Advice of an Amazing Pianist

[dnephi]

I know a physicist who is absolutely brilliant by the name of Dr. Thomas.  He is also an amateur pianist.  A couple of years ago, he won a competition and played Liszt's Piano Concerto No. 2 in concert.  He has now learned a ton of junk () including Rachmaninoff's 2nd and 3rd piano concerti, both learned by the age of 21.  I wanted to see if he was invincible so I sent him the sheet music for the Mazeppa.  Here is the enclosed response:
"Dear Dan,1:55,Aug 17,06
 NOTHING is too hard to play on the piano!.......
The Secret:
1. Play it WITHOUT PEDAL
2. At the same time: Play it AS SLOWLY AS IT TAKES TO PLAY IT WITHOUT ANY ERRORS (in timing and/or note values)!!!!
3. Then keep this up UNTIL (say 3 months from now) it is being played at the desired, but error-free, speed
4. Then, somewhat prior to performance time, add pedal here and there (like salt and pepper), only as needed to buttress any remaining/unmanageable legato problems

===============
I will try it on this example
PLEASE TELL ME THE technique you used to get the scan file of this piece so nicely?
Yours
Dr. Thomas
============

"

Discuss.

Personally, I say add more pedal for more sound and power, etc.  But the basic idea of the technical side is what's most important and that's what he's demonstrated.

*Note- any usage of this quote should be requested of me to be approved by Dr. Thomas.  I don't want him mad at me.*

[pianistimo]

sounds like your friend is a very good sightreader to be able to read an entire score of something before taking it a notch faster.  what i have read is that liszt was also a very good sightreader.  and, that he thought orchestrally.  if you understand the orchestra - you understand liszt.  also, his only real rival, virtuoso-wise, was thalberg.  before the 'show down,'  liszt used to add notes and flourishes - and basically improvised on other people's works as well as his own.  then, thalberg sort of challenged him to stick with the notes and tempos indicated by the composer.  so he goes and plays beethoven's hammerklavier exactly as written but very full of fire.  'great balls of fire.'  basically, he couldn't even make a wrong note sound wrong if he tried.  take this story:

"he was rolling up the piano in arpeggios in a very grand manner indeed, when he struck a semi-tone short of the high note which he had intended to end.  i caught my breath and wondered whether he was going to leave us like that, in mid-air, as it were, the harmony unresolved, or whether he would be reduced to the humiliation of correcting himself like ordinary mortals, and taking the right chord.  a half smile came over his face, as much as to say - 'don't fancy that this little thing disturbs me' -- and he instantly went meandering down the piano in harmony with the false note he had struck, and then rolled deliberately up in a second sweep, this time striking true.  i never saw a more delicious piece of cleverness.  it was so quick-witted and so exactly characteristic of liszt.  instead of giving you a chance to say, 'he has made a mistake,' he forced you to say, 'he has shown how to get out of mistake.'

[bench warmer]

dnephi,  I see you covered all your bases and also posted this on that "other" board.

[dnephi]

dnephi,  I see you covered all your bases and also posted this on that "other" board.

It's more fun to have an experiment with how diff. communities react.

Fish,

DNB

[kaiwin]

Dnephi,
What you see is a great example of an amateur who uses great practice technique. That is, playing it slow error-free for quite a while then speeding it up. I also do this, doing it slow and error-free allows your mind to "feel" the notes that are being played. Too many pianists practice their pieces up-tempo with missed notes, unbalanced rhythm, and is only being played by ear (Also blurring notes with the pedal). Playing it slowly and perfect for a period of time builds a "foundation" of the piece, which would be the bare bones of what is to become a full-fledged great performance of the piece. For example, the first time I start the piece I play it really slow, once I got it to the level where it can be played perfectly slow I continue to do this over again for 3 times. If it is still not perfect when played slow I keep doing more repititions or even may go a slower tempo.  Then you continue to speed up, and so on...

Right now something taxing like the "Revolutionary" Etude is great in this example. When I finally reach full tempo (144 per quarter) I must be able to play it this speed consistently till performance. So each day I know go really slow first, then medium speed third, a bit faster than medium fourth, then finally full speed. And when I reach full speed I play it three times perfectly. Playing without pedal is even better cause it allows you to hear each notes, and in final practice stages you can use it to 'glitter' your piece. But in the early and medium stages it is best to play without pedal, this is a big problem for people because most people practice with pedal a lot and only play by ear, therefore it leads to incorrect technique, missed notes, unsecureness, etc...

