Opus Comicbookibalisticum

[indutrial]

I never have respect for fantastic devotion; in fact, it scares me to death.

I've given far too much money to the "casusa de la Sorabji" so I'm trying to set the score (ha!) straight like I promised I would when I got banned from the Sorabji Forum (the forum, ironically that I originally started). I will, and have stated, do everything in my power to end performances, sales, etc. of Sorabji propaganda.

Best,

RYGUILLIAN

My post may be patronizing and stodgy, but your past few contributions are just seesawing between bitchiness and douchebaggery (to use Pies's term from another thread). Why reopen a thread if all you want to do is play stupid games.

[ryguillian]

My post may be patronizing and stodgy, but your past few contributions are just seesawing between bitchiness and douchebaggery (to use Pies's term from another thread). Why reopen a thread if all you want to do is play stupid games.

Never ask me for a score again you stupid bastard.

[indutrial]

Never ask me for a score again you stupid bastard.

Now now now, let's not get too sensitive 

[pies]

a

[ctrastevere]

Meaning no disrespect to anyone, I admit to being somewhat confused about some of the responses to this thread regarding sharing of recordings. On this thread the attitudes of all the members (most notably Jonathan Powell and indutrial) seem to be a lot different than this thread suggests. I am in no way condoning illegal activities, especially at the expense of hard-working artists and performers, but don't the views expressed in that thread and this one seem slightly inconsistent?

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone who has posted here, as I realize views can change, and I can completely understand the frustration on the part of Jonathan Powell knowing the amount of effort he invests in learning this monstrously difficult music.

Mr. Powell -- you are an outstanding pianist, one of the finest I know of. I own four of your Sorabji CDs, and intend on buying all of your future releases. Please know that there are MANY of us out here who will continue to support you in your endeavor to bring exquisite music to a wider audience. To think that anything like this could prevent you from continuing to do so is a horrifying thought. At least most of the recordings that were at one point available for free have expired. So keep the new ones coming! 

[indutrial]

Meaning no disrespect to anyone, I admit to being somewhat confused about some of the responses to this thread regarding sharing of recordings. On this thread the attitudes of all the members (most notably Jonathan Powell and indutrial) seem to be a lot different than this thread suggests. I am in no way condoning illegal activities, especially at the expense of hard-working artists and performers, but don't the views expressed in that thread and this one seem slightly inconsistent?

I'll admit that I tried to get somebody to post a link to one of those discs a few years back. I had already owned the Charles Hopkins recording of Gulistan and I wanted to hear Powell's newer one. I admitted to the fact that I dabbled in downloading and sharing a lot more in the past. I still don't really have too much of a problem with people sharing a disc here or there, but it should done with a bit more delicacy. For instance, the most recent post of that very thread is a little annoying because the user is asking for somebody to post a Sorabji recording that came out only a few months ago. That's a bit too soon and it's a lot different than my recent requests on that site for OOP discs from the Olympia label and barely-extant recordings of the Milhaud string quartets. Those are either wholly unavailable or only sold by used dealers on Amazon who charge extortionary rates ($50 for an unwrapped CD, no thanks!) My regrettable 'Gulistan' request was unfulfilled and I ended up buying it from Records International.

I don't quite see how Jonathan's views are any different at all. He offered recordings of his own there, but all of them were self-produced recital recordings from his own collection, not the discs that he's put out through Altarus. In fact, he made a few comments on that thread suggesting that people actually buy copies of his Sonata 4 disc set instead of stealing it off the thread. Thankfully, after he turned up in his own defense, people stopped being so blatant about it.

My more extreme views as of late are directed more towards people who I commit the heinous act of sharing for the sake of sharing, which is far worse in places outside of GFF (though some are there too). The worst culprits of this mindless and robotic crusade are sites like avaxhome.ru and other blogs out there that post massive amounts of music to no discernable end, almost always in lossless formats. To me, it's abusive and out-of-control, and while I'm not in anyway in favor of bullshittery like the RIAA and people who abuse copyright laws for profit (UNIVERSAL EDITION!!!), I think that more responsibility and better ethics could be employed by the people posting (who seem to just post constantly). There are some great blogs that I've cited here on other threads that take a much more measured approach to the idea of sharing and disseminating recordings (i.e. focusing on OOP recordings, rarities, vinyl-rips of discs that never made it to CD).

