Mozart cadenza

[moon1]

Hi everyone!

I wonder if Mozart has written his own cadenza on his 21:st pianoconcerto in C-major??? If so, where can I find this score.

I mean all recordings are written not by Mozart.

The next question: which edition is best?

Now, all professional pianoplayers help me out with this, please, and share your experiences,

I will appreciate this a lot. Thank you.

Mozart players

[thalbergmad]

I am no expert, coz i dont play this stuff, but i think that either the Brahms or Busoni Cadenzas are used generally.

Thal

[kriskicksass]

I am no expert, coz i dont play this stuff, but i think that either the Brahms or Busoni Cadenzas are used generally.

Thal

Brahms and Busoni?!? That's about as far from Mozart's style as you can get! Generally when playing Mozart concerti as difficult as that one, you're expected to be able to improvise your own cadenza. I don't know what you do if not, though.

[ramseytheii]

For the Mozart 21, the Casadesus cadenza is pretty close to Mozart's style, a little closer to early Beethoven, but fun to play.  I used to have the pdf on my computer but it seems to be gone.  I will see if I can locate it for you and post it.

Walter Ramsey

[le_poete_mourant]

Brahms and Busoni?!? That's about as far from Mozart's style as you can get! Generally when playing Mozart concerti as difficult as that one, you're expected to be able to improvise your own cadenza. I don't know what you do if not, though.

If not improvisation, I know many performers on occasion write their own beforehand.  Brahms and Busoni wrote fairly good cadenzas; I don't think the point is necessarily to sound like Mozart in terms of style, but to capture the theme and the heart of the piece.  It really is all up to the performer. 

[pianistimo]

if you are intent on playing the K 467 first, you can also listen to murray perahia's.  they are very good.  someone else mentioned cassedesus - who was also recommended.  the problem is, finding these cadenzas or getting them transcribed off cd.  i don't know who does this.  i was looking for someone to do that very thing for my 'piano concerto' class.  badura-skoda's was cut and pasted by ashkenazy, i think.  it sounds ok.  but i like murray perahia's the best.  short and sweet.  mozart's were fairly short, usually.  beethoven gets wild and modulates farther than he should - and lengthens the cadenzas with more of a 'development' than mozart did.

barenreiter urtext has all the mozart cadenzas extant (i think) - but you can also imagine from reading the forward that some have probably gone missing.  the idea that he always extemporaneously played cadenzas isn't totally true.  he often had folios of his candenzas and kept them closely guarded.  wouldn't doubt that some of these missing ones were lost - but - i believe they existed at one time.  he was very particular about writing down the basic ideas of his cadenzas, imo.  even when he himself was playing.  and he distinguished in recital programs the difference when he was 'extemporizing' and performing a concerto.  even if he was using the basic chord progressions - he had at least a sketch. 

i wrote a paper on mozart cadenzas and i can't find it now.  but, basically mozart was not stylistically excessive.  he followed the general plans of the day (dg turk's rules for writing cadenzas:  klavierschule, leipzig 1789) and uses his own harmonic cycles.  they are short, have only bits of thematic material, have a good deal of sequence and figuration, do not use modulation (terribly), and use 'harmonic cycles.'  the subdominant regions are always elaborated after the 'interruption' (long held note- tremolos) and not before.  mozart gives a fine example of working in a composer's own themes into the cadenza with his writing of several cadenzas for js schroeter (a contemporary) although he also uses some of the composers own stylistic manners - so you cannot tell if he would use a similar cadenza in his own work.  but, in terms of a 'cross-reference' the K 626 AII - kochel writes 'piano cadenzas of mozart - not related to his own concerti.'

and, of course, you have all the extant cadenzas written for his own concerti.  that would be the safest way to go.  to play some of the ones that DO have cadenzas and get used to how they sound and what is 'appropriate.'  mozart's 'a musical joke' jested about how music can be 'second rate, superficial, stubbornly and enduringly devoid of any significant idea.'  he violates elementary laws of composition by creating consecutive fifths and octaves, doubling parts without account for texture, creating overly intrusive accompaniment in sections, and music that goes nowhere and cannot come to the cadence appropriately.  when the cadenza arrives for the violin, it is overtly an example of how a cadenza should not be written. 

arthur hutchings says 'beethoven's cadenzas are too interesting.'  and, perhaps it indulges in rather too many moods and illuminations, and thus has a retarding effect where an enormous pile-up of tension makes a fierce release indispensable (quote from badura-skoda).  many people wrote for the K 466.  i don't know who wrote for the K 467.  for the K 466 we have brahms and clara schumann's, too.  john cramer wrote cadenzas for K 450, 467, 482, 466, 491).  emanuel forster wrote pairs of cadenzas to three mozart piano concertos and sounded enough like mozart to have been requested by andre on a certain occasion.  heinrich henkel wrote one cadenza for K 503.  karl hoffman wrote cadenzas for K 467, 482, 488, 491, 503, 595 - but they were not favorably revewed in 1801 in vienna as they were thought to be overly massive and had overcharged figuration.  johann hummel composed for K 491, 595, 415, 413, 537, 459, and 414.  arthur hutchings thought they were also of excessive lengths.  especially K 491's.  although some think the ones he wrote for the K 491 are the finest ever written.  ie david grayson.  englebert humperdink wrote one for the K 491.  felix mendelssohn wrote for K 466, K 365.  audiences seemed to like them. (he may have written more?) mozart's own son franz xavier mozart K 466, K 460, K 467, and K 503.  they are preserved in the bibliothek des conservatoriori giuseppe verdi.  august muller wrote to 8 concertos.  he was the former cantor of the church of st. thomas and had been apupil of jc bach.  carl reineke composed cadenzas to most of mozart's pc's.  published them under op. 87.  camille saint-saens composed cadenzas to three mozart concerti but they are too foreign in style to be recommended.  aloys schmitt wrote cadenzas for third movement of K 466 for two pianos.  clara schumann's story is interesting.  bedrich smetana composed some for K 466 and K 595.  he was chosen to play mozart's d minor concerto for the 100th anniversary in prague celebrating mozart's birth. 

what i like about murray perahia's is that they are 'sparkling and effervescent' rather than long and tedious.

