Challen - 11ft 8inch 1935 Grand Piano

[rachmad]

I am trying to find out all I can regarding this one of a kind piano. Can anyone help me with  photos and written information on the web or from what they personally know about it? Otherwise any books audio recordings or video etc about it?

Any help much appreciated.

[iumonito]

I think it was a present for a member of the British Royal family, in celebration of some type of anniversary.  I want to say it is from 1935, but maybe I am making that up.

I don't know whether it is still in use, if it survived the war, etc.

Challen still makes pianos, although I think they only make the smaller ones and I don't know whether they are still made in England.

[andyd]

The name was bought by a Malaysian firm, called Musical Products, and Challen are being built in that country.  See
https://www.viennamusic.com.my/

The big grand piano you mentioned was last reported to be in France somewhere.

Andy

[rachmad]

Thanks for the info, I noticed this reference below, does anyone have this book and could post the photo and info about this big piano...

"A picture of this instrument can be seen in Pierce's Piano Atlas (the handy little book available from piano supply house that contains the year of construction of every piano ever made according to its serial number)."

[pianolist]

You can download a free one and a half minute video clip of Billy Mayerl introducing and playing the Challen. Visit British Pathe news at www.britishpathe.com, and enter "largest grand piano" in the search box. They want your address and email, but the low quality video for private use is absolutely free.

And you can download half the musical history of early 20th century England from them as well. Try the clip of Fairchild and Lindholm to see how brilliant popular pianists could be. Edgar Fairchild's day job in the 1920s was recording producer at Ampico, where he supervised many of Rachmaninov's piano roll recordings.

There's Eric Coates, Eileen Joyce, Charlie Kunz, more Billy Mayerl, eight pianists playing Rustle of Spring at an Islington cinema, followed by the 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody sounding more like a military march, Raie da Costa, and Winifred Christie on the Moor double keyboard. Away from the piano, they have Henry Wood and soloists recording Vaughan Williams' Serenade to Music, and so on, and so on.

Enjoy yourself!

Pianolist

[rachmad]

Hi Pianolist!

Thats a great golden reply! Thanks a lot for that. For once I can actually see this enormous piano being played, a real bonus. I wonder if there are some photos about anyone could post?

Also my searchings for the biggest of Grand Pianos in the world have turned up some amazing results.

First there is the Rubenstein Piano at 3.71m and has only recently been completed. Do check out the website, there is an amzing series of photographs there detailing its construction and an informative interview with David Rubenstein:

https://www.rubensteinpianos.com/index.html
https://www.la-ptg.org/rubenstein/


Now hold your breath for this one, it is quite unbelieveable! Schimmel are currently building a 6m Grand Piano (That's about 19ft 6in!!) . There is a small picture and article here:

https://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2004-10-13-libeskind-sidebar_x.htm

Now can anyone add further info to this? The 6m piano is a reality as I contacted Schimmel and they have confirmed it.

If anyone knows of any other large pianos please post your comments and any links to stories, photos etc. Are there other people in the world who, like David Rubenstein, have   made their own pianos. I think it is just so amazing that people have this kind of vision.
Looking forward to your further posts!

[gfiore]

 You did'nt read the article very well. Schimmel says a half-size prototype is currently being constructed. That would be a little over 10 feet, not the 19 footer as conceived by the Architect.
 Fazioli makes a 10'2", and Pearl River has made a few one-offs over 12 feet in length.

[pianistimo]

is there any advantage to pianos over 7'2 or 7'4'' length?  seems that it becomes an inordinate strain on the sounding board.  is this true?  how long do extra large pianos typically last without CRACKING?  and, what do you do when you want to move them?

[gfiore]

Large grands are'
nt any different than their smaller siblings. Any quality piano that is is routinely maintained, will last for a life time. 9 foot concert grands from  manufacturers Concert & Artist banks are moved in and out of performance venues around the world all the time. Sometimes several times a week. They get moved the same way all grands do, legs and lyre off, wrapped in movers furniture padded blankets, positioned on their long side onto a large skid on a piano dolly, and transported by truck. The only difference is they are a lot bigger and heavier.

[pianistimo]

but, is the sound any better?  does the sound fill up a larger concert hall better than a sever footer? 

[rachmad]

You did'nt read the article very well. Schimmel says a half-size prototype is currently being constructed. That would be a little over 10 feet, not the 19 footer as conceived by the Architect.
 Fazioli makes a 10'2", and Pearl River has made a few one-offs over 12 feet in length.

Hello gfiore,

Oh I thought I did read the article very well:

Article quote:

"And it's some piano: More than 19 feet long. Polished black lacquer with titanium inlays. Price: $300,000-plus."

The article mentioned two lengths of piano:-)

And to quote myself!:

"The 6m piano is a reality as I contacted Schimmel and they have confirmed it."

And to quote yourself gfiore:

"You did'nt read the article very well." !

Anyway I quote of part content of the letter from Schimmel Piano company:

" - - the Schimmel and Daniel Libeskind grand piano of about 6 m length. - The instrument will probably be introduced next year.  I can inform you that as far as we know this grand piano is really the largest one that has ever been realised."

I guess we''ll all have to wait and see the release.

Can you give any further info like links and photos to the Pearl River large piano?

Regarding the weight of the Rubenstein piano  - the specs say:
2500lb/1133.98kg and that is around twice the weight of my 9ft6in Imperial...