Now stop stalking my posts on GFF or eventually you might happen upon my less-than-tasteful contributions in the Sewers subforum   

[ahinton]

Good to see some common sense and decency on this thread. Yes, Ryan has purchased the occasional score from us in the past and if he has made efforts to secure performances of Sorabji's works, then all power to him. So why would he now write as he does? - and why would he welcome less rather than more new Sorabji recordings? If that's not inconsistent, I don't know what inconsistency is. Ryan also managed to get himself banned from the Sorabji forum - the only member ever to have done so.

The fact that recordings and sc ores are being pirated does not reduce the legitimate demand for them; in fact, whilst I am dead against such activity, the very fact that it takes place at all demonstrates that people actually want this music, so more and more people will and do acquire it legally. What does that say for Ryan's "power" to curtail Sorabjian activity? Thirty years ago, there were no recordings of Sorabji's music, the few published works of his were going out of print and there were no new editions of his scores other than one of the Trois Pastiches. There's plenty more work to be done, of course, but a brief glance at the catalogue of works on the Sorabji website at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk shows just how much has been achieved already and there is a great deal more in the pipeline.

I very much appreciate the support that has been expressed for Jonathan Powell here and can assure him - if he needs such assurance - that he need take no notice of the few noisemakers around these parts; Sorabji himself used to quote Pope's

But let me flap this bug with gilded wings
This painted child of dirt that stinks and stings.

and he once went farther by adding, in his own words,

Insects that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sting.

Seems appropriate here, methinks...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

On the record piracy issue, I wish to remind anyone that has any doubt about it that almost every Altarus CD that's ever been produced is still available today, so the issue of "sharing" OOP Altarus discs simply isn't an issue; since many of the recordings of Sorabji are on that label, this is surely of no small relevance.

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Now stop stalking my posts on GFF or eventually you might happen upon my less-than-tasteful contributions in the Sewers subforum   

Haha, your posts are fun to stalk. Mine on the other hand are just pathetic most of the time.

Alistair, I have a question. Why does it take so long for new releases on Altarus to come out on Amazon? Is there anywhere else to get them, besides directly from you? I plan on getting that Sorabji disk with Un Nido di Scatole and the new Feinberg disk, maybe.

[ahinton]

Alistair, I have a question. Why does it take so long for new releases on Altarus to come out on Amazon? Is there anywhere else to get them, besides directly from you?

That's two questions! The answer to the first is that I have no idea and that to the second is Records International or any decent classical CD retailer (who may not necessarily stock them but can easily order them).

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

Haha, your posts are fun to stalk. Mine on the other hand are just pathetic most of the time.

Alistair, I have a question. Why does it take so long for new releases on Altarus to come out on Amazon? Is there anywhere else to get them, besides directly from you? I plan on getting that Sorabji disk with Un Nido di Scatole and the new Feinberg disk, maybe.

Just order the Altarus discs from Records International over the phone. The guy who runs that business is incredibly nice and really on top of his game when it comes to esoteric classical records - a businessman worth patronizing again and again!!! He's helped me get some great discs from overseas without any headaches or wild shipping costs. Besides, he always has the Altarus discs before everybody else. Amazon is good if you want to get a used copy and save a little $$$.

P.S. you'll wish you never stalked my posts when you find the one about 'toilet backloggery' (probably one of the best topic titles ever)

[ryguillian]

The fact that recordings and sc ores are being pirated does not reduce the legitimate demand for them;

But it could certainly reduce the legitimate supply for them.

B.,

Ry.

[Etude]

That's two questions! The answer to the first is that I have no idea and that to the second is Records International or any decent classical CD retailer (who may not necessarily stock them but can easily order them).

Best,

Alistair

I have another question.  What the hell happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of Sonata no. 3?

[ryguillian]

On the record piracy issue, I wish to remind anyone that has any doubt about it that almost every Altarus CD that's ever been produced is still available today, so the issue of "sharing" OOP Altarus discs simply isn't an issue; since many of the recordings of Sorabji are on that label, this is surely of no small relevance.

Best,

Alistair

What about the Hamelin/Sophie-Carmen Eckhardt-Gramatte set? ??

Here's why piracy is good: one can buy a CD and rip it thus allowing other people to acquire the music without buying the media. So instead of 100 people buying a CD maybe 1 person will... so now we have a lot of money left over to do other things with it. Thus, with sharing, everybody is better off (but maybe a few people [artists, etc.] aren't as good off as they could be, but I tend to side with the other people. If the artists aren't satisfied they're more than welcome to find other work.

Best,

Ryan.

