finishing pieces

[maestoso]

do you think it makes sense to finish a piece or work on several. currently i am working on fur elise, fantasie impromptu, solfegietto, minuet in g prelude in c sharp minor. anyway i have a problem finishng songs. i think there is too much beatiful music and if i hear something i like i want to learn it.

Nothing on earth is so well suited to make the sad merry, the merry sad, to give courage to the despairing, to make the proud humble, to lessen envy and hate, as music.
Martin Luther (1483-1546) German Protestant leader

[pianistimo]

'finish what you start' is the motto i always had drummed into me.  the unfortunate thing is that with piano street - you print out pages that end up falling hither and yon and when a page is missing you ahve a better excuse.

[maestoso]

i think so. i have decide to finish sonata in c sharp minor from beethoven and nothing else. (at least until i find something new i wanna play!

[gonzalo]

Hi,
I found this post by Bernhard particularly useful:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,3396.msg30084.html
(how to deal with laziness)

The person who started the thread had the same problem as you.

Apart from that, I suggest you fall in love with your pieces again , by investigating about the composer's life, analysing them ,etc.


Take care,
Gonzalo

[barnowl]

I think it depends on the pieces you're working on.

Seeing a piece through, just  because of some adage you learned at your mother's knee
doesn't hack it, in my opinion. You must be realistic. You only have a finite amount of time in life.  Make the best use of it.

Toss out the drek, and play only the stuff you love — or that which raises your level of play.

Which is an ancient proverb I just made up, and anyone here may use it.

[pianistimo]

that only promotes laziness.  as i see it - play only music you do not understand.

[zheer]

do you think it makes sense to finish a piece or work on several.

  Personally i think it is better to work on a large number of solo piano music, rather than spend a large amount of time perfecting  one or a few pieces.

[barnowl]

  Personally i think it is better to work on a large number of solo piano music, rather than spend a large amount of time perfecting  one or a few pieces.

How many is a large number, Zheer? Geez, I'm working on three and I am beginning to wonder about the efficacy of that.

I want to be able to play some good stuff for my infant (10 months on this coming Wednesday) grandsons. They love K.545 and Mozart's and Beethoven's Turkish Marches, and Little Serenade, and on and on. If I tried to attack all those pieces I'd never get anything into shape for playing them for the babies.

(The songs mentioned are all prerecorded on my digital piano, and when the kids come here on Thursdays to spend the day, the first place they creep to is, guess what.)

So where do you draw the line?

[bernhard]

How many is a large number, Zheer? Geez, I'm working on three and I am beginning to wonder about the efficacy of that.

I want to be able to play some good stuff for my infant (10 months on this coming Wednesday) grandsons. They love K.545 and Mozart's and Beethoven's Turkish Marches, and Little Serenade, and on and on. If I tried to attack all those pieces I'd never get anything into shape for playing them for the babies.

(The songs mentioned are all prerecorded on my digital piano, and when the kids come here on Thursdays to spend the day, the first place they creep to is, guess what.)

So where do you draw the line?

It depends on the student and on the pieces. A good number to tackle is 30 per month (it does not mean that you will finish 30 pieces in a month, but rather that you are working on 30 pieces every day - some pieces you will finish in a week or two and they get replaced, others may take 3 or 4 months).

Usually beginners can tackle 10 pieces a day if they have enough practice time.

A good proportion is to tackle five easy pieces, three challenging pieces and 2 difficult pieces.

Of course the above assumes a very particular way of practice. If you do not know about it, then the whole enterprise becomes impossible.

Just to give a quick overview:

1. Everyday dedicate 20 - 30 minutes to each piece you want to tackle.  Never more than   that. Fit the piece to this time by working on a section whose size is manageable in 20- 30 minutes. That may mean a bar a day.

This will ultimately define how may pieces you can tackle simultaneously. If you can only practise  30 minutes a day (daily practice is mandatory), then 1 piece is all you are going to manage. If you can manage 5 hours a day, then you will have ten pieces. You could also do practise sessions of 10 - 15 minutes and have 20 pieces being worked at the same time with five hours a day of practice. You get the idea.

2. You must carefully plan your work and then work your plan. This means to spend sometime going through your pieces and breaking them in sessions and organising it so that what you do on a daily basis amount to something after a couple of months. Planning is essential for efficient practice.

