repeated notes

[ravel]

Just heard Thibaudet playing Alborado del Graciaco....
The repeated notes in that were carried to perfection.....
which brings me to my question.. which maybe i should post as a separate topic... but I ll try here first.......
Someone please help me with REPEATED NOTES....
like the ones in Alborado sound insane............ sometimes i get the feeling that its almost physically impossible for the notes to repeat that quick...
does the piano have anything to do with that??? as in which piano is it...
Would thibaudet be able to play those repeated notes the same way on my Technics Digital piano hahahaha....
I guess he could.........
I know its all about technique and not the piano............
I know the 4-3-2-1 fingering and playing it at a slow pace... but the pace doesnt get faster ....with me.......... its so frustrating........
someone please.... any tips?

[phil13]

Actually, some of it does have to do with the instrument.

On a good grand piano, the mechanism has a catch on it that allows notes to be played repeatedly without completely releasing the key. Thus, the notes can be played faster than if the key were to be let up completely.

Of course, there are other factors determining how fast you can play a repeated barrage of notes. That's not a technique I am very competent in, so I will leave answering it to someone else.

Phil

[houseofblackleaves]

What I do with repeated notes is make sure that my wrist is as relaxed as possible, and then I do a sort of, erm, "flick" my fingers at the same spot... yeah, not a very good way, but it works wonders for me.

[ryan2189]

I am trying to speed up Scarlatti's Sonata in A minor, it is filled with repeated notes too. Anyone?

[lukeskywalker]

https://www.taubman-institute.com/html/web_videos.html
 

[lostinidlewonder]

Repeated notes always can be controlled as a group of repeated notes controlled by a continus dropping pattern of the hand. Like in the Ravel's Alborado del Graciaco when the Rh first comes across the repeated notes it is clearly defined as groups of three. These groups of three notes have a paticular sound associated with them, different to groups of 2 repeated notes or any other. Our fingers are kept close together, they all extend and raise as the first finger drops onto the first note of the group, then the rest of the fingers repeating that note continue to drop down with gravity. If we try to strike the note with individual finger movements we are just going to tire ourselves out very fast and have a hard time controlling the sound produced.

The piano you are on definatly effects how easy/hard it is to repeat notes. I find electric pianos with no touch sensitivity and instant key sping back action are the easiest instruments to repeat notes.

[ravel]

lol........... maybe that explains some of it.....  I have  a digital piano but  i usually have the touch sensitivity  set to heavy...
But thanks anyway for your suggestions guys,
and also for the Taubman video clip....... I will try and work on your advices.. and lets see where i end up.....
There is a video of Argerich playing scarlatti ....... it had tons of repeated notes... and she was awesome as usual.....

[iumonito]

Three more thoughts:

If you have the pedal down, you don't have to lift the weight of the damper, so the repeated notes in Alborada are easier than if you had repeated notes at the same speed in Scarlatti, where you probably would want them without pedal.

If the first joint of your finger is weak and collapses while you play, the time between you thinking of moving the key and the key actually moving increases.  Try to grasp (infinitesimally, but with confidence).

The piano matters, but if you were to repeat two-handed (like in Khachaturian's toccata) you usually can repeat faster than alternating fingers, and alternating fingers usually faster than single finger.  Being that you can get different results on the same instrument, it is clear that it is not all about the instrument.

[pizno]

Ah- a year ago this was my same problem.  It really did take a long time.  In the end, when I performed it on a Shigeru Kawai, it was much easier than my Steinway B.  I'm afraid I can't remember all I did to get it up to speed, but it took a while. I think one of the things was concentrating on keeping the other hand moving.  Sometimes it even took faking the repeated notes.    Relaxation helped, sliding the fingers toward me helped even though I think my teacher told me not to.  There is enough to worry about in this piece -like the final 2 pages.  Don't you have a real piano to practice on?

Piz

[pianistimo]

i find single finger repeats incredibly fast, now, for scarlatti.  in taking grad piano lessons, i learned you don't have to change fingers.  you give set points for as many notes are to be repeated and move incrementally inward on the note.  try it.  you'll like it.  and you can take advantage of the double escapement and use the 'inbetween' portion to just repeat notes quickly. 

i can still use this technique on my kawai upright - and i like it better than switching fingers now for scarlatti anyway.

ps my reason for moving inward is the mechanics of the hand and the piano key work together.  but, if you move outward - you are pushing down more and you have more distance (so you get finger slap).

[tocca]

i find single finger repeats incredibly fast, now, for scarlatti.  in taking grad piano lessons, i learned you don't have to change fingers.  you give set points for as many notes are to be repeated and move incrementally inward on the note.  try it.  you'll like it.  and you can take advantage of the double escapement and use the 'inbetween' portion to just repeat notes quickly. 

i can still use this technique on my kawai upright - and i like it better than switching fingers now for scarlatti anyway.

ps my reason for moving inward is the mechanics of the hand and the piano key work together.  but, if you move outward - you are pushing down more and you have more distance (so you get finger slap).

It's physically impossible to do repeated notes with one finger as fast as with two or more. It's of course a matter of practise, as with everything, but in my view it would be better to practise alternating fingers from the start.
Another thing is that using one finger will be more tiresome for the muscles in the long run.

[ramseytheii]

Repeated notes always can be controlled as a group of repeated notes controlled by a continus dropping pattern of the hand. Like in the Ravel's Alborado del Graciaco when the Rh first comes across the repeated notes it is clearly defined as groups of three. These groups of three notes have a paticular sound associated with them, different to groups of 2 repeated notes or any other. Our fingers are kept close together, they all extend and raise as the first finger drops onto the first note of the group, then the rest of the fingers repeating that note continue to drop down with gravity. If we try to strike the note with individual finger movements we are just going to tire ourselves out very fast and have a hard time controlling the sound produced.

The piano you are on definatly effects how easy/hard it is to repeat notes. I find electric pianos with no touch sensitivity and instant key sping back action are the easiest instruments to repeat notes.

I agree with the second part.  As far as the first part, I am generally opposed to trying to work out such problems with intensely detailed physiological methods, so I would like to offer some alternatives.
But first about the second part, the instrument matters so much that Kristian Zimerman said that much Ravel is only possible on a piano that has been mechanically modified to suit the composer's needs.  Repeated notes are a definite element in his music, so do not assume that Thibaudet's piano has not been adjusted in some way - it could very well have been!  That doesn't take anything away from him of course.  It could be the nature of the beast as Zimerman said.

Repeated notes come in different shapes and forms.  The first movement of the Tempest Sonata for instance has many repeated notes.  The trick there I discovered, is to not let the key come all the way up.  This way you achieve the slur effect and the repeated note at a very fast tempo.

For multiple repeated notes on the same key, whcih the Tempest does not feature, I recommend obviously switching fingers, but more than that, to pretend you are pllaying a five-finger pattern, or four-finger, whatever.  If I repeated G five times, 5-4-3-2-1, I pretend to be playign, G-A-B-C-D.  It is a mental image that has helped me overcome internal difficulties to repeated notes, and most if not all difficulties are internal.

Walter Ramsey