Ryan.

[ryguillian]

I have another question.  What the hell happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of Sonata no. 3?

Tellef saw the light.

[ahinton]

But it could certainly reduce the legitimate supply for them.

I have no idea on what basis you make that assumption, but I can assure you that, in practice, it doesn't do anything of the sort, at least in our experience (and I doubt that we're any exception here); we supply more now than ever we did (in part, of course, because the increasing number of editions and recordings mean that there are more items to supply).

It's always better to make assumptions based upon factual experience.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I have another question.  What the hell happened to Tellef Johnson's recording of Sonata no. 3?

I don't know.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Tellef saw the light.

Leaving aside whether or not this remark is supposed to convey the notion that Tellef Johnson has gone all religious, are you telling us something that you know from Mr Johnson himself or is this just another of your unfounded and unresearched assumptions?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

What about the Hamelin/Sophie-Carmen Eckhardt-Gramatte set? ??

That, I believe, is the only Altarus CD that has not been reissued, although I am in no position to tell you why that is.

Here's why piracy is good: one can buy a CD and rip it thus allowing other people to acquire the music without buying the media. So instead of 100 people buying a CD maybe 1 person will... so now we have a lot of money left over to do other things with it. Thus, with sharing, everybody is better off (but maybe a few people [artists, etc.] aren't as good off as they could be, but I tend to side with the other people. If the artists aren't satisfied they're more than welcome to find other work.

Good for whom? Were there to be sufficient piracy to cause havoc in the legitimate recording industry, what would be the end result? Record companies who make the kind of thing that you might want to steal will go to the wall, following which the product will not be there to be ripped in the first place. The same applies to the artists that you patronise with your comment here - if they did all go and find other work, they'd not be providing the material that you and others want. So who'd benefit from that? No one, of course. Your short-sightedness is quite remarkable. There's always someone who wants something for nothing, of course and, for such people, the cost of provision of what they want to steal is entirely immaterial. Have you any idea of the cost of producing some of the kinds of things that you want to "share"v(which, in this conext, is merely a convenient euphemism for "steal")? If you do, you'd surely realise that if those who outlay those costs cannot get them back and make a profit, you'll no longer get what you want.

Ryan.

Ryan.

One's enough; we heard you the first time...

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

That, I believe, is the only Altarus CD that has not been reissued, although I am in no position to tell you why that is.
Good for whom? Were there to be sufficient piracy to cause havoc in the legitimate recording industry, what would be the end result? Record companies who make the kind of thing that you might want to steal will go to the wall, following which the product will not be there to be ripped in the first place. The same applies to the artists that you patronise with your comment here - if they did all go and find other work, they'd not be providing the material that you and others want. So who'd benefit from that? No one, of course. Your short-sightedness is quite remarkable. There's always someone who wants something for nothing, of course and, for such people, the cost of provision of what they want to steal is entirely immaterial. Have you any idea of the cost of producing some of the kinds of things that you want to "share"v(which, in this conext, is merely a convenient erphemism for "steal")? If you do, you'd surely realise that if those who outlay those costs cannot get them back and make a profit, you'll no longer get what you want.
One's enough; we heard you the first time...

Best,

AListair

Alistair doesn't know the difference between stealing and copying... you're one of those people who equates sharing with attacking ships...

Jackass.

[ahinton]

Alistair doesn't know the difference between stealing and copying... you're one of those people who equates sharing with attacking ships...

Or so you say. I have never attacked a ship in my life. Even if I had, I would find it very difficult if not impossible to equate that activity with sharing anything, even illicit copies of scores, recordings and the like. Stealing - or misappropriation, if you'd prefer a longer word - is taking something (in these instances scores and recordings) without paying for it and without legal authorisation. It's quite simple, really - artists have copyright in their performances, record companies in their recordings and composers in the work that they write, not just because the law says so but because they are the ones that have expended the necessary energy, time and money in what they have done. When someone comes along and copies (and perhaps also then distributes) such work without due permission or payment, they have stolen what does not belong to them - simple as that. I note - as I'm quite sure others do also - that your remarks on this subject carefully ignore mine earlier about what goes into producing the kinds of things that you and others may want. There's no such thing as a free lunch (CD, score or whatever), in the sense that these things cannot be produced for free. If that is not crystal clear to everyone, I'd be amazed; if you personally choose not to accept it, that's quite a different matter.

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

Alistair doesn't know the difference between stealing and copying... you're one of those people who equates sharing with attacking ships...

