Help with 3,4,5 (un)evenness

[cloches_de_geneve]

It doesn't really come out too much with the romantics but with Bach and Mozart it does: Unevenness in RH 3,4,5,4,3 during runs. It's not horrible but it is audible and it annoyes me.

What excercises can you suggest to correct un-evenness in 3,4,5?

[kriskicksass]

3-4-5 chromatics like in Chopin's 10/2 will do the trick. Also, the first section of the Dohnanyi exercises (#1-12?) are great for strengthening/coordinating the fingers. Don't overdo it, though; 4 and 5 are rather delicate fingers.

[nicco]

Why not use your pieces as excersizes

[pianistimo]

this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head response - but i would not single out those fingers by themselves.  i'd pair them with 1, 2, or 3.  exercises in thirds always helped me, and also doesn't wear out those weakling fingers.

some people take it from the other perspective and start working trills.  i just never could do that.  my fingers are connected by some really strong ligaments or whatever and i couldn't trill a 4,5 if i tried for 100 years.  i mean, i can do a slow one - but i have a very short pinky. it's a little above my fourth finger joint (tip of pinky).  this makes trilling a sort of really curved finger affair.  which i could do if i tried - but i don't want to.

just scale practice alone may not strengthen them as much as the 'thirds' exercises.  my older college prof gave us five-finger exercises (about 10 or 12)

i'll try to remember:

123454321...(in all major/minor/dim7th keys)
121234343545432321...

(you can do these hands apart and then together)

1324354231...
31, 42, 53, 42, 31... 

things like this.  over and over and different variations (say two times 31, 42, 31, 42...then 53, 42, 53, 42)

it helps you quickly go through all the keys with the right sharps and flats, too (just for the five fingers). 

scales are another good exercise - because they do strengthen your fingers after awhile.  my teacher used to have us 'block' scale patterns to the thumb (play all the notes together)

CDE  FGAB  CDE  FGAB  - you play them really solidly up and down the keyboard.  having the other fingers to support your weak ones - means you learn how to 'compensate' and still get a good sound from the 'whole.'  no notes should be weaker sounding than others.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Thanks so much for your replies!!

Just a few additional questions (kriskicksass): Did you find some of the first Dohnany excersies particularly helpful? Can you remember? I had a look at them, they seem well-conceived, I am just a bit worried that they might produce tension in hand, wrist and forearm, which would backfire on evenness.

Pianistimo:

i'll try to remember:

123454321...(in all major/minor/dim7th keys)
121234343545432321...

(you can do these hands apart and then together)

1324354231...
31, 42, 53, 42, 31... 

things like this.  over and over and different variations (say two times 31, 42, 31, 42...then 53, 42, 53, 42)

it helps you quickly go through all the keys with the right sharps and flats, too (just for the five fingers). 

scales are another good exercise - because they do strengthen your fingers after awhile.  my teacher used to have us 'block' scale patterns to the thumb (play all the notes together)

CDE  FGAB  CDE  FGAB  - you play them really solidly up and down the keyboard.  having the other fingers to support your weak ones - means you learn how to 'compensate' and still get a good sound from the 'whole.'  no notes should be weaker sounding than others.

I am not sure I understood what "blocking" means, do you mean you move the thumb and then play the notes-groups for (23) or (234) together?

In terms of thirds excercises: What kind of thirds excercises did you play? Pure excercises or etudes (Czerny, Dohnany, Chopin 25/6 ...)?

[pianistimo]

blocking is playing all the notes together at the same time.  you practice your hand position basically.  for me, the balance of the hand is all in the thumb and second finger - but once your hand is in position - it really doesn't matter which finger you play.  this probably doesn't make sense the first few times - but you'll get what i mean when you try it.  the biggest muscle in my hand is the one between the thumb and the forefinger.  therefore (i hope i'm right) my hand seems heaviest between the first three fingers and lightest for 4-5.  to compensate for the four and five being lighter parts of the hand - practicing block chords and then separating the notes seems to help me quickly get my hand into position - and then i can do anything with the fingers that i want to.

[kriskicksass]

Just a few additional questions (kriskicksass): Did you find some of the first Dohnany excersies particularly helpful? Can you remember? I had a look at them, they seem well-conceived, I am just a bit worried that they might produce tension in hand, wrist and forearm, which would backfire on evenness.

A lack of evenness in 3, 4, and 5 is more often a lack of strength rather than a tension issue. Those exercises are designed to strengthen those fingers and help make them independent, which of course will make them more able to play evenly. (And before anyone comes in here and tells me that finger independence is impossible, save the surgery speech; I know that it's really finger coordination, but I'd rather call it by the more traditional name).