Dissonant piece conveying despair?

[beanman]

What pieces come under this category. Prokofiev and Scriabin come to mind!

I am looking to learn something like toccata / suggestion diab. but a bit longer and with more change in mood and tempo.

Quite like Vers la Flamme too.

Please help...

[prometheus]

Are you sure Scriabin wrote dissonant pieces?

[jre58591]

scriabin's pieces arent dissonant. also, the prokofiev toccata and suggestion diabolique arent really that dissonant. why not look toward others like schönberg, webern, or carter? if you really want a piece that conveys despair, do look at vers la flamme or some of scriabin's other late pieces, like the last 4 sonatas, the last 3 etudes, and the late preludes. but, like i said, those arent dissonant.

[pianote]

not too incredibly dissonant...but Barber's Ballade "Restless" might be a good choice

[quantum]

You may want to check out the Scriabin Op. 74 Preludes.  The first one has something to do with pain. 

Scriabin 9th Sonata is pretty demonic.  It has a wickidly demonic sounding coda.

[jre58591]

the barber ballade does get a little dissonant. thats a great starting piece. a more difficult, more dissonant piece would be carter's night fantasies. thats a very moody piece with many colors and tempo fluctuations. perhaps check that out if you are more adventurous.

[quasimodo]

"Dissonant" is very relative, In mozart's time, Chopin would have sounded terribly dissonant...
I find Scriabin quite dissonant though totally tonal.

[nanabush]

I heard a random recording of a piece called "in memorium to the victims of chernobyl' by this lady, dunno her first name I think it's Laryssa, but her last name is Kuzmenko... quite atonal; I wouldn't say super dissonant, but it definately does not have a central key... if you can find a recording/sheet music then congrats, but it was about a year ago I heard a recording, and it took me a whiile to find it.  This piece is very dark, that's all I can say

[xavierm]

Dissonance isn't relative at all.

Any combination of notes with relation other than tonic-mediant, tonic-dominant, tonic-submediant, tonic-tonic, ie, major and minor (perfect for fifths) thirds, fifths, sixths, and octaves, is considered dissonant. Even perfect fourths are considered dissonant. If you are talking about what SOUNDS dissonant to a particular person, than yes, dissonance can be relative.

Btw - jre58591... I think the pieces you are referring to by the second vianese school sans carter are not dissonant pieces, but atonal pieces. There is an important difference.

[jre58591]

I think the pieces you are referring to by the second vianese school sans carter are not dissonant pieces, but atonal pieces. There is an important difference.

Any combination of notes with relation other than tonic-mediant, tonic-dominant, tonic-submediant, tonic-tonic, ie, major and minor (perfect for fifths) thirds, fifths, sixths, and octaves, is considered dissonant.

according to what you just said, they are dissonant. also, most of the twelve-tone methods they used were dissonant.

[prometheus]

I heard a random recording of a piece called "in memorium to the victims of chernobyl' by this lady,

You mean 'threnody for the victims of hiroshima' by Penderecki? Yes, that would qualify as dissonant. Scriabin isn't atonal. Atonal music isn't dissonant. But that piece is.


It isn't that easy to create something that is really dissonant.

[quantum]

I heard a random recording of a piece called "in memorium to the victims of chernobyl' by this lady, dunno her first name I think it's Laryssa, but her last name is Kuzmenko... quite atonal; I wouldn't say super dissonant, but it definately does not have a central key... if you can find a recording/sheet music then congrats, but it was about a year ago I heard a recording, and it took me a whiile to find it.  This piece is very dark, that's all I can say

Kuzmenko In memoriam to the victims of Chornobyl

can be found at the Canadian Music Centre.  Ignore the beginner rating, that must be a misprint.  This is in the syllabus for ARCT list E. 

https://www.musiccentre.ca/apps/index.cfm?fuseaction=score.FA_dsp_details&bibliographyid=50702&dsp_page=1

[pies]

Ligeti's Automne a Varsovie. Especially the ending.