[gfiore]

You still did'nt read it right. There was only one 19' art case piano manufactured as designed by Libeskind. Schimmel is currently manufacturing a half-size prototype of the Libeskind design, and will be only making  less than two-dozen of these limited edition pianos. I spoke to my European contact, and he emphasized that they will be a little over 10' in length, not 19'.

[pianolist]

Good afternoon, Rachmad and interlocutors,

I thought I would have a second go. First off, my impression is that grands longer than a 'D' or an Imperial are not especially wonderful. At least, the Challen was not highly regarded by pianists at the time, but it was more of a publicity stunt. Challen was chosen as the BBC piano in the late 1930s, on the strength of a very well scaled 8-foot grand which they made. The large grand was sold at auction in London within my memory, and I would estimate late 80s/early 90s. I think it was sold when Phillips were still auctioning pianos in Queensway.

Since player pianos are my speciality (well, my life, really), I should tell you that there were some concert grand reproducing pianos made, just a few of which have survived. In the case of the Duo-Art and Welte pianos, the spool box (the roll mechanism) has to fit above the keyboard and in front of the frame, so this makes the piano case longer. There was a Steinway Welte-Mignon 'D' grand made in the mid-1920s, particularly for concerts of special Welte compositions written by Hindemith and others, but this has disappeared. It was probably destroyed when the Allies bombed the ex-Welte factory in Freiburg-im-Breisgau in 1944.

There was a Chickering Ampico concert grand in the Chicago area in the 1980s, though Ampico rolls fit in a drawer under the keyboard, so the length is not affected.

Duo-Art concert grands were made in both Weber and Steinway pianos. The President of the AMICA (Automatic Musical Instrument Collectors' Association) Chicago chapter has a Steinway 'D' Duo-Art, and there is a good photo of it at: www.chgoamica.com/AMICA-PIX/IMG_2584_op_800x600.jpg.
Queen Elizabeth of the Belgians had one in the 1920s, which is now in private hands, and was restored by a Dutch friend of mine about ten years ago.

You can see a rather blurred photo of a Duo-Art concert grand in 1917 at Aeolian Hall in New York, where it was being used to play the solo in the Saint-Saëns G minor piano concerto. This is on www.pianola.org, which I run. I bought the original publicity material last week on Ebay, so the photo will soon be rather better, I hope. Go to www.pianola.org/reproducing/reproducing_duo-art.cfm and scroll down the page until you find it.

You have been considering longer pianos, but there are also wider pianos. Steinway Welte-Mignon grands are wider, because they have to fit windways inside the casework, so that the soundboard extends beyond the frame at both ends. I have my doubts about longer pianos sounding better, but the wider ones certainly do. Mind you, the Weltes usually come in 'O' sized grands, but that is equally what the pianists recorded on.

When I give concerts, I simply use the resident concert grand, and my Pianola fits in front of it, and connects with felt-covered fingers over every note. This saves a great deal of back-breaking lifting on my part, since I can leave it to Steinways to shift the piano. One thing you wouldn't particularly notice as a pianist is the spacing of the keys. American Steinways are slightly narrower from bass to treble than German ones - that has been my experience when I have played over there, and had to adjust my Pianola to fit.

Rachmad, I think you may be in England, because your profile says your local time is the same as mine, and anyway, you are interested in the Challen, which is very British. In view of your name, you might like to know that Rachmaninov will be playing at the Purcell Room in early December, along with Scriabin, Medtner and their buddies. You'll find details on our website if you look carefully!

[pianolist]

spam

[rachmad]

You have been considering longer pianos, but there are also wider pianos.

Hi Pianolist, thanks for that feedback, I've always wondered why the upper register of a piano didn't have 4 strings to give greater power, at least this piano does and you can see the key offset in the treble due to the extra width. I wonder if anyone has played this Borgato or has one?

https://www.borgato.it/main_uk.htm

[rachmad]

During my investigations about the big Challen Piano, I came upon a tuner who told me he believed that the Challen company actually made a 25ft long piano (not sure if the length is accurate), but the development was a failure and this was never released or much known about. I would like to know whom one talks to to find out about the R&D at Challen all those years ago. Can anyone post some specific information. Any suggestions would also be much appreciated.

[ed_thomas]

One theoretical advantage of the longer piano is that fewer of the bass strings have to be wound, or can be wound more lightly.  To keep the tension of the strings relatively uniform, the pitch is decided by mass.  So to get the pitch lower without increasing the length, they are wound as a compromise for flexibility and mass.  I think a 27' foot (or so) piano could have completely solid strings.  Since the thicker windings add overtones and mud, the solid strings have a purer tone.

I suspect the other physical issues of a larger piano overwhelm this minor advantage, though.

[pianolist]

Rachmad, I may be able to help point you in the right direction. I sent you a Private Message. I don't think there was an even longer model, though.

[bobtheorganist]

I remember the giant Challen being offered for sale for around £3k at one of the many piano exporters in Birmingham in the early 1980's.  Their concert grands are hard to find, but I have one of their last ones, dating from 1940 and made for the BBC. By this time the factory was given over to aircraft part manufacture, abd some of the bracing underneath uses a phenomenally hard  and dense wood which was probably destined for an aircraft part! I love it, and it is tonally brighter and more powerful than my 7'6 barless Broadwood....

On the large side, I also have a 9'6" concert grand, made for the BBC in 1936, which is pending restoration.  It is a big heavy beast which looks like it will be magnificent when restored.. hoping to record some period Billy Mayerl on it eventually!