Hope this helps!

Don't forget dynamics. 

[dnephi]

Right now something taxing like the "Revolutionary" Etude is great in this example. When I finally reach full tempo (144 per quarter) I must be able to play it this speed consistently till performance.
Hope this helps!

Is that what your edition says? Mine says 80=halfnote, but that's too fast for emotion.  Remember,Horowitz did it in 2,47,,. 

P.S. I speed up when it's pure technique, like left hand chromatics.

Thanks for the posts.

[kaiwin]

Yeah thats a bit fast, a half note at 80. It would sound pretty... interesting... Horowitz doesn't go that fast I think. I think he goes around 144 per quarter which is the speed I'm going.

[lostinidlewonder]

I really can't agree with practicing without pedal and adding it later. The pedal should never be focused upon while you play, everything happens with your feet because it aids in creating the sound you wish to produce. So playing without it, then only later on considering it to me seems like a long path. I like to practice to get to a point so that I can play the way I imagine I would play for an audience. Do it straight away, don't muck around.

No 2 point is absolutely important. When we practice anything it becomes totally useless if we hesitate (uncontrollably) and search for notes. We may hesitate in a controlled manner, that is put periodic pauses in a long string of notes, not everything needs to be played evenly all the time to learn it fast. A very long string of single notes can be memorised and the effortless touch achieved if we drill the pattern with different rhythms or controlled pausing.

No 3 point is waaaaay too simplistic. Keep it up? Yeah how? There are many tools to aid our practice, all which are determined differently for the individual.

[bernhard]

NOTHING is too hard to play on the piano!.......

This is true. Any “impossible” piece can be made easy if one knows how to do it.

The Secret:
1. Play it WITHOUT PEDAL

4. Then, somewhat prior to performance time, add pedal here and there (like salt and pepper), only as needed to buttress any remaining/unmanageable legato problems

I agree with Lostinidlewonder. Without qualifications, this advice is absurd. Then again, is he suggesting this as the secret to learn Mazeppa, or to learn any piece at all? Buttressing of unmanageable legato problems is just one of the functions of the pedal, mostly applied to Baroque and Classical pieces. The creation and manipulation of overtones (which will result in colouristic effects) is by far a much more important use of the pedal. That is how it is used in most Romantic and Impressionistic music (try leaving the pedal out until somewhat before the performance in Debussy and see what happens). As such it has to be integrated from the very beginning (this is not to say that practicing without pedal is not a good idea – but one must know why one is doing it).

2. At the same time: Play it AS SLOWLY AS IT TAKES TO PLAY IT WITHOUT ANY ERRORS (in timing and/or note values)!!!!

3. Then keep this up UNTIL (say 3 months from now) it is being played at the desired, but error-free, speed

This is of course a most absurd way to go about practicing any piece. It is very inefficient and it will build up speed walls, ingrain bad technique and will prevent proper memorisation. Perhaps what he means here is that after one thoroughly learns a piece, then it is a good idea to play it slowly – and in this case I could not agree more.

However, what happened to the real secrets? (Break down a piece into manageable sections, some as small as two notes; practise hands/voices separate before joining them; using dropping notes to co-ordinate hands, work on the difficult sections first and most,  etc. etc.)

What happened to analysis of the piece, carefully thought out fingering, exploratory practice to determine best motions and co-ordinations – all of which cannot be done if you are playing the piece from beginning to end, no matter how slowly?

Three months from now, using this “secret” will almost surely guarantee that the student will be completely stuck on speed walls and wrong techniques (since at slow speeds you will get away with wrong motions).

Use the proper way (it is no secret: read my posts) and you may master this piece in two weeks instead. (Provided it is within your level).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S.:

PLEASE TELL ME THE technique you used to get the scan file of this piece so nicely?
Yours
Dr. Thomas

Nothing is too hard to scan on the scanner…

The secret:
1.   Position the document on the scanner. Do it without pressing any buttons.

2. At the same time: Adjust the document AS SLOWLY AS IT TAKES TO MAKE SURE IT IS PERFECTLY ALIGNED IN THE SCANNING AREA!!!!

2.   Then keep this up UNTIL (say 3 months from now) it is aligned at the desired, but error-free position.

4. Then, somewhat prior to scanning time, press the start button, only once to scan.

[e60m5]

This is true. Any “impossible” piece can be made easy if one knows how to do it.