3. Persistence and discipline are the keys.

You can read more about these issues in these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1825.msg13858.html#msg13858
(Accommodating practice times – 10 minute sessions – some mention on mental practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188
(How to plan your work for the next five years)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).
 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

Thank you very much Bernhard. Tackling three pieces is more than I've ever tried. Ten, huh? Okay. My teacher will love it. Thanks! That'll make practice incredibly interesting!!

May I give up the $%*&@## scales, please?

Now since you're so smart, tell me how I can save your post (above) as a pdf file. 
This way the links will work whenever I call up the post.

(I really would like to save it as a pdf file so, if anyone knows...)

[gonzalo]

Barnowl, don't give up scales. Practice the scales which are used in your pieces. If you're working on 10 pieces, you'll practise a lot of scales. The thing is , don't play scales outside pieces.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

Take care,
Gonzalo.

[barnowl]

Barnowl, don't give up scales. Practice the scales which are used in your pieces. If you're working on 10 pieces, you'll practise a lot of scales. The thing is , don't play scales outside pieces.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

Take care,
Gonzalo.

You're a good man, Gonzalo. Thanks for the link. (I was only kidding about giving up the scales. So, now I'll look at what your link suggests. Play the scale of the piece you're studying?

[gonzalo]

You're a good man, Gonzalo. Thanks for the link. (I was only kidding about giving up the scales. So, now I'll look at what your link suggests. Play the scale of the piece you're studying?

Yes . Playing the scale of your piece will get you familiarised with it's structure, and it helps memorisation a lot.

[ingagroznaya]

 Everyday dedicate 20 - 30 minutes to each piece you want to tackle. 

30 pieces? Dear Bernhard, why after reading your posts sometimes I feel as at least one of us is insane? I understand it is not a finance site and most members can count to 4 well ( 6 max ). What on earth are you talking about? 20 minutes spent on each piece times 30 = 10 hours of practicing per day non stop. Did you say "daily"?


No one seems to argue what you have to say...

You think I do not get your sense of humor? At first I laughed, but it just does not seems so funny anymore. Are you all right, comrade?

Yes, one more question - do you actually play?

[barnowl]

¡Muy Bueno, Gonzalo! Mil gracias.

[jamie_liszt]

30 pieces? Dear Bernhard, why after reading your posts sometimes I feel as at least one of us is insane? I understand it is not a finance site and most members can count to 4 well ( 6 max ). What on earth are you talking about? 20 minutes spent on each piece times 30 = 10 hours of practicing per day non stop. Did you say "daily"?

I agree, 30 pieces seems way too much for anyone to handle?

[barnowl]

Baloney! I'm gonna do 30, just to prove Bernhard's right.   

[ingagroznaya]

What I mean is I could see someone working on 30 pieces daily while locked in psychiatric award.  Anyone in real life? No.
You don't seems dumb, but you're seriously discredit your self with this sort of statements. I doubt you play your self or seriously teach piano. Some of your suggestions are pure theory.  Math based, not real life experience. Most of us here played long enough to understand importance of the discipline piano takes.

Usually beginners can tackle 10 pieces a day if they have enough practice time.

No kidding.
10 pieces at 20 minutes each is over 3 and a half hours of non stop practice daily. For a beginner? Only to have enough practice time matter?
Irk, you must covered the injuries in another thread. I feel another link coming. I've noticed lately that you believe so much in what you say, you don't converse. You just quote your self endlessly 

[bernhard]

Thank you very much Bernhard. Tackling three pieces is more than I've ever tried. Ten, huh? Okay. My teacher will love it. Thanks! That'll make practice incredibly interesting!!

May I give up the $%*&@## scales, please?

Now since you're so smart, tell me how I can save your post (above) as a pdf file. 
This way the links will work whenever I call up the post.

(I really would like to save it as a pdf file so, if anyone knows...)

You may give up the $%*&@##  Hanon and technical exercises.

If you have OpenOffice (it is free, just google it and download it), then you can copy and paste the post into it and simply save it as a PDF file. (you could also cut and paste it into word and save it as a word file).

Or you could do what I do: just copy and paste the link itself (on the address box at the top) into Word, and add a few words to it to remind you what the link is all about (e.g. the link Gonzalo sent you).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

30 pieces? Dear Bernhard, why after reading your posts sometimes I feel as at least one of us is insane? I understand it is not a finance site and most members can count to 4 well ( 6 max ). What on earth are you talking about? 20 minutes spent on each piece times 30 = 10 hours of practicing per day non stop. Did you say "daily"?