Jackass.

These semantic games are just so DAMNED LAME!!!!

Where is any of this Mickey Mouse cockbarf and schoolyard instigating headed?!? I think you just like making Alastair type a lot  I wish he would stop dignifying this performance of yours for his own time's sake.

[ahinton]

These semantic games are just so DAMNED LAME!!!!

Where is any of this Mickey Mouse cockbarf and schoolyard instigating headed?!? I think you just like making Alastair type a lot  I wish he would stop dignifying this performance of yours for his own time's sake.

I guess you're right - there's no point in trying to explain anything rationally to anyone who writes as - well, some people do; perhaps I should instead just go and attack a ship (although I wouldn't even want to do that with so much as a bottle of champagne, as is so often done in this country when a ship is launched for the first time - I'm no great fan of champagne but I hate to see the stuff wasted on the side of a seagoing craft).

In accepting your point, I might add that I'm not so sure that you should be dignifying this particular contributor's posts with the term "performance", but...

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

a

[ahinton]

End the bickering and bring Powell to Chicago.

Don't look at me - I'm not "bickering" with anyone - and I'd be as delighted as anyone for Jonathan Powell to be invited to play in Chicago.

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

End the bickering and bring Powell to Chicago.

I've cowardly deleted what I wrote... lool

Best, Ryan.

[indutrial]

I've cowardly deleted what I wrote... lool

Best, Ryan.

Good thing. It wasn't really funny.

[pies]

what'd he say? 

[indutrial]

what'd he say? 

It wasn't memorable enough to quote verbatim, something about Powell being banned from Chicago...

[ahinton]

It wasn't memorable enough to quote verbatim, something about Powell being banned from Chicago...

...in which case it would obviously be more notable for its absurdity than its memorability. I didn't see what he wrote, by the way, so I cannot comment more directly than that. What is equally obvious is that Mr Powell himself need take less than no notice of all this meaningless and ultimately self-defeating rubbish. He has, as I have observed elsewhere, made a very considerably greater contribution to the Sorabji cause than any other performer in history - not only OC but some 12-13 hours' worth of Sorabji's other piano works, as well as some excellent typeset editions - and he is currently preparing one of Sorabji's most important pieces of all (whose edition, which he himself began to prepare, is now being completed by Alexander Abercrombie, whose already existing typeset Sorabji editions are the fruit of immense labour - most of the 100 Transcendental Studies, Toccata Seconda, Il Grido del Gallino d'Oro, Piano Quintet No. 2 and a completion of the unfinished Passacaglia...). Add to all this activity the fact that another editor - David Carter - has prepared a typeset edition of the entire score of the Jami Symphony and the progress will surely be obvious to anyone.

If there's to be any serious discussion of Sorabji in this thread, I move for its title to be changed to something more obviously reflective of that...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

If there's to be any serious discussion of Sorabji in this thread, I move for its title to be changed to something more obviously reflective of that...

Best,

Alistair

That reminds me. I wanted to ask if there'd been any status updates on the Sequencia Cyclia or Sonata no. 5 typesettings (let alone the huge Symphonic Variations). Those are the later Sorabji works that I'm most interested in checking out someday and I feel obliged to ask about every few months since I'll probably need a big head start for socking away the money for all of that potential copying.

I'm still saving money because I want to order Finnissy's History of Photography in Sound. That score comes in three volumes from an Oxford-related publisher and will definitely be pricy to ship to a Yankee like myself.

Thankfully, another long work I'd been interested in, Rzewski's The Road, was recently completely scanned in for free download at the Werner Icking archive. He'd been contributing his works to that archive for years and I almost messed myself when I learned that The Road (10 hour, 64-part monster piano work) became available for free.

Anyway, I look forward to any updates on the Sorabji front.

[ahinton]

That reminds me. I wanted to ask if there'd been any status updates on the Sequencia Cyclia or Sonata no. 5 typesettings (let alone the huge Symphonic Variations). Those are the later Sorabji works that I'm most interested in checking out someday and I feel obliged to ask about every few months since I'll probably need a big head start for socking away the money for all of that potential copying.

I'm still saving money because I want to order Finnissy's History of Photography in Sound. That score comes in three volumes from an Oxford-related publisher and will definitely be pricy to ship to a Yankee like myself.

Thankfully, another long work I'd been interested in, Rzewski's The Road, was recently completely scanned in for free download at the Werner Icking archive. He'd been contributing his works to that archive for years and I almost messed myself when I learned that The Road (10 hour, 64-part monster piano work) became available for free.

