starting an 8-year-old on scales

[ada]

Which scales should you cover in the first 12 months of teaching an eight-year-old beginner, and should they play one octave or two?

tks
ada

[brewtality]

what'd this poor child do to you?

[quasimodo]

what'd this poor child do to you?

I was about to reply something along these lines but I refrained .

[sarahlein]

How about all of them!

Find 24 (well ok, less if you consider the enharmonic scales ) different pieces each one using a different scale.
Then teach each scale as an introduction to each piece!

How many octaves? As many as your student likes!
 Your initial concern does not need to be the "correct" fingering-which mind you can be quite debatable.
Rather, it should be learning the notes and their importance in the scale. So have your student play the scales with one finger! You can always introduce the fingering a bit later, when he starts to feel comfortable with the notes of each scale.
If he is anything like my students he will have a blast playing from one end of the keyboard to the other!

[brewtality]

I was about to reply something along these lines but I refrained .

Je n'ai pas pu résister!

and randomly, thought François might have said something along the lines of "Heroin is da wikid sheet!"

In answer to the question, I remember when I was 8, I loathed scales! and if this child is utterly normal I would imagine he or she would feel likewise. For an adult I think B major is the best place to start. But in this case it may be different due to the small hand size. Oh dear, I am not very helpful.

[bernhard]

I agree with Sarahlein that the best way to introduce scales is by playing the scales that underly the pieces that the student is learning. I disagree that one should choose pieces in order to introduce scales. Let the student choose the pieces he loves (that should be the only criterion for piece selection) and I guarantee that in due time all scales will be covered.

However even this is poor motivation for learning the scale(s). there is much better way, and that is scale free-improvisation. This is one of the most empowering and musically enlightening way you can ever introduce scales to students. You can read the details of the process here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548
(using scales as the basis for free improvisation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3875.msg35175.html#msg35175
(How to teach triads – how to improvise using scales)

And since you are at it, introduce chords as well (chords are just another way to play a scale: in thirds as opposed to seconds):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2907.msg25589.html#msg25589
(how to teach chords to young children)

Even for small hands the B major scale will be the easiest to negotiate form a technical point of view (motion, anatomy, fingering), so it is probably the best to start. Have a look at these threads (if you haven´t yet ) for more details:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(an structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

Also, do your best to explain “meaning”. To practice something that is meaningless to one is basically impossible.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ihatepop]

Which scales should you cover in the first 12 months of teaching an eight-year-old beginner, and should they play one octave or two?

tks
ada

Doh Re Mi Fa Soh LA Ti Doh Ti Lah Soh Fa Mi Re Do........

Start with a few simple ones like this C major Legato. If he gets bored, try this:

Doe, a dear, a female deer,
Ray, a drop of golden sun,
Me, a name I call myself,
Far, A long long way to run,
Sew, a needle pulling thread,
La, a note to follow Soh,
Tea, a drink of tea and bread,
That will bring us back to Doh, o,o,o,o,
Doh Re Mi Fa Soh La Ti Doh, Soh, Doh!

Oh, I forgot you were teaching a 8 year old, not a 4.

I am soooo not Victor Borge.....

ihatepop

[hyrst]

I start my students on scales when it is time to extend passages in pieces by putting thumbs under.  I do not present scales as a strict technical form - except for intermediate students or those preparing for exams.  My students actually seem to love scales.  One of my 7 years olds even works out the scales herself by what sounds right - and she has been doing that since a couple of months after beginning lessons.  I think my students like the systematic way of playing - and it's easier than reading pieces.  I am not too strict on figering, but I do encourage correct fingering and timing.  The 7 year old I mentioned before likes to play from one end of the keyboard to the other.  We make a game of it - can she play more notes than me, etc?  I start with C major because it is simple for both hands and the fingering doesn't matter to start with.  The 7 year old worked out B major before anything else.  From there, I usually work with the scales that are needed becuase of the pieces that are played.

I don't think 8 is too young to start scales - so long as you don't put pressure on perfection.  Even my 5 year olds like them - becuase they are playing notes that are easy to find, I guess.

[ada]

Thanks so much for your replies.

Bernhard, I haven't had time to read through all the links you so kindly provided but be assured I will.

I'm not a qualified teacher and I'm only covering the basics with him to see if he's interested before getting him a real teacher. All the same I don't want to be getting it wrong.

This is a real beginner and he's only just learnt all the white notes.

