vibrato on the piano??

[klavierkonzerte]

yesterday i was reading an operatic fantasia by henri herz on meyerbeer huguenots

and there's a variation marked vibrato 

exactly how is that suppose to be done?

[prometheus]

Doesn't it mean to play a trill?

Otherwise you will have to adjust the tension of the string to create the vibrato effect, which is basically impossible on a piano.

[thalbergmad]

I have looked at the score and see what you mean.

That marking even if it were possible, surely would make no sense in that section.

Perhaps it has another meaning, but i dunno what that would be.

Thal

PS Where is Bernhard when you need him.

[leucippus]

Just buy a small battery-operated remote-control vibrator.
(you can probably figure out where to buy one. )

Place it snuggly under the string in question between the bridge and the anchor point of the string.  This way, when the vibrator vibrates it will cause the string tension so undulate with vibrotic oscillations.

Then tape the remote control button to the floor next to the sustain pedal.

When you get to that part of the piece press the vibrator button with your foot.

At least this is how I do it when I perform of this piece live on stage.

[invictious]

I remember there is a type of piano where you can create vibrato by moving your finger up and down the key..

[bernhard]

I remember there is a type of piano where you can create vibrato by moving your finger up and down the key..

You can do that on a clavichord.  I doubt very much a piano that can do the same exists.

Also sometimes a composer will notate what he hears in his mind. In his mind a piano could do vibrato. The notation becomes a clue for what he had in mind, even though it may be impossible to achieve in real life. (Many Beethoven markings in his sonatas are like that, e.g. he has rests marked fff). Such composers assume that you will figure out the sound they had in mind in your mind, and then strive to realise this imaginary, perfect sound, somehow in an inperfectly designed instrument for the purpose.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[arbisley]

beethoven also wrote a crescendo on one note in one of his sonatas. Badura-skoda said in a masterclass that I saw that you had to do it with the expression of you body, which brings us back to should we or not express with our bodies? if yes, how much?

[kriskicksass]

beethoven also wrote a crescendo on one note in one of his sonatas. Badura-skoda said in a masterclass that I saw that you had to do it with the expression of you body, which brings us back to should we or not express with our bodies? if yes, how much?

Due to the cross-stringing of the modern piano, there is always a slight crescendo on each note played while the damper is depressed; it takes a fraction of a second for the proper strings to ring in sympathy. While this is a standard part of the piano's sound, it can be taken advantage and (seemingly) increased by proper body motions. I'm not here to say what I think is proper, as that's subjective, but I thought I'd just throw that in to say that the guy giving the masterclass wasn't exactly whistling dixie.

[franz_]

It's all in the mind. Like, when you think the melody is played by a trumpet, it will sound like a trumpet. Think you are playing a vibrato on f.e. a violin, and you will bring this feeling up to the public.

[invictious]

How about playing the note with one hand, and the other hand to gesture vibrating by shaking it violently?

[arbisley]

Due to the cross-stringing of the modern piano, there is always a slight crescendo on each note played while the damper is depressed; it takes a fraction of a second for the proper strings to ring in sympathy. While this is a standard part of the piano's sound, it can be taken advantage and (seemingly) increased by proper body motions. I'm not here to say what I think is proper, as that's subjective, but I thought I'd just throw that in to say that the guy giving the masterclass wasn't exactly whistling dixie.

I think that beethoven probably didn't have the benefice of the modern piano, and that the "guy" is actually and renowned expert on Mozart and Beethoven, himself being austrian. He is now about 80, used to be a great perfomer himself, and is possibly one of the most reliable sources when it comes to the interpretation of germanic composers. see:

https://www.badura-skoda.com/

it's actually quite interesting.

His approach was probably less technical than musical, but after all, as he said himself, how can one teach all there is to someone on the piano about any particular piece in 1 hour?
Of course, I would use both approaches and make the best them!

[quasimodo]

(Many Beethoven markings in his sonatas are like that, e.g. he has rests marked fff).

Do you think that was related to his deafness  ?

[dnephi]

Do you think that was related to his deafness  ?