[ramseytheii]

If not improvisation, I know many performers on occasion write their own beforehand.  Brahms and Busoni wrote fairly good cadenzas; I don't think the point is necessarily to sound like Mozart in terms of style, but to capture the theme and the heart of the piece.  It really is all up to the performer. 

I think so too.  I don't think many players make much of an effort to restrict the style of their cadenzas to Mozart's style (though Robert Levin comes to mind); if they did that, they would also have to restrict the note range of their cadenzas by a few octaves, and even "unlearn" all the Lisztian and Chopinian-type playing they have been studying since childhood.  What's the point in restricting yourself in harmonic and textural style, if you are only going to introduce figurations that Mozart never imagined.

But I had a great idea.  Has anybody seen the show "Project Runway?"  These poor up-and-coming fashionistas have to devise on the spur of the moment several outfits, every show at least one new outfit, under all sorts of bizarre conditions (making an outfit out of recycled trash, making an outfit that mimics a fashion icon, etc).  What if piano competitions introduced a new element: everyoen had to play a Mozart concerto, and write their own cadenza, but you didn't know what kind of cadenza you had to write until two days before, like on reality TV.   Then two days before, they tell everyone, "Give us a rococo cadenza," or, "Give us a 1920's Berlin cadenza," or, "Give us a Sorabji pastiche cadenza."  This would put a fantastic new spin on boring piano competitions.
Who's with me?


Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

if you are intent on playing the K 467 first, you can also listen to murray perahia's.  they are very good.  someone else mentioned cassedesus - who was also recommended.  the problem is, finding these cadenzas or getting them transcribed off cd.  i don't know who does this.  i was looking for someone to do that very thing for my 'piano concerto' class.  badura-skoda's was cut and pasted by ashkenazy, i think.  it sounds ok.  but i like murray perahia's the best.  short and sweet.  mozart's were fairly short, usually.  beethoven gets wild and modulates farther than he should - and lengthens the cadenzas with more of a 'development' than mozart did.

I have some cadenzas for K467 on pdf, which I have attached to this post.  Many can be found on the internet, it's not too hard actually.  And the Casadesus is not really hard to find anywhere, except on my computer.

barenreiter urtext has all the mozart cadenzas extant (i think) - but you can also imagine from reading the forward that some have probably gone missing.  the idea that he always extemporaneously played cadenzas isn't totally true.  he often had folios of his candenzas and kept them closely guarded. 

Is that right?  I had always heard that the cadenzas he wrote down he actually wrote down for other people, like his sister.

and, of course, you have all the extant cadenzas written for his own concerti.  that would be the safest way to go.  to play some of the ones that DO have cadenzas and get used to how they sound and what is 'appropriate.'  mozart's 'a musical joke' jested about how music can be 'second rate, superficial, stubbornly and enduringly devoid of any significant idea.'  he violates elementary laws of composition by creating consecutive fifths and octaves, doubling parts without account for texture, creating overly intrusive accompaniment in sections, and music that goes nowhere and cannot come to the cadence appropriately.  when the cadenza arrives for the violin, it is overtly an example of how a cadenza should not be written. 

what i like about murray perahia's is that they are 'sparkling and effervescent' rather than long and tedious.

I think these days there are many performers intent on preserving a certain stylistic way of presenting these works, or at least what they think is a preservation, but could be an invention; they are happy to play within the confines of Mozart's cadneza writing.  But I am glad you put "appropriate" in scare quotes, because we have seen over the course of time that all kinds of cadenzas can work for different purposes.  A cadenza is first and foremost not an imitation: in fact it is by its nature the very opposite, it is an invention, based only on a given theme or themes.  So it is only natural, actually, that composers such as Schnabel, Busoni, Brahms, Beethoven, write cadenzas that reflect their own style, and not imitate Mozart's.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

ramseytheii, despite the fact we do not see eye to eye - i would actually like to hear these cadenzas and sort of 'taste the flavor.'  maybe in my later years i will let 'anything go.'  it's probably a sign of age.

right now i am rolling over and over and i'm not even in my grave yet.  but, when i'm on medication and nothing bothers me - i must just ask for a few of these.

ps  being a creative sort - i kinda like that idea of 'create your own cadenza competition.'  it would at least allow us to see if we have what it takes to even make our own.  everyone should be polite though, and not make faces if someone's is really bad.  everyone gets a prize for entering. we could see if our idea of what kind of hat or bling bling mozart should be wearing, fits.  i suppose if he were alive today - he'd want some creative juices going.

[teresa_b]

I don't think Mozart wrote a cadenza for K467.  Lili Kraus edited Mozart's cadenzas, and added a few of her own to some of the concertos--but I don't have a copy.  It's possible she may have written one for K467.  She tended to stay in Mozart's style.

Teresa

[moon1]

Thanks for your ideas and great information.
However I wonder if there are the cadenza by Murray Perahia on score ?
If so, where can i find this one?

Thanks! 

[kriseck]

Thanks for your ideas and great information.
However I wonder if there are the cadenza by Murray Perahia on score ?
If so, where can i find this one?

Thanks! 

I have for 1st part ;-)