Animal rights

[liszmaninopin]

Well, since this seems to be the board for discussing odds and ends, I will start a thread on animal rights.  Do you think they have rights?  Considerations?  Nothing at all?  Also under this thread can go anything ecologically related.

[bernhard]

https://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

[chopinetta]

yes, animals have rights. don't forget that the homo sapiens (humans) belong to the kingdom of animals.

[eddie92099]

Yes, exactly. Humans are animals too,
Ed

[Noah]

Humans are animals too

Some more than others !

[eddie92099]

Yes, quite,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

Indeed, you are right.  But quite a few people have a problem with that notion.

[chopinetta]

I don't mind being called an animal It's a scientific fact. so no hard feelings.

[chopiabin]

I agree with animal rights, but have you ever wondered why we do? I think its because we project human emotions onto animals.

[Hmoll]

I agree with animal rights, but have you ever wondered why we do? I think its because we project human emotions onto animals.

No you are wrong. It is because we know that animals feel pain. Whether animals feel emotion or not is subject to debate.  It is, however, a fact that animals do feel pain, which is why cruelty to animals is unethical and wrong.

[eddie92099]

I could not take anyone who says animal's don't have emotions seriously,
Ed

[chopiabin]

I believe that animals have emotions certainly, but ask yourself why we care whether or not they feel pain. I love animals, I'm just making observations. Other animals don't respond to the pain of other species. Why do we?

[chopiabin]

Why is the word "love" always in yellow now?

[Plaz]

I believe that animals have emotions certainly, but ask yourself why we care whether or not they feel pain. I love animals, I'm just making observations. Other animals don't respond to the pain of other species. Why do we?

Because:

a) We can.  Having a highly evolved brain, we (or at least some of us) have developed the capacity for empathy.  We can imagine what it must feel like to experience pain because we feel pain ourselves and can communicate with others to know that they experience it the same way that we do.

b) We can afford to.  Few of us (and presumably none of those on this forum), are forced to hunt and kill other animals in order to survive.  The animals we do kill for food are generally killed rather humanely (at least when compared with being eaten alive by predators) and by others so as not to expose us to the unpleasantness.

c) We are programmed to.  Much of the criminal and ethical code is based on the premise that causing injury or inconvenience to others is a bad thing.  IMHO, this is mostly the long-term result of a combination of (a) and (b) above.  Kids have to learn to take others' feelings into account as they get older.  Some never learn this and spend their later years torturing animals and eventually becoming psychopaths.  But I digress...

Once you accept that fact that we're animals (or divinely created beings that coincidentally share the same physical structure and chemical make-up with animals down to the same amino acid chains on DNA molecules...), then it's not a big leap to extend the same courtesy to your pet (who faithfully follows you everywhere) that you do to the neighbor across the street (who painted his house orange and hasn't taken a shower in months).

[ilovemusic]

Other animals don't respond to the pain of other species.

Now that's nonsense.

[Hmoll]

I could not take anyone who says animal's don't have emotions seriously,
Ed

You're right. What I meant, and should have said, was the extent and complexity of emotions in animals is subject ot debate.

[eddie92099]

Few of us (and presumably none of those on this forum), are forced to hunt and kill other animals in order to survive.

Speak for yourself,
Ed

[Plaz]

Speak for yourself,
Ed

Sorry, Ed.  I forgot you were a starving music student.  Please don't eat my dogs when you're out foraging for food in the neighborhood.  Bon Appetit!

[xenon]

Animals are God's creation too (resist the temptation, Edward), and we must respect them (ie no cruel and unusual punishment :p).  But the bleeding heart groups that protest that animals shouldn't be eaten is just plain silly.  They are meant to be as food (well, some of them).  They also are a source of money to the economy (yes, I am corrupt by money).

Appologies for grammatical errors/psychobabble.  It is getting very late here.

[chopinetta]

in the philippines any kind of animal is eaten. rats, worms, dogs, cats, crocodiles, snakes, (i've eaten a python! tastes like chicken), lizards, frogs, etc, but still I say they have rights!

[eddie92099]

in the philippines any kind of animal is eaten. rats, worms, dogs, cats, crocodiles, snakes, (i've eaten a python! tastes like chicken), lizards, frogs, etc, but still I say they have rights!