No.

Had to be a shocking silence.  A silence so loud.

[prometheus]

Think you are playing a vibrato on f.e. a violin, and you will bring this feeling up to the public.

When I delude myself into thinking I play wonderfully perfect I still play crap.

The audience is totally oblivious to your or mine delusions. Let alone that they are impressed with them. Actually, if they do perceive something it will be arrogance or something like that.

[ramseytheii]

The audience is totally oblivious to your or mine delusions.

That's so true.  Once I heard Martha Argerich play the Ravel concerto; during the second movement, people in the audience were actually crying.  It was terrifically beautiful.  Afterwards I offered my congratulations backstage; she said, "Yes, but there was no magic!" 

Walter Ramsey

[jre58591]

i saw the word vibrato while scanning herz's 4th piano concerto. it was on an arpeggiated section in a cadenza. i didnt hear anything that sounded like vibrato. i dunno, perhaps its just an effect he wanted created by the arpeggio.

[quasimodo]

No.

Had to be a shocking silence.  A silence so loud.

A deafening silence  ...

[Goldberg]

It is said that Busoni created a vibrato effect by rapidly moving the sostenuto pedal up and down while holding chords; this can also be seen in his music.

[ramseytheii]

It is said that Busoni created a vibrato effect by rapidly moving the sostenuto pedal up and down while holding chords; this can also be seen in his music.

It is definitely an effect that is more than one imagined in the composer's ear.  I believe Liszt taught it, and it was known in the early Russian school (it can actualyl be heard on a recording of Scriabin playing one of his op.11 preludes).  It has to do with the pedal and the voicing of all the notes around the intended vibrato.  Liszt of course notated it many times in his pieces.  But I believe it is really one of those effects, like holding down chords without playing them a la Schoenberg op.11, that can be heard at best 3 rows from the stage.  With modern recording techniques, you can sometimes hear the pedal going up and down, so it has to be extra-super-subtle in order to be succesful.   

However, I believe it was Arrau, who used to do a vibrato motion on long held notes in Classical repertoire, for the purpose of giving the audience a visual reminder of the sustained pitch.  Also, if you try it on the piano, you'll find it is a quick way to relax your arm and joints.

Walter Ramsey

[kaiwin]

Vibrato on the piano.
It exactly means "vibrato on the piano"
It doesn't change the sound or anything but its the motion.
It looks cool, but doesn't do anything.

[ramseytheii]

Vibrato on the piano.
It exactly means "vibrato on the piano"
It doesn't change the sound or anything but its the motion.
It looks cool, but doesn't do anything.

Although shaking the key won't vibrate the string, the extra time that it takes to shake out a vibrato, and the mental concentration on the effect, may very well affect the sound.  The other voices will comeo ut balanced in a different way, so that the vibration of the dissonance or consonance takes front-stage; the note will last a bit longer than one would play it mechanically, and an impression of vibrato can be made.

To say that the piano unequivocally can't create vibrato is as unimaginative as saying a harpsichord unequivocally can't create accents.

Walter Ramsey

[arbisley]

some people tend to integrate the "vibrato" into their style of playing, well, I've seen one person doing that. The worst thing was he did it on an electric piano...

[quasimodo]

some people tend to integrate the "vibrato" into their style of playing, well, I've seen one person doing that. The worst thing was he did it on an electric piano...

Well, I think that some modern electronic keyboards actually restitute vibrato when you do that on the keys.

[jas]

You can do vibrato on a clavichord, and there were various experimental keyboard instruments doing the rounds that could manage it, too. Don't remember any of the names, though. They were mostly variations on "claviharpcembatubanetorgan", or something like that.

[dnephi]

You can do vibrato on a clavichord, and there were various experimental keyboard instruments doing the rounds that could manage it, too. Don't remember any of the names, though. They were mostly variations on "claviharpcembatubanetorgan", or something like that.

Clavicembalisticum?

[jas]

Clavicembalisticum?

No, I was just kidding. They had all these weird names which were often combinations of different instruments, that's what I meant.

Jas (going to stop trying to be funny)