I don't think a traditional classical musician needs to know the modes extremely well.

Might just be a mistake, but.... The harmonic minor scale is for thinking of harmonies (raised 7th step).  Ascending melodic minor goes up (raised 6 and 7), descending (natural) minor goes down.

The guy could just have another term for "natural" minor.

Knowing the three forms of minor is basic music theory though.  Who knows?  could have been a bad day or miscommunication.  Having someone working on Fur Elise ask about augmented fourths might make me think that the student is diving into the theory a lot or coming up with their own theories.  The teacher should know the definition of an augment fourth -- They might not see one immediately in the piece though.

I would think a teacher should have a basic knowledge of music theory -- intervals and scales included.

[m1469]

My short answer is : No. 

In my opinion, a teacher's real job is to teach a student how to learn.

It is a false assumption to think that thoeretical knowledge is equivalent to musical understanding.  Though they can be related, they are not one in the same.  Their relationship together is something like the sun and its sunrays, one eminating from the other.  Theory is just a component of music just as sunrays are a component of the sun.


m1469

[Bob]

I think they know basic theory though.

Being able to instantly analyze (or "read") a piece helps out performance and preparation a lot.  If you can see complex chords and relationships that helps.

[ingagroznaya]

In my opinion, a teacher's real job is to teach a student how to learn.

Finally we agree on something.

Theory is huge when it comes to playing any instrument.  I have always learned it in another class with another teacher. One can't teach sun without rays.  To me it was always outside in, instead of inside out. Useless.

[quasimodo]

Finally we agree on something.

Theory is huge when it comes to playing any instrument.  I have always learned it in another class with another teacher. One can't teach sun without rays.  To me it was always outside in, instead of inside out. Useless.

Mind to elaborate? I don't understand exactly.

[counterpoint]

Hi Knew Bee 

I think, your examples with the D# in Elise and the melodic minor down scale
are only squabbles about terminology. It is clear, that the D# is part of a slow trill and therefore isn't part of a defined chord. In german, we say "Wechselnote", I don't know what's this in english.

In melodic minor upwards step 6 and 7 are raised (like in the major scale), but downwards they are naturalized (like in natural minor, also known as aeolian)

To your question:

I think, every musician should know about the theory on which music is build up.
A piano teacher should be a musician and hence he should know these things.
I guess, your piano teacher knows them very well, he only uses some other words.

[thierry13]

Well ... the fact that your piano teacher is grade 8 ... is a bit explaining things. You should look for a real teacher ... not a student a bit more advanced than you, who seems not to take it as seriously as you.