I agree with Lostinidlewonder. Without qualifications, this advice is absurd. Then again, is he suggesting this as the secret to learn Mazeppa, or to learn any piece at all? Buttressing of unmanageable legato problems is just one of the functions of the pedal, mostly applied to Baroque and Classical pieces. The creation and manipulation of overtones (which will result in colouristic effects) is by far a much more important use of the pedal. That is how it is used in most Romantic and Impressionistic music (try leaving the pedal out until somewhat before the performance in Debussy and see what happens). As such it has to be integrated from the very beginning (this is not to say that practicing without pedal is not a good idea – but one must know why one is doing it).

This is of course a most absurd way to go about practicing any piece. It is very inefficient and it will build up speed walls, ingrain bad technique and will prevent proper memorisation. Perhaps what he means here is that after one thoroughly learns a piece, then it is a good idea to play it slowly – and in this case I could not agree more.

However, what happened to the real secrets? (Break down a piece into manageable sections, some as small as two notes; practise hands/voices separate before joining them; using dropping notes to co-ordinate hands, work on the difficult sections first and most,  etc. etc.)

What happened to analysis of the piece, carefully thought out fingering, exploratory practice to determine best motions and co-ordinations – all of which cannot be done if you are playing the piece from beginning to end, no matter how slowly?

Three months from now, using this “secret” will almost surely guarantee that the student will be completely stuck on speed walls and wrong techniques (since at slow speeds you will get away with wrong motions).

Use the proper way (it is no secret: read my posts) and you may master this piece in two weeks instead. (Provided it is within your level).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S.:

Nothing is too hard to scan on the scanner…

The secret:
1.   Position the document on the scanner. Do it without pressing any buttons.

2. At the same time: Adjust the document AS SLOWLY AS IT TAKES TO MAKE SURE IT IS PERFECTLY ALIGNED IN THE SCANNING AREA!!!!

2.   Then keep this up UNTIL (say 3 months from now) it is aligned at the desired, but error-free position.

4. Then, somewhat prior to scanning time, press the start button, only once to scan.

This man speaks the truth and nothing but the truth.   

We have a true scanner virtuoso on our hands!

[bench warmer]

This is true. Any “impossible” piece can be made easy if one knows how to do it.

I think I saw somwhere on these Boards a quote from Fats Waller:  "It's so easy when ya knows how!"

Indeed, words of wisdom.

[dnephi]

OK. 

Now that the votes are in, the curtains are drawn.  His advice must be taken with a good deal of salt, considering that he has autism.  Now you understand that he doesn't quite understand romantic or impressionistic pieces.  He just plays piano because it is his self-chosen obsession.  He once told me, "The difference between you and Rubinstein is that he doesn't make mistakes."  Now, that is wrong, and a bit funny  .

Now, I find the advice that is most important is the advice to practice slowly without pedal, using proper motions of course.  Using rhythms I can practice them at far faster than concert tempo, parts at a time.  I take apart the accompaniment at times, examine bass lines, harmonic structure for expression and phrasing, etc. 

However: the biggest thing that it was is the following: If polished finger work is required, if articulation, cleanliness, exactness, speed, technical deftness are required, practicing without the pedal with rythms, and then slowly after you know the motions in even time can get the technical problems sorted out.  And yes, fingering's important. 

And finally, the results on the other board were a bit more favorable, but that's because they took it with a bit more salt. 
Thanks all. :p.

[bernhard]

OK. 

Now that the votes are in, the curtains are drawn.  His advice must be taken with a good deal of salt, considering that he has autism. 

He may be an autist, or he may be a buddhist. His advice is still bad. It does not matter who profers advice, all that matters is the advice itself. Many times great authorities have uttered the most absurd statements. And I have learned some very useful knowledge from the most unlikely sources.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[dnephi]

He may be an autist, or he may be a buddhist.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.

He's a Hindu Catholic.
Regards.

(And thanks)

[thalbergmad]

He's a Hindu Catholic.
Regards.

(And thanks)

What is that??

I did not know that was possible.

It's like being an Islamic Jew.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

I know an autistic person who has two musical diplomas, violin and piano. He's extremely gifted in music. But talking to him is often a bit difficult becaus he chooses the subjects you're talking about and you can not introduce others easily. He has certain favorite talking subjects like f.e. weather, that he knows everything about. Afaik he works as a piano teacher. Autists are often musically gifted.