Need theory help with my own composition

[soderlund]

Yesterday, I sat down at the piano and started composing... I rarely do this and I have never studied how to compose so perhaps this is an obvious question, I don't know. I usually don't like my own pieces, often I think it's great when first composing it and I play it over and over again. Then I do something else and when playing the piece perhaps the following day I can't understand what I thought was so good about it. Then I just stop playing them, and sooner or later forget how to play them.

Anyway, yesterday I composed a piece that I actually like, but I forgot to decide what time signature it was in... I started looking at other compositions today, op.9 no.1 of Chopin and Liszt's third consolation. And I saw that the last note of the theme always comes first in a new measure in both pieces. Does it have to be like this, or is that up to the composer? Because if the last note of the theme must come first in a new measure, I'll have to alter my piece quite much. Or perhaps this is only because it looks better, I dont know... I was thinking of 4/4 signature or perhaps 6/8... The key is F minor.

[quantum]

Notation is often part of the puzzle when composing. 

In general I like to put more importance with the sound of the music, than worry about having it fit theory rules.  Remember theory was created as a way of explaining how existing music works, not as a method you must follow to create your own works. 

Phrases can start and end in any part of a bar.  If your phrases do not fit regular time signatures and you like how they sound, change the time for every bar you need it.  You could also make up some additive time like 3 + 4 / 8 (7/8). 

[counterpoint]

I guess, you need to know, where to place the bar lines in your written music.
Bar lines are normally (but not always) placed before accentuated notes. So search for the accentuated notes and place a bar line left from that notes. Then you can look, what is the sum of durations in a bar, and you have the measure marking 

It is less helpful to use such strange rules as the "end of melody = place of bar line". That could be true in some cases but completely wrong in many other cases.

[prometheus]

Because if the last note of the theme must come first in a new measure, I'll have to alter my piece quite much. Or perhaps this is only because it looks better, I dont know... I was thinking of 4/4 signature or perhaps 6/8... The key is F minor.

What a strange idea.


Key signatures are totally artificial. You can write down anything. Like Counterpoint says, it only tells you where the bar lines are on the sheet music. Now, do you play bar lines?

[soderlund]

Thank you all for the help! Now i know more of composing, and things are going better with the piece...

Prometheus, what is so strange with the idea? At first, I didn't place it in a key, but I found much easier to move on if I decided for one key, and the most fiting was F minor.

And yes of course I play bar lines. I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I have never seen a single piece without them... And if you're referring to my piece, this is the problem I'd like to solve here...

[bernhard]

I started looking at other compositions today, op.9 no.1 of Chopin and Liszt's third consolation. And I saw that the last note of the theme always comes first in a new measure in both pieces. Does it have to be like this, or is that up to the composer? Because if the last note of the theme must come first in a new measure, I'll have to alter my piece quite much. Or perhaps this is only because it looks better, I dont know... I was thinking of 4/4 signature or perhaps 6/8... The key is F minor.

No, of course it does not have to be like this. That is the way they did it. As the composer you can do whatever you want.

Time signatures are artificial but only to a point. Yes, they have the function to mathematically define bar lines and the distribution of note values within bar lines, but they also have another important function: they define the accents (so in 2/4 you have one strong accent and then one weak; in 3/4 the first beat is strong the next 2 weak and in 4/4 you have the first beat strong, the 3rd, strong but not as strong as the first and the 2nd and 4th weak). And compund time signatures also follow the same scheme (6/8=2/4; 9/8 = 3/4 and 12/8 = 4/4 as far as weak/strong beats go)

Many composers disliked the tyranny of accents, or wrote music that was at odds with the "metric" accent.  They went round the problem by using "anacrusis" (the first bar is incomplete and starts on a weak accent so that the next note in the new bar is accented), or they used (in modern times) strange time signatures (e.g. 5/4) that may change throughout the piece, and finally they also used no time signmature and no bar lines at all. Medieval and Renaissance music (e.g. Gregorian chant) does not have bar lines (they were inveneted later), and modern music often does not have them (Most notably Erik Satie often wrote music without bar lines - e.g. the 6 Gnossienes - it caused a bit of a scandal at the time). Nowadays it is quite common (for instance, most of Howard Skemptonīs music has no bar lines).