No one seems to argue what you have to say...

You think I do not get your sense of humor? At first I laughed, but it just does not seems so funny anymore. Are you all right, comrade?

Yes, one more question - do you actually play?

I am glad I had your attention.

Yes, 30 pieces a day is impossible by orthodox ways of practising. So clearly there must have to be a different way of practising for this to work. So before getting too anxious, have a look at the links I provided. We do not need a panic attack right now, do we?

Of course I play. Playing is very important. Life is not only about work, work, work. Even though we are not children anymore (at least I am not), we also need to play. A lot.

Now I´m going off the the swings.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

10 pieces at 20 minutes each is over 3 and a half hours of non stop practice daily. For a beginner? Only to have enough practice time matter?
Irk, you must covered the injuries in another thread. I feel another link coming. I've noticed lately that you believe so much in what you say, you don't converse. You just quote your self endlessly 

Er... who said anything about non-stop practice? By working on each piece 20 minutes (more or less) a day, you have the choice to do 10 pieces one after the other, or spread them over the day (the perfect solution for the busy pianist who wants to watch TV: do your practice during the adverts! )

Now, now, you could have answered that yourself. Do you really need me to converse and point it out?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S. What happened to your Russian accent (it was quite attractive). English lessons?

[bernhard]

One must also look at context.

The original question I was answering (and which I dutifully quoted) was "How much is a large number?".

So I answered it, and people now come around and say: "Wow! 30 /10? That is a large number?''

Duh!

Of course it is. It answers the question "what is a large number?" duh again.

The question was not: "What is a reasonable number?" or "What is the smallest number of pieces I can get away with?" or "how many pieces can I tackle if I am only able to practise 45 seconds per day?" (even though the astute reader may infer the answers from my posts without the need for me to "converse").

So guys and gals, read the whole thread. Read the suggested links. Get the context.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

And I thought in Russia 10 - 12 hours practice a day was the bare minimum expected from the budding virtuosos... (Hanon should not take more than one hour to complete, so one still have 9 - 11 hours left).

BW
B.

[mephisto]

Bernhard does that mean that you can learn the complete fugues of the wtc 1 in one month and spice everything up with the Hammerklavier(4 pieces) if it is February. On any other mont you would of of course learn Beethoven opus 111 as a little encore.

24 + 4 + 2= 30.

[bernhard]

Bernhard does that mean that you can learn the complete fugues of the wtc 1 in one month and spice everything up with the Hammerklavier(4 pieces) if it is February. On any other mont you would of of course learn Beethoven opus 111 as a little encore.

24 + 4 + 2= 30.

Of course not.

You are not reading the links.

Are the WTC fugues easy for you? Is the Hammreklavier just challenging?

And I was quite clear when I mentioned that this didi not mean that you would finish a piece in a month.

But an advanced player could easily tackle the following selection (just an almost random example) on a daily basis working 5 - 6 hours a day:

Easy (for the advanced player, of course)
1. Chopin preludes op. 28 nos. 2 - 4 - 6 - 7 - 20
2. Scarlatti sonatas K25 - K32 - K54 - K 112 -  K213 
3. Beethoven sonata op. 49 no. 1 first movement - 2nd movement (for learning purposes sonata movements are regarded as separate pieces)  - Beethoven Six Ecossaises
4. Grieg - Lyric pieces op. 12 no. 1 - op. 12 no. 3 -  op. 47 no. 3 -  op. 71 no. 7
5. Satie - Gymnopedies no. 1 - no. 2 - no. 3 - Gnossienes no. 1 - no.2 - no. 3 - no. 4 - no. 5 - no. 6.

(25 easy - for our pianist - pieces)

Challenging:

1. Chabrier - Idylle.
2. Beethoven - Sonata op. 79 - 1st movement - 2nd movement - 3rd movement.

(4 challenging pieces)

Difficult

1. Chopin Etude op 10 no. 1.

These pieces are tackled not by playing them everyday from beginning to end, but in very small sections (sometimes as small as one bar). So first you must break down each piece in manageable chunks, then you must order the chunks ion a daily basis so that at the end of a certain time you have mastered the piece. (Read the links in reply # 8 for the details).

Some of the easy pieces will be mastered after 6 - 7 days working on them as little as 5 - 10 minutes a day. Some will take 14 - 15 days working 20 minutes a day. The challenginc and difficult pieces will take maybe 30 - 45 minutes of daiily work and may take 30 - 45 days to complete.