But I've taught him C maj hands sep, hands together and contrary one octave, with the old coin on the back of the hand trick. I was letting him keep it if it didn't fall off but he's getting too good now and it's becoming expensive 

[quasimodo]

But I've taught him C maj hands sep, hands together and contrary one octave, with the old coin on the back of the hand trick. I was letting him keep it if it didn't fall off but he's getting too good now and it's becoming expensive 

Hey, Brewtality was right. You're a sadist  .

[bernhard]

But I've taught him C maj hands sep, hands together and contrary one octave, with the old coin on the back of the hand trick. I was letting him keep it if it didn't fall off but he's getting too good now and it's becoming expensive 

Ada you are a whimp! You are using coins? And rewarding the boy?

No, no, no. Place wine glasses filled with water on the back of his hands, and make it clear that if drops the glass he will stay overtime (and clean the mess).

The best motivator is fear and punishment. (I hate sissie´s pedagogy)

( a good slap with a wooden ruler now and then is also recommended)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mephisto]

The coin thing is useless. One doesn`t play a piano like that. I think I read Bernhard write that in correct playing the coin would fall off.

[ada]

The best motivator is fear and punishment. (I hate sissie´s pedagogy)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

in that case, maybe I'll just send him to Ingagroznya 

[ada]

The coin thing is useless. One doesn`t play a piano like that. I think I read Bernhard write that in correct playing the coin would fall off.

Really? I thought it got them into having good hand position and stopped them dropping their wrists.

But hey what would I know. As I said I'm not a qualified teacher.

What do other people reckon about this idea?

[stevehopwood]

in that case, maybe I'll just send him to Ingagroznya 

Sadist 

[debussy symbolism]

Sadist 

I think there is some validity in having a strict approach. A very lax teacher isn't going to help the student as much as a strict teacher will. However a strict teacher will do a great job demotivating a student too.

[stevehopwood]

I think there is some validity in having a strict approach. A very lax teacher isn't going to help the student as much as a strict teacher will. However a strict teacher will do a great job demotivating a student too.

Make your mind up DS 

[debussy symbolism]

I....don't.....know....Too....much....pressure....

Joking asside, a teacher needs to be strict in the sense that he/she needs to be determined, but not lose the compassion needed for fun learning and teaching.

[stevehopwood]

I....don't.....know....Too....much....pressure....

Joking asside, a teacher needs to be strict in the sense that he/she needs to be determined, but not lose the compassion needed for fun learning and teaching.

I know, DS; I am only teasing.

It is perfectly possible to be rigorous and maintain a sense of fun and pleasure in what is being done in a piano lesson.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

Yes.

[quasimodo]

Seriously, Ada, I think a good teacher will find the right way to make him interested.

[stevehopwood]

Leaving aside the teasing, here is what I do.

I take the key of each new piece and get the kids to 'copy as an echo'. I play each note of the scale and the kids copy in their own time. When they go wrong, I wait until they sort themselves out. I do one octave up and down, separate hands.

I do this before starting the new piece. As you can imagine, C, G, F majors get quite an airing. When a piece is modal, or using the natural form of the minor, I simply teach them the major to avoid confusion.

The kids enjoy this; scales are familiar to them by the time they have to learn them, say for an exam (actually the only time my kids have to learn them  ). When they get to the point that they can do the scales without me, I can get them to do two octaves, or one with both hands together.

They love it if we have a few seconds left at the end of the lesson and I show them a silly scale for a beginner, say Eb harmonic minor.

I do not insist they practise the scales on their own. Mind you, some do because it was fun in the lesson.

Hey, I am back on the 'enjoyment' thing again. Wonder why? 

Steve 

[eastcountypiano]

My students like scales.  I start them off with going from c to g and then back down.  After about a month I show them what it looks like when I do it and then they want to do it.  I teach the C scale with 1, 2, 3, tuck, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  When they get that I move to going down, then on to the left hand, up and then down and then both hands together going up and then down.  It takes a while.  They are playing songs in the key of C during this time.
When we get to playing songs in the key of G, then I go to teaching them a g scale and start talking about key signature. 
Then when they play in the key of F, we learn the F scale and talk about key signature.  By then it is all making sense to them.

[eastcountypiano]

P.S.  I also want to mention how much scales can help with developing finger strength, control, hand positioning, etc.

[pizno]

How about starting with tetracords, using 2-3-4-5.  Learn all the tetracords, then add the top tetracord to round out the scale, using 2 hands. 

For a great scale book, check out Jane Tan's 'Scales have Twins and Triplets'.  Good stuff, teaches the fingering in a very easy manner.

Piz