Competitions.... right or wrong

[franzliszt2]

What is the general opinion here about piano competitions. I've been looking into a lot of them, and reading reviews, and the general opinions in magazines is that they are bad. I have attended a couple as a listener, and one was the London international, and I've seen the leeds. To be honest... out of them all there was bout 1 who was impressive, I mean some were 26 plus and there playing was just not good, techncally good, but so boring and schooled. These people will NEVER be proffesional musicians, so why do competitions promise to grant them this? Like a year of concerts, record labels etc..

What I'm saying is, that for the amount of competitions that exist, are they worth anything anymore? Does winning the leeds or london or anyother big competition actually do anything except give you a title? The guy who won Leed s last time had won a lot of competions, so why on earth was he doing another one?? And that Sodi Braide guy is now 28, and has been entering competions every year since he was 20!! What is that all about, I mean really, after 8 years one should call it a day don't you think?

On the plus side, I suppose they get you to play new repertpoire, experience etc.. and a lot of great people have cam out of them such as Perahia, Cliburn etc..

Please post your opinions on competitions 

[thalbergmad]

I cannot understand why someone would win a major competition and then want to do others.

I stopped being interested in competitions some years ago. I remember a few years back in the Leeds, when the TV presenters were beside themselves with fury at the result.

When 5 out of the 6 finalists played the Schumann concerto, that was the end for me.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i've never been to one - and only watched the tchaikovsky (1895?) and van cliburn last year.  i thought they had some good contestants.  i'd rather watch a piano competition than american idol or something (even if the contestants were poor).  i think all competitions are somewhat arbitrary, though, and still like to listen to the second and third place winners afterwards.  sometimes it's a surprise as to who will actually go farther.  the person who won - or the person who just keeps on going for the love of music.

if i had an opportunity to be in a competition - i'd take it - but not for the competition so much as to just test myself as to what i could handle.  of course, taking time off to have a family isn't really the norm for concert pianists.  but, i'm thinking late 40's and into 50's.  something to do.  keeps one out of trouble.  you can basically just do a lot of free stuff if you can't find contracts, right?  so you can still be involved in music even if others are saying you're not good enough.

i think competitions challenge you to see what is possible and what you CAN do.  would you do this type of work if there wasn't a competition?  probably not.  (learn two piano concertos etc etc).   i don't know which competition is the 'hardest' but memorizing a totally new piece in two weeks sounds really difficult to me.  when to sleep.  must be like a doctor on call 24 hours for two weeks.  i bet they're really tired at the end.

[franz_]

I only watch the Queen Elisabeth Competition because I'm Belgian. All finalists there REALLY can play the piano. I like it for their playing, not for the concept 'competition'. I don't think music is a competition.

[ted]

I appear to lack the competitive gene altogether. I don't like competition in anything, more particularly in the arts, which in their nature are very subjective. Competition presupposes some sort of objective, linear scale exists onto which the efforts of people can be placed, one being judged either greater than or less than another - the equivalent of a score in sports and games.  Therefore it is logical that music competitions end up aligned mostly to those aspects of playing which can be linearly assessed - accuracy, dexterity, speed and so on. Indeed, this is what seems to occur. It appears to me that music is not simply a collection of measurable linear subsets but a profoundly multi-dimensional experience, dependent as much, perhaps more, on the listening mind as on the composer or player.

But if people enjoy them, learn things from the other players, and are not unduly affected by winning or losing then why not, I suppose ?

[quasimodo]

i've (...) only watched the tchaikovsky (1895?)

Come on, you're not that old  !

[pianochild]

Ive entered loads of piano competitions, i just recently done one. I havent entered huge ones, but city ones, and one county.

The reason i like doing competitions, is because you get a great boost when you are playing and you feel really good after. It gives you a chance to show a crowd of people what you can do and you can socialise with other players and hear other people play, i think competitions are RIGHT. Who ever doesent is a bit of a hide away and only lets friends and family see them play, which is dissapointing when you have learned piano for years, i am surprised no replies have really supported them yet?? I also luike doing concerts, i done a few!

[franzliszt2]

But to say someone who doesn't do them is a hide away is a bit unfair. I've never done any competitions, but I've done lots and lots of concerts. I see a concert as a form of sharing music with others, and I always go into them thinking. "I'm playing great music for an audience, and if they don't like how I play them stuff 'em!" But I think a competition takes that out of it, I would feel as if I'm playing against other people, and I would certainly be influenced by others. I've noticed distinct differences between pianists who enter competitions on a regular basis to the pianist who doesn't. In fact I must say that about all instruments. If you look around the competitions you soon notice it is the same people, and those who win will either make it big, or won't. I HONESTLY think that a competition will not help a great pianist become famous. My reason for this is...Would Murray Perahia be famous if he hadn't won the Leeds? in my opinion yes. Would Beresovsky be famous if he hadn't won the Tchaikovsky? yes.  etc..  Talents like that don't need to enter a competition, all it does is helps them on the way, but the inevitable will happen, people will pay to see a great artist, not someone who has won a competition.