[nanabush]

You mean 'threnody for the victims of hiroshima' by Penderecki? Yes, that would qualify as dissonant. Scriabin isn't atonal. Atonal music isn't dissonant. But that piece is.


It isn't that easy to create something that is really dissonant.

Haha there's to pieces about victims of something 

[beanman]

Okay thanks for your help.

I think I meant just pieces that dont sound 'nice' where minor and major keys do. Probably atonal is tha correct word.

But Tocatta and suggestion diabolique must be dissonant they are all chromatic and ghastly with clashing sounds!!!

[counterpoint]

Scriabin isn't atonal. Atonal music isn't dissonant. But that piece is.


It isn't that easy to create something that is really dissonant.

I don't understand, what do you mean with "dissonant"?

Many intervals are dissonant: seconds, fourths, sevenths etc.

Bach has written very dissonant music, for example the 3 part Invention #9 in f minor.

If you mean with dissonant "it hurts in the ears", you would propably like Noel, thats No. XIII of the Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jesus by Messiaen.

[mephisto]

the barber ballade does get a little dissonant. thats a great starting piece. a more difficult, more dissonant piece would be carter's night fantasies. thats a very moody piece with many colors and tempo fluctuations. perhaps check that out if you are more adventurous.

Austbø who has played all of Messiaen`s piano music and won the Messiaen competition sais that the Carter Night Fantasies was the hardest piece he has ever learned to play. It is that hard I doubt many if any of the memebrs of this forum should even touch this piece.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

technically speaking, dissonance is anything which isn't consonant. they need to be resolved, like a 4th should resolve to a 3rd.

it has been associated with how we feel when we hear it- tension. sure, atonal music has lots of "dissonance" and tension as we hear it (but mainly because of our strong tonal orientation) but according to its rules, they may not necessarily mean dissonance.

(what the... i'm just repeating what xavierm said, haha)

Dissonance isn't relative at all.

Any combination of notes with relation other than tonic-mediant, tonic-dominant, tonic-submediant, tonic-tonic, ie, major and minor (perfect for fifths) thirds, fifths, sixths, and octaves, is considered dissonant. Even perfect fourths are considered dissonant. If you are talking about what SOUNDS dissonant to a particular person, than yes, dissonance can be relative.

Btw - jre58591... I think the pieces you are referring to by the second vianese school sans carter are not dissonant pieces, but atonal pieces. There is an important difference.

 anyway, regarding the question, prokofiev has a work entitled Four Pieces, op 4. the 3rd piece of this is translated as "Despair". Suggestion Diabolique is the last piece of this group. it has so much "dissonance" or tension as we hear it, but it also has a tonal center.

[allchopin]

Ornstein's Suicide in an Airplane.

[jre58591]

Austbø who has played all of Messiaen`s piano music and won the Messiaen competition sais that the Carter Night Fantasies was the hardest piece he has ever learned to play. It is that hard I doubt many if any of the memebrs of this forum should even touch this piece.

it was just a piece that came to my head first. there probably is someone on this forum that can play it. perhaps a lurker.

[melengi]

Bartok, two elegies, not outright dissonance but pretty despairing.

[pita bread]

Prokofiev - Piano Concerto #2

[jre58591]

perhaps barber's piano sonata and corigliano's etude fantasy. just perhaps.

[beanman]

Thanks a lot I've looked up most of these pieces and carters night fantasies really appeals to me but i cant find the sheet music.

I will trade anything with the person who has these sheets!!!!!please pm me.

[burstroman]

Counterpoint's suggestion of Bach's f minor sinfonia was one of the first that came to mind.  Others include, Chopin's a minor, c minor, b minor, d minor preludes, last movement of b-flat minor sonata.  Mozart has first movement of a minor sonata, rondo in a minor, Lachrymosa from the Requiem. Rachmaninov's c#minor prelude, second movement of the 3rd concerto. come to mind.  Also the "death of Spartacus" by Schedrin (?)  etc.

[pies]

Ornstein's Suicide in an Airplane.

An amazingly wonderful piece.

[allchopin]

An amazingly wonderful piece.

The dissonant rumble in the bass is awesomely attuned to airplane engine hum.