Quite right. The best thing I ever ate was fresh goat's brain out of the goat's head. Very tasty. I've had snake soup too, rather too rubbery for my liking though,
Ed

[xenon]

Wow, how revolting.  I'm a vegetarian (health reasons), so that is particularily not my ideal dish .

[chopiabin]

Plaz, you rock! This is the answer I was looking for, but I really didn't feel like trying to explain it. Do you like Nietzsche? He IS GOD for me.


Btw xenon, god does not exist.

Chop

[chopiabin]

I meant the Christian god

[Plaz]

Plaz, you rock! This is the answer I was looking for, but I really didn't feel like trying to explain it. Do you like Nietzsche? He IS GOD for me.

Thanks.  I have to admit I've only read some excerpts of Nietzsche.  I guess I'll have to move him up on my List Of Things To Read.

Btw xenon, god does not exist.

That's been covered ad nauseum on this board.  I don't think you're going to convince xenon of this.

[eddie92099]

I'm a vegetarian (health reasons)

What exactly are your reasons? Most vegetarians I know are far more unhealthy than the rest of us,
Ed

[Laurationg]

I've been vegetarian before but not anymore.  I believe a balanced diet is the key to good health.  A meat eater who consumes too much meat can fall sick easily, likewise for a vegetarian who lacks protein.  Vegetarians usually get their protein from beans.

[Laurationg]

But honestly speaking, it's very inconvenient to be a vegetarian.

[chopiabin]

I know some vegetarians wh do it for mostly moral reasons. They have read about farming practices and find them horrifying.

Chop

I knew I would not convince xenon, I just thought it needed to be said.

[krenske]

well...
horowitz had poodles and poodles of money

[comme_le_vent]

if there was a more intelligent lifeform on this planet that wanted to eat us as food, would we sacrifice ourselves just to feed them?

that makes sense to me

[comme_le_vent]

god created the heavens and the earth

why should we, as lowly mortals, have the right to destroy any of his creations?

[Hannah Joy]

Posted by: xenon Posted on: Jan 15th, 2004, 2:32am
Animals are God's creation too (resist the temptation, Edward), and we must respect them (ie no cruel and unusual punishment :p).  But the bleeding heart groups that protest that animals shouldn't be eaten is just plain silly.  They are meant to be as food (well, some of them).

That pretty well says it for me.  
I have no doubt our dog feels emotion when she's looking in from the rain at us.  Whether she has any common sense is another question (she does have a nice dry house).
Yes, human are animals physically - we're also much more.

if there was a more intelligent lifeform on this planet that wanted to eat us as food, would we sacrifice ourselves just to feed them?

I've never heard of an animal sacrificing itself to feed us - if you have, I'd like to hear the story.
Ed, have you tried those half-developed eggs they eat in the Philippines?

[liszmaninopin]

I agree that eating most animals is okay.  Some, particularly endangered species, I do not think should be eaten.  Over here in America they need to strengthen animal cruelty laws-people can do absolutely horrifying things and get away with little more than a slap on the wrist.  How are we much more than animals when we are, in fact animals?

[chopiabin]

I would say that, yes animals have rights in our culture, but they are not "god-given." The rights of an animal depend on the morality if the culture in which they live. They eat dogs in Vietnam; here we find it repulsive, but we realize that we don't have the right to go in and meddle with their culture and their concept of animal rights.

[liszmaninopin]

It's unfortunate, but the world generally works by "might makes right."  If the US wants to invade Iraq; it can, and nobody can stop it, regardless of whether it is justified.  The same goes for how our society treats animals.  In many cases it is not morally right (look at veal-unimaginable cruelty), but the fact that humans view the world in a them-and-us fashion (regarding animals) means that as long as humans are dominant, animals will continue to suffer abuses.  It's sad, but true.

[chopiabin]

I guess I see morality as relative.

[liszmaninopin]

It is relative for me, too.  I hope I don't come across as believing otherwise.

[Hannah Joy]

Posted by: Liszmaninopin Posted on: Today at 9:56am
How are we much more than animals when we are, in fact animals?