Of course - as quantum and counterpoint quite rightly said, you must decide if your piece:

a. Has a very clear and audible regular metric accent - if so you should use barlines and an appropriate time signature. Not having them would be just laziness/ignorance.

b. Does not have a clear and audible regular metric accent (or it has, but you would like it to be performed as if it did not) In this case, it is advicable not to have time signatures or bar lines (again, a good case in point are the Satieīs Gnossienes to which one could easily add bar lines since they are metric, but Satie did not want them to sound that way).

To train yourself in time signature recognition, listen to pieces and clap to them; try to hear where the accents regularly fall and guess what the time signature is. Then look at the score and see if you guessed right. Start with classical music (Haydn, Beethoven, Mozart) since it is particularly easy to guess the time signature with this style.

Then listen to thinkgs like "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck where the 5/4 time signature is made very audible.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jonslaughter]

Anyway, yesterday I composed a piece that I actually like, but I forgot to decide what time signature it was in... I started looking at other compositions today, op.9 no.1 of Chopin and Liszt's third consolation. And I saw that the last note of the theme always comes first in a new measure in both pieces. Does it have to be like this, or is that up to the composer? Because if the last note of the theme must come first in a new measure, I'll have to alter my piece quite much. Or perhaps this is only because it looks better, I dont know... I was thinking of 4/4 signature or perhaps 6/8... The key is F minor.

In some sense you don't decide what key or time signature your in but the music does. i.e., if you play music but don't have concept of meter then if you just "say" I'm going to play in common time your music might not be in common time.

A time signature is suppose to be correlated with the meter of the song. If the piece is in quad time then your time signature should be 4/x. You could even use 2/x and it might work depending on how much it sounds like quad.  Its true that some music might fluxuate in there meter but most cpp music is fixed in one meter.

So, what you have to do is determine what the meter of the music you create is in. How do you hear it? Listen for the accented beats and then listen for how many unaccented beats are inbetween. Listen for the typical subdivision of the beat, is it in 2 or 3?  All these will determine the true time signature. If you put the wrong time signature then ultimately it will be performed wrong because the performer will probably assume thats the time signature you wanted it in. (although it will probably look strange notationally).

Its the same idea with the key signature. You can notate a piece in any key but it doesn't mean its the best. The best key to notate it in is simply the key that has the least number of accidentals. This makes it easy on the performer.  Ofcourse traditionally one would use the key signature of the correct tonality of the piece.  So, if your tonality is Am then you would use the key of Am to notate it. This isn't quite true as many pieces modulate and stuff but its a general rule. (and both the two statements above usually coincide). 

"And I saw that the last note of the theme always comes first in a new measure in both pieces. "

No, the last note usually comes in on the first accented beat or the 3rd beat in quad time. This is because they are probably cadences on that measure.  You can stick it anywhere but chances are if you dont' stick it on an accented beat then it won't sound right... if it does then chances are your meter has changed or is different from the time sig.

i.e., suppose that your meter is simple duple(like 2/2). But then at some point you play a phrase and end your note on the 2nd half of the 2nd beat. If it sounds fine then chances are you have changed meter in that phrase. Its more complicated than that as that note could also be a pickup to the next beat or part of an extension or whatever.  You just gotta feel it and see. It depends on a lot of factors so its hard to make an explicit statement about it. You should easily be able to feel the "pulse" though and in a sense thats how you compose in the proper meter.

I used to have a problem where when I would play I would play many things in polymeter. My music never sounded like it had direction(not just the because of the meter though).  The pulse was always changing and it was hard to get a feel for things. It made it hard to cadence properly and stuff.  If you learn to count then it might be easier for you to get meter in your head.

Try it simple and try to always play in 4/4 with 4 bar phrases. You do this just so you can get some point of reference. Its not that its bad to play in other meters or difference phrase lengths but you need to be semi-aware of what your doing.  Learn to feel the beat and then you will know when you've changed it. 

Its quite complicated stuff to try and teach but if you use your ear(which means actively listen and try and understand whats going on) you will eventually make a lot of progress.   The ear is infinitely much better at figuring these things out than trying to use "theory". I think thats its virtually impossible to use theory before you ear understands it(because the theory is not so much a theory but just a "method of communication").

Anyways, good luck.