So, what matters is that you are doing 30 pieces a day, and at the end of the month most of them will be in your repertory (most of them are easy, yet superior pieces). As you get one piece ready you replace it by another one that you would like to play. It is important that the great majority of the pieces you are tackling be "easy" (for you, of course). As time passes, you will notice that many pieces that in the first year you considered "challenging" have now become easy, and the difficult ones will have become just "challenging". This is a result of your technique improvement from tackling such a diverse repertory.

At the end of one year you could well have 250 - 300 pieces on your repertory - worth anything between 15 and 40 hours of uninterrupted playing.

I believe is perfectly reasonable to expect my students to have 40 - 50 pieces in their repertory after one year of lessons.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mephisto]

I see.

[franz_]

currently i am working on fur elise, fantasie impromptu, solfegietto, minuet in g prelude

F-I next to fur elise?  Very strange.

[zheer]

At the end of one year you could well have 250 - 300 pieces on your repertory - worth anything between 15 and 40 hours of uninterrupted playing.

 
  No thats too much, too sight read or have briefly worked on 250- 300 is possible only with a stupid amount of work. However to expect to learn a new piece every single day for a year is asking too much, in fact i believe Vlad Horowitz at 22 had 250 working pieces in his repetoire and thats after a number of years of learning, and thats horowitz we are talking about. Anyway i think thats impossible. to be honest a very famous french pianist once said on the radio that she needs 1 year to learn one piano concerto.

[jamie_liszt]

I could see myself working on 10 pieces per day (not 10 different pieces per day). Possibly do 5 in the morning and 5 at night, 10 - 20 minutes per piece just working on 5 or so bars (maybe less or more). I might give that a go. 

[jazzyprof]

At the end of one year you could well have 250 - 300 pieces on your repertory - worth anything between 15 and 40 hours of uninterrupted playing.

Bernhard, would you expect these 250-300 pieces to be memorized?  Personally I don't feel I know a piece unless it is memorized and the thought of committing 300 pieces to memory in a year gives me palpitations.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, would you expect these 250-300 pieces to be memorized?  Personally I don't feel I know a piece unless it is memorized and the thought of committing 300 pieces to memory in a year gives me palpitations.

Yes, memorisation is part of the learning process and that proces is not considered finished until a piece is memorised.

However, you now have a different problem which is to keep it in memory, since as you replace your newly learned (and memorised) piece by a new piece you want to learn, your newly memorised piece will be neglected. Fortunately there is a strategy to deal with that as well, and I refer you to this thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4168.msg38569.html#msg38569
(Keeping pieces polished – learn/forget/relearn)


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

  No thats too much, too sight read or have briefly worked on 250- 300 is possible only with a stupid amount of work. However to expect to learn a new piece every single day for a year is asking too much, in fact i believe Vlad Horowitz at 22 had 250 working pieces in his repetoire and thats after a number of years of learning, and thats horowitz we are talking about. Anyway i think thats impossible. to be honest a very famous french pianist once said on the radio that she needs 1 year to learn one piano concerto.

Again, you have not read the links I have supplied. In order to learn 250 - 300 pieces a year, you do not learn a piece a day. You learn one bar (say) of one piece a day for 10 - 20 minutes, then you move on to another piece and learn a bar of that piece and so on for 30 pieces a day. Over time, the bars will increase and at the end of some time (depending on you and on the piece) you will have a complete piece. (And yes, iti is a lot of work, but I would expect a professional pianist to be up to it - after all that is his/her job. As for amateurs, they do not really need to learn that much repertory, so if it is a "stupid amount of work" just work on less pieces per day).

Vlad at 22 - great pianist that he was - probably (coming from the Russina School) had very inefficient practice procedures, so it is not relevant what he could or could not do.

Again, your very famous pianist may or may not have good practice habits. In any case, I can easily agree with that. Yes, one year to learn a piece to ´performance level is quite all right - but only if you are learning another 100 pieces (or more) at the same time. Any one who spends several hours a day working only on a piano concerto will probably not play it very well even after one (or ten) year(s).

Read the links.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I could see myself working on 10 pieces per day (not 10 different pieces per day). Possibly do 5 in the morning and 5 at night, 10 - 20 minutes per piece just working on 5 or so bars (maybe less or more). I might give that a go. 

Yes, you´ve got the general idea.

BW
B.