I meant that humans also have souls, and are created in God's spiritual image, unlike animals.

look at veal-unimaginable cruelty

I don't follow you there.

[chopiabin]

Give examples that prove that humans have a "soul" and animals don't. I believe that humans and many of the other animals have emotions and a self-awareness, but nothing that can be called a "soul" unless self-awareness is a "soul".

[liszmaninopin]

I have no reason to believe that I have a soul, or that animals don't.  The burden of proof rests on the one who makes such an assertion.  Why should I believe such things?

Veal is a tremendously cruel process.  They take young calves, and make them live in a crate in which they can hardly move their entire life, in unsanitary conditions, just so the meat is tender.  The animals often get psychological conditions, have irritated skin, and can't lay down properly.  All so humans get tender meat.  Excuse me if I offend somebody, but I find that rather sickening.

[chopiabin]

True dat!

[Noah]

I have no reason to believe that I have a soul, or that animals don't.  The burden of proof rests on the one who makes such an assertion.  Why should I believe such things?

Veal is a tremendously cruel process.  They take young calves, and make them live in a crate in which they can hardly move their entire life, in unsanitary conditions, just so the meat is tender.  The animals often get psychological conditions, have irritated skin, and can't lay down properly.  All so humans get tender meat.  Excuse me if I offend somebody, but I find that rather sickening.

It's tasty though.

[Hannah Joy]

Posted by: Chopiabin Posted on: Feb 16th, 2004, 9:04pm
Give examples that prove that humans have a "soul" and animals don't. I believe that humans and many of the other animals have emotions and a self-awareness, but nothing that can be called a "soul" unless self-awareness is a "soul".  
Posted by: Liszmaninopin Posted on: Feb 16th, 2004, 9:39pm
I have no reason to believe that I have a soul, or that animals don't.  The burden of proof rests on the one who makes such an assertion.  Why should I believe such things?

As far as I can tell, the only proof you accept is scientific.  Since a soul is, by definition, immaterial, and science only deals with the material world, obviously the existence of souls can't be proven scientifically.  Why don't you prove they don't exist?

[liszmaninopin]

I don't accept scientific proof.  As far as proof goes, I only accept mathematical proof.  I do accept scientific evidence, however.  I can't prove that souls don't exist, but I think that it is silly to look down upon other creatures of the earth because they don't have "souls," which nobody can prove anyway.  Descartes considered animals no more than biological machines; and look at the horrible experiments conducted by people with the same thoughts.  The only way I can disprove the existance of souls is to show that the Bible is not perfect; but that's been done so many times I don't feel it necessary to reiterate it again here.  If you would like to see some of my reasons, scan through the religious debate rooms part 2 and 3 and also the creation/evolution debate room.  I will gladly elaborate, though, if you want me to.

[chopiabin]

All I know is that I don't believe in a soul, or your god, but I never feel "empty" or "depressed." I never have that feeling of a "hole in my life". This is because I truly do not believe in these things. Those that feel empty and search for god never really stopped believeing.

[Hannah Joy]

I only stated my beliefs as they relate to the topic of this discussion.  No, I can't prove them - neither can you.  There's no excuse for cruelty to animals, whatever you believe.  Let's stick with the topic at hand here, and not turn this into a religion debate room - there are plenty of those.

[chopiabin]

True. Do you believe that you have the right to judge Vietnamese people who eat dogs?

[liszmaninopin]

I don't know if I have the right to judge them.  I would not eat dog unless forced to through circumstances; but that is simply a personal objection.  If anything, pigs suffer more acutely than dogs, but are treated very badly in most western societies.  It's all unjust; and what's worse is that I do eat meat; it's healthy in moderation and tastes good. (although I never eat veal... never)  I don't so much object to eating animals, but I object to the demeaning lives that are forced upon them.  A wild creature can live in relative freedom, has a chance to escape.  A captive animal is born into bondage, lives in bondage, and dies in bondage; with no hope and no future.  I couldn't imagine living in a similar situation; it's depressing to honestly try to imagine oneself living one's existance in a cage barely bigger than one's body.

[chopiabin]

I totally agree. I personally object to animal cruelty, but if you were raised in another culture, you might find the idea that animals have rights absolutely ludicrous.