I read a very good book by Charles Rosen called Piano notes, and that has a chapter on contests and conservatoires, and that is very interessting, I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it.

[ramseytheii]

One gets the impression that in the past competitions counted for more, and perhaps were not undertaken so lightly.  These days there are hundreds of them!  And there are people who make careers out of playing competitions, winning first prizes or even less, winning big ones and then still playing smaller ones, winning big ones and playing bigger ones, always competitions. 

Why?  The problem I think is that they are ultimately dead ends.  A big competition (such as the Van Cliburn, Cleveland etc) is going to offer one, maybe two CDs, some years (usually 2) of management, and cash prize.  But after that, the CD recording contract and management contract is going to the next winner.  That is it, unless along the way you happened to make a great impression some other agency or label.  But nowadays with everyone as a competition winner, there are so many that practically everybody can win at least one, who cares?  No offense to those that did it and got a prize.  That's great for them, but for the rest of the world it has become less of a mark. 

The people that make copmetition careers are getting a lot of limited exposure, but oftentimes it is only as being associated with that particular competition, and soon will come to an end.

The results can be surprising of course.  I heard A. Kobrin, who apaprently has won or won among the top prizes in some of the world's biggest, Van Cliburn, Hammamatsu, Busoni? I think, and others.  Perhaps there is still time for this talent to develop.  But I heard a Beethoven op.110 that seemed to lack all depth whatsoever, treating the piece like something extra-subtle of Ravel, with zero crescendos, a constantly identical beat, and always a "pretty" sound ("Ah, I, too, could have had velvet paws!").  So one wonders, on what merits are these prizes awarded?  And how is the process done?  wasn't Claudio Frank on the Van Cliburn jury?  Surely he would never have passed this.

It seems to me on the other hand, that those who do not necessarily have success in competitions can still have success on the concert stage.  The stage and the competition are frankly two different worlds.  On the stage, it is possible in a concert to have mistakes, or memory slips, and still have a successful outcome.  I do not believe it is possible in a competition.  On the stage, if one messes up, one has the time to make people listen again; at a competition, if one messes up, the listening is over.  It's quite a cruel and unmusical process, and actually in these ways, totally unrelated to the "real world," if the stage can be called a real world and not vice versa. 

I have seen many famous pianists, not even necessarily "great" ones, who concertize for a living, make absurd mistakes.  Clifford Curzon once forgot to play the development of Schubert D960 1st mvmt, and ended up in the recapitulation, and I am not joking.  Jerome Rose seems to have memory slips in every concert.  I heard a concert of Robert Taub, who seems to have a big career, and he had slips in every piece except the modern ones, when he used the score.  And yet there they are, (or were), giving concert after concert.  So to those who fail in competitions:  cheer up!  You might still play better than somebody who actually gets stage time.

Walter Ramsey


Walter Ramsey

[zheer]

   Right for some wrong for others would be my short answer to this topic. I guess if you are young , talented have worked years at the piano therefore developed a massive repetoire and have newly graduated from a music conservatory or uni. Entering national and intenational piano competition is'nt going to hurt unless you are the nerves type, anyway  way  its a sure way of knowing haw prepared you are. Think haw exciting it might be to learn all these new pieces and to have this chance to play for other on stage.

[ramseytheii]

A crucial addendum to my previous post cocnerns the difference between a concert and a competition performance.  It has to do with the participation of those who are listening.  Judges participate only insofar as they can be critical; no matter how sweeping the performance, they will hold themselves back and not allow themselves to listen with pleasure, and be moved.  A real audience, on the other hand, will participate, will contribute towards the essential mental dialogue that is a performance.  In this way, I think competitions can do a great deal of harm, because people put spiritually their best foot forward, and often times receive zero response.  "Thank you, next," is all that one will get.  And I think definitely the playign in competitions has started to reflect that; pianists as a species have "evolved" to the point where the spiritual in music comes second, since frankly, it doesn't get any response in a competitoin to begin with. 

For those that can separate the two spheres I think it is remarkable; I think A. Kobrin is a good example of one who cannot.  Even with a real audience, who desires to participate in this mental dialogue, and desires a spiritual experience, he still plays as if before a panel of judges.  There are different styles of course, and we all allow him his, but I cannot help but see his playing as a victim of this whole system, one which negates the spiritual and rewards the mechanical.

Walter Ramsey

[rc]

Ramsey:  I like your point of how the audiences purpose can warp the performer. 

A judging audience is good to get feedback and learn from, as in a teacher or this festival I went in earlier this year where the adjucator would scribble down all kinds of advice and compliments for your playing.  Very useful.

But music is not a sport...  The idea of music competitions is misguided.  That said, given the opprotunity I would enter a competition, just because I'm in the habit of taking every performance opprotunity I find .

An audience for pleasure is the entire point of learning piano: to share the enjoyment of great music.  I'm not really interested in anything else.