[ingagroznaya]

Er... who said anything about non-stop practice? .

No one. The key word was " For a Beginner". I do not see any beginner practicing each half an hour out of 7 hours per day. Repeating a same measure? Sure, repetitions works. You either do not know what you are talking about or writing from jail. Injuries are unavoidable.

[ingagroznaya]

One must also look at context.

The original question I was answering (and which I dutifully quoted) was "How much is a large number?".

So I answered it, and people now come around and say: "Wow! 30 /10? That is a large number?''

Duh!

Of course it is. It answers the question "what is a large number?" duh again.

The question was not: "What is a reasonable number?" or "What is the smallest number of pieces I can get away with?" or "how many pieces can I tackle if I am only able to practise 45 seconds per day?" (even though the astute reader may infer the answers from my posts without the need for me to "converse").

So guys and gals, read the whole thread. Read the suggested links. Get the context.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Being not a native speaker I hear your " Good number" answer as a "Reasonable number". You have C for your English, dear Bernhard.  Good is not Large or Small, worse or better. Good is within reason on a good side.

Do you collect your own links?

[ingagroznaya]

And I thought in Russia 10 - 12 hours practice a day was the bare minimum expected from the budding virtuosos... (Hanon should not take more than one hour to complete, so one still have 9 - 11 hours left).

BW
B.

B, you're talking nonsense. 8 hours per day takes lots of stamina. 10-12 daily? During the commercials? We had no commercials in the Soviet Era. Without too much swinging, could you explain what do you mean?

It's very clear from the posts that neither Maetroso, nor Barnowl are nowhere near being "advanced". Suggesting 10 hours of practicing per day as a "good number" is irresponsible and foolish. Perhaps you have not seen enough of injuries in grown-up adults. Piano practicing is additive.

[ingagroznaya]

F-I next to fur elise?  Very strange.

...followed by Solfegietto, anonymous minuet in g and coma-less prelude in c sharp minor. I almost thought it was Rahmaninov from inefficient school of music, but later it was Van. Sonata? With 30 pieces / measures to work on...it's no wonder 
This whole thread is whacky.

[ingagroznaya]

At the end of one year you could well have 250 - 300 pieces on your repertory - worth anything between 15 and 40 hours of uninterrupted playing.

So at the end of the year we can finish all 10 hours practicing per day with 40 hours marathon. Uninterrupted.

Don't take me wrong, dear Bernhard... I really like you, but something aren't right. Somewhere. I do not want to put a finger on it. Coz we all have it. Some more, some less.

[barnowl]

So at the end of the year we can finish all 10 hours practicing per day with 40 hours marathon. Uninterrupted.

Don't take me wrong, dear Bernhard... I really like you, but something aren't right. Somewhere. I do not want to put a finger on it. Coz we all have it. Some more, some less.


Half of us, perhaps. But, I'll put my finger on it, Inga—if you'll let me.   

[zheer]

Again, you have not read the links I have supplied. In order to learn 250 - 300 pieces a year, you do not learn a piece a day. You learn one bar (say) of one piece a day for 10 - 20 minutes, then you move on to another piece and learn a bar of that piece and so on for 30 pieces a day. Over time, the bars will increase and at the end of some time (depending on you and on the piece) you will have a complete piece. (And yes, iti is a lot of work, but I would expect a professional pianist to be up to it - after all that is his/her job. As for amateurs, they do not really need to learn that much repertory, so if it is a "stupid amount of work" just work on less pieces per day).

  I see what you mean, but in all honesty only the likes of Richter in his mid 40eez or mid 50eez was able to learn all 48 Bach WTC in a single month, and even he said that its a dangerious way of learning music.
  What i have found and this is my experince is that the more you sight read and the more music you learn ie perfect, the easier it gets to learn new music, a little like a long distance runer, you start with one mile after 2 or 3 years of hard work you can run 20 miles.
  I think Bernard you look into piano playing too much, which might benefit some but not all. So to be honest all one needs, is to love the music and have the desire to explore and learn music daily, ie no need for maps ,compas, bar chart, calculater,action plan and god nows what else, but simply to learn or sight one piece at a time.

[ingagroznaya]

I went through hell learning how to play. Repeating 30 songs ( forgive me) one bar or measure at a time 10 hours per day, 30 minutes - one bar, one song, move on to 20 minutes another song another bar without hardly ever actually hearing continues playing or enjoying my self would make me quit. I know I would never make it. The thought alone makes me dizzy.