Anyway, I look forward to any updates on the Sorabji front.

I cannot give you any release dates at this point but I can confirm that editing of all three of these works is under way and that the first of them to achieve completion will almost certainly be Sequentia Cyclica; watch this space!

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

...in which case it would obviously be more notable for its absurdity than its memorability. I didn't see what he wrote, by the way, so I cannot comment more directly than that. What is equally obvious is that Mr Powell himself need take less than no notice of all this meaningless and ultimately self-defeating rubbish. He has, as I have observed elsewhere, made a very considerably greater contribution to the Sorabji cause than any other performer in history - not only OC but some 12-13 hours' worth of Sorabji's other piano works, as well as some excellent typeset editions - and he is currently preparing one of Sorabji's most important pieces of all (whose edition, which he himself began to prepare, is now being completed by Alexander Abercrombie, whose already existing typeset Sorabji editions are the fruit of immense labour - most of the 100 Transcendental Studies, Toccata Seconda, Il Grido del Gallino d'Oro, Piano Quintet No. 2 and a completion of the unfinished Passacaglia...). Add to all this activity the fact that another editor - David Carter - has prepared a typeset edition of the entire score of the Jami Symphony and the progress will surely be obvious to anyone.

If there's to be any serious discussion of Sorabji in this thread, I move for its title to be changed to something more obviously reflective of that...

Best,

Alistair

Why do you consider the Sequencia Cyclia one of Sorabji's most important works?

B., Ry.

[ahinton]

Why do you consider the Sequencia Cyclia one of Sorabji's most important works?

When you hear it (if you want to), you may well figure that out for yourself. In it, Sorabji took variation form to what was for him its peak, I would say - and it is curious that he should return to the Dies Iræ theme more than 20 years after writing another substantial (but very different) set of variations on it. The vast range of Sequentia Cyclica takes in a Passacaglia with 100 variations (this is just one of the 27 variations, so variations within variations here), a delicate movement entitled Quasi Debussy, a heavily Spanish-inflected piece (a kind of offshoot of the much earlier Fantaisie Espagnole and Fantasia Ispanica), a short Marcia Funebre and an elaborate and elegant concert waltz (whoever heard of turning the Dies Iræ into a waltz?!), among other things, culminating in the perhaps inevitable fugue, in this case a quintuple one in up to six voices, though not as long as some of his examples in this form. The variations vary in length enormously, some occupying a mere couple of pages or so. Anyway, the plan at present is that the theme and first ten variations will be performed by Jonathan Powell later this year at a semi-informal venue in London but I'm sorry to say that I cannot yet tell you when the entire piece will reach its première. When it does, it will be a shame to think that its dedicatee - the composer's friend Egon Petri - never got to hear it...

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

When you hear it (if you want to), you may well figure that out for yourself. In it, Sorabji took variation form to what was for him its peak, I would say - and it is curious that he should return to the Dies Iræ theme more than 20 years after writing another substantial (but very different) set of variations on it. The vast range of Sequentia Cyclica takes in a Passacaglia with 100 variations (this is just one of the 27 variations, so variations within variations here), a delicate movement entitled Quasi Debussy, a heavily Spanish-inflected piece (a kind of offshoot of the much earlier Fantaisie Espagnole and Fantasia Ispanica), a short Marcia Funebre and an elaborate and elegant concert waltz (whoever heard of turning the Dies Iræ into a waltz?!), among other things, culminating in the perhaps inevitable fugue, in this case a quintuple one in up to six voices, though not as long as some of his examples in this form. The variations vary in length enormously, some occupying a mere couple of pages or so. Anyway, the plan at present is that the theme and first ten variations will be performed by Jonathan Powell later this year at a semi-informal venue in London but I'm sorry to say that I cannot yet tell you when the entire piece will reach its première. When it does, it will be a shame to think that its dedicatee - the composer's friend Egon Petri - never got to hear it...

Best,

Alistair

Sounds pretty epic, even for Sorabji... what's the anticipate duration under J. P.'s hands?

B., Ry.

[ahinton]

Sounds pretty epic, even for Sorabji... what's the anticipate duration under J. P.'s hands?

I'm sorry to have to say that this is a difficult one to answer with any realibility at this stage; my own personal guess would be something in the order of 4½ hours, or maybe a little more, but don't hold me to that as it is really too soon to be certain.

Best,

Alistair