Don't take me wrong, Bernhard, I'm all for repetition, but to a point and when one is ready for some dirty work.
Your "method" is not new. Several years ago I had a kid... Nice kid. I always thought of her as musical. She was about 8 years old then. I gave her Bach prelude in C four weeks before a recital. She looked at it and declared : " I work on the first bar Mon through Wed. Second bar - Thursday through Sat . Third...."  She went on and on and on. Made me think of Ravel Bolero. It sounded as this kid is going off to work at some factory. Heavy machinery came to mind. I never looked at her the same way.

I do agree with Zheer. We do not need a map, a compass and a calculator. All we need to do is learn how to read. Some people are more about staying organized, some -- never care to.

I don't believe your "method" is much faster then traditional or more productive at the end. It's all comes down to ability to concentrate for certain periods of time and discipline.

The theory you describing sounds so dreadful and unrealistic  especially for a younger student, I wonder how many of your kids can actually repeat the phrase for 10 minutes at a time. I had some. Very few. Very few kids enjoy obsessive repetition and none can do it to the extent that you suggest.

After so many years of learning how to practice, I seems to put my self into some meditative mode, where my mistakes don't bothers me a lot and I can actually repeat a phrase to the eternity. It's an acquired skill. It's takes a certainty level of maturity and experience. Making a beginner to practice the way you suggest is the fastest way to kill the interest. What you describe is a factory. Productive factory with little joy, assuming that you quote the time which is also realistic.

[timothy42b]

I know that I have trouble finishing a piece, and I've found a solution.

Sheer terror.

I have two "lesson pieces" I'm working on, the Invention 1, and another easier Bach piece, Minuet in G I think.  Both have been on the stand more than a month and neither is any closer to being finished.  That's the problem with lesson pieces, when you don't pass you recycle it another week.

But I've also played the hymns in church the last four Sundays.  Guess what, they won't delay the services to let me finish practicing.  They have no sense of humor about it either, something about the church being booked Monday already.  No matter what else happens, at 1030 Sunday the preacher announces the first hymn and my finger better hit the keys. 

I might not have put the quality time into the lesson pieces, but I worked my butt off to get the hymns playable.  I'm a beginner with one year of lessons, with a traditional style teacher.  That isn't really sufficient skill level to be performing. But performing is a powerful motivation enhancer. 

[ada]

Bernhard's prior advice on organising practice has saved my life (thanks, buddy ; )

I'm not a professional pianist nor am I in training to be one, so my case may be a bit different to some of the full on virtuosos-in-the-making here.

So I have neither pressure to bring stuff up to scratch for recitals nor to pass exams.

But I do have a passion for the piano and I'm just as committed as anyone else to improving and widening my rep. I am also horribly strapped for time.

At any one time I'm actively working on a core of five or six pieces which I stick with for a month. The next month I re-jig the core group, which means I may keep on a piece or drop it and replace it with a new one, or an old one.

Some pieces have been in my core group for over a year, and I'm getting good at them.

Others, usually the easier ones, get dropped after a month when I can play them, then I replace them with a new easy one that can be mastered in a month.

The more challenging ones, I'll work at for a month then drop for two, three or more and pick them up again at a later stage.

This method  won't get super fast results but it works fantastically for me. I never get bored and I constantly get results.

Somedays I'll practice for four hours, others I'll only get five minutes in. But that really doesn't matter., as long as I get some time every day.

[barnowl]

Bernhard's prior advice on organising practice has saved my life (thanks, buddy ; )

I'm not a professional pianist nor am I in training to be one, so my case may be a bit different to some of the full on virtuosos-in-the-making here.

So I have neither pressure to bring stuff up to scratch for recitals nor to pass exams.

But I do have a passion for the piano and I'm just as committed as anyone else to improving and widening my rep. I am also horribly strapped for time.

At any one time I'm actively working on a core of five or six pieces which I stick with for a month. The next month I re-jig the core group, which means I may keep on a piece or drop it and replace it with a new one, or an old one.

Some pieces have been in my core group for over a year, and I'm getting good at them.

Others, usually the easier ones, get dropped after a month when I can play them, then I replace them with a new easy one that can be mastered in a month.

The more challenging ones, I'll work at for a month then drop for two, three or more and pick them up again at a later stage.

This method  won't get super fast results but it works fantastically for me. I never get bored and I constantly get results.

Somedays I'll practice for four hours, others I'll only get five minutes in. But that really doesn't matter., as long as I get some time every day.

Nice story, Ada, but how does Bernhard figure into your success? You seem to have been following your own practice formula for years. Bernhard just got his Patent last month on practicing 30 pieces a day.

[bernhard]

Nice story, Ada, but how does Bernhard figure into your success? You seem to have been following your own practice formula for years. Bernhard just got his Patent last month on practicing 30 pieces a day.

You can read more about these issues in these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

Date of thread: October 2004

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1825.msg13858.html#msg13858
(Accommodating practice times – 10 minute sessions – some mention on mental practice)

Date of thread: December 2003

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

Date of thread: March 2004

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

Date of thread: March 2005

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188
(How to plan your work for the next five years)

Date of thread: April 2005

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).

Date of thread: March 2005.

Date Ada first joined the forum: June 2005.

Clearly she has done what you guys haven´t: she read the above links!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

It was a joke. Why do I waste my time here, I wonder?

[drjames]

I was thinking about something last night before I found this topic today.  I was wondering if anyone, ( and whether it would be considered "ok"), focuses only on shorter or "easier" pieces that aren't so technically demanding.  I mean pieces such as the slow movements of Beethoven's sonatas or short pieces such as by Schubert, Schumann or Songs Without Words by Mendelsohn.  Before I found this forum I had almost convinced myself that I would never really be able to play pieces such as Beethoven sonatas.  Then after reading Bernhard's (and others) strategies regarding practicing pieces small amounts at a time I took on the Pathetique and over the course of a year had it about 95% learned and memorized and up to speed.  I was excited and made plans to learn another sonata and started Op. 2 #1.  The thing is that on many occasions I am only able to spend about 10-15 minutes practicing for the day and on some days none at all.  The point that I am getting at after all this rambling is that I can spend those 10-15 minutes working on 2 or 3 measures of something like the 4th movement of Sonata No. 1 and maybe in a couple of months I'll have it learned. (You can't take many days off on stuff like this because of the need to build on the previous days practice.)  Or I can spend the same time working on something physically easier but just as rewarding, say Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 (which I just started) and have it completed in month or so and still work on other pieces as well.  I know we all need to choose our own path but for so long I"ve felt like I've taken the easy road because I avoided the hard stuff.  Now that I proved to myself that I can learn more difficult pieces (than I was playing) why bother?  I haven't decided yet to quit the hard stuff but when I sit down at the piano and have to decide between 15 minutes of 3 or 4 measures of presto Beethoven that I may never actually finish or an entire movement of adagio Beethoven that I know I can learn well I would really prefer the movement. James.       

[mephisto]

Date of thread: October 2004

Date of thread: December 2003

Date of thread: March 2004

Date of thread: March 2005

Date of thread: April 2005

Date of thread: March 2005.

Date Ada first joined the forum: June 2005.

Clearly she has done what you guys haven´t: she read the above links!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Do you recomend a book where I can find most of this information?

[kallgreb]

Do you recomend a book where I can find most of this information?

Here is one...
I think it`s quite compareable to what Bernhard have written in this forum.

https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

[overcast_32]

Here is one...
I think it`s quite compareable to what Bernhard have written in this forum.

https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

I've been reading that intently - and I have to agree with him that it's mostly mental - and from my opinion, I think you need to make sure you keep the 'passion' for playing at a high level. If it means you play some different pieces for a while, so be it.

Those other scores you tire of - aren't going anywhere, I most certainly wouldn't neglect them permanently, just a change of pace - maybe if you play something different you'll find some helpful insight into playing the ones you have been working on. I have every intention of being able to play Hungarian Dance No. 5 - I will play it - simple as that - but I may need to switch around from time to time... I just love that composition... But I don't think amount of frustration will keep me from practicing that for a bit daily - once I start to even approach the level of skill needed for that (I suspect that'll be a long time indeed).

I guess a lot of it's personal, some people may well feel it's best for them to relentlessly persue that one piece - outta obsession, persistance, whatever... Some people may well learn better that way. I recall - for me - in the past, if I was having a time with one particular score, I'd switch to another or just simply play by ear a while - then when I went back to the original, it seemed to be easier.

I subscribe to the 'balance' theory, even though I'm not a Taoist - I think if a healthy balance exists between enjoyment, work, persistance, desire - all of that, you'll end up benefitting the most.

This is purely my newbie opinion; however... lol