Rachmaninoff Prelude in Gminor

[eyeballnick]

Anyone have any advice in tackling this piece?

[arbisley]

All I can say is it looks really fun to play, if rather difficult.
hours of practice in my view!

[lau]

i remember hearing a little bit of this peice one time and thought it was the coolest thing ever, but i only heard like the first line.

then i found it somwhere and head the whole thing and it blew me away. so now i am learning it...thought i might say that. (I have no advice)

[gyzzzmo]

1 as with all pieces, start slowly  .
2 Especially in the beginning of the piece, play it steady.

gyzzzmo

[pianowolfi]

All I can say is it looks really fun to play, if rather difficult.
hours of practice in my view!

Not only hours, months.

[walking_encyclopedia]

Anyone have any advice in tackling this piece?

i'd recommend beginning the middle arpeggiated section and the beginning at the same time, being that they're rather unrelated. that's a good way to learn a new piece, in sections.

i learned this piece and performed it three months after i started. so as long as you're willing to practice hard, it shouldn't take long. i mean, it is a difficult piece but not long. plus it is repetitive.

the hardest part is getting it up to speed. this piece has to move along at a very fast clip.  be prepared to love your metronome.

even the middle section which is a two-octave arpeggio played by the left hand, should be fast enough so that the arpeggio sounds like a swish up and down, not each individual note (though each individual note should be given its full value)

play the very last line extremely fast and at a pianissimo dynamic. that gives the ending an awesome, ethereal effect.

good luck

danny

[ekirth]

I played this piece a few months ago; it's one of my favorites.

Besides the tips other people said, I guess I'd add that you should watch the repeated sixteenth notes in the beginning and ending sections and make sure they're clear and even.  I had some difficulty with that, as my hand would really tense up and thus make the notes unclear; it's quite easy for the hands to become tense at a fast tempo.

It certainly is a fun piece (and quite nice for showing off ).  Enjoy.

Btw, I'm new here, so *waves hi*.

[pizno]

Hello
I just read ekirth's email and I could have written that.  In fact, I was going to say the same thing.  It is tricky, playing those repeated 16ths fast without tension.  I had one teacher tell me to move my hand up the keys as I played, moving toward the fallboard, ending with a lift of the wrist to release tension.  Make sense? Another teacher was more of the 'bouncing ball' school, but I think the other makes more sense, as it leaves your hand in a good position to travel back to those octaves.

The other thing I would say is that it HAS to be memorized.  I am not a very good memorizer, but I forced myself because the thing goes too fast otherwise.

Someone earlier said the other thing I would say - which is to begin with the middle section.  It's gorgeous,  But took me a lot of time before I had it down.  It is tricky to bring out the different voices, so practice that very carefully.

Also, I waited too long to learn the last 2 pages, which was a mistake.  They have their own challenges.  They should probably be learned early on too.

So, while you have the book open, take a look at the D major one before it.  I played this one too and loved it.  The one after it (forgot the key) is also gorgeous.

[robertp]

I've studied this one. Pizno is right.

Best to memorize. If you can play it without memorizing, you'd probably...have a recording contract with DGG  .

Tension. Yes, Yes, Yes. Releasing it is crucial. Not just here...I found once I found ways of releasing tension my playing of everything took a real jump forward. Methods will differ depending on person and piece. Pizno's ideas are good, will work...and can be a fine starting point. If you're tense, you would play up to ability. As I've learned.

[ilikepie]

Yep, I'm gonna take this as a repertoire-adder piece(or just for fun). I don't think it will take me anymore than 2 weeks to get this up and going. Of course, it will entail hard work, but I've already learned all the notes 2 years back to relieve boredom. I don't think getting it up and going is gonna be too hard since I'm also playing Hungarian Rhapsody no.11 which IMO is way more difficult than the prelude.

Mmmm... advice? I'd have to say that this piece is not extremely difficult, but to get the melody flowing that even untrained ears can identify the melody is quite a challenge. Hidden or secondary melodies is common in the more lyrical area of this piece, and should be proceeded with care as to smoothly connect them. I'd also advise you to take it slowly, as rushing will do you no good. As much as possible, try to get all the fingerings right the first time as having wrongs fingerings will develop in the bad habit, especially in the expressive area of the piece(left hand, gotta get those notes flowing). I will be coupling this piece with a new prelude, also no.5 (op.32) in G major also as a "repertoire-adder".

I hope all goes well. This is an extremely delicate piece. I just wish it wasn't so overplayed.

[lynbron]

The big problem with performing this piece is SPEED. As we get closer to the Rachmaninoffs suggested speed (108 to the quarter note), the more likely we are to tense up. Tension can cause you to rush, miss notes and get a harsh sound. The middle section can be played more slowly.

This piece sounds really great at 92 to the quarter note as a performance tempo, but it initially ought to be practiced slowly and carefully starting out at 60 to the quarter note. 

A common mistake often heard on recordings is to resume full speed at measure 50, but it is much more effective when you start slowly at measure 50 and gradually increase speed to "a tempo" at measure 58. 

Another big mistake in this piece is "banging." Notice that only about ten out of 86 measures are marked ff, but many people play much too loud and get some ugly sounds.
There is an absolutely knockout recording from 1960 of the Prelude in G Minor by Sviatoslav Richter which contains two Preludes from Op. 32 and four Preludes from Op 23. There are other performance by Richter that are not so spectacular as this one, so if you are looking for the really great Richter performance, make sure the recording has the six Preludes (two from Op. 32 and four from Op. 23). Anyone who has ever heard this performance has practically broken a leg to get to the piano to learn this great Prelude.

Incidentally, in the Ruth Laredo Edition of the Preludes for CF Peters, she recommends a speed of 112 to the quarter note, but this can result in a overly rushed and superficial performance.

Lyn Bronson

[pianogeek_cz]

These are a mixture of what should definitely be there and my personal interpretation, it's in no way any sort of a Definitive Guide to Rach 23/5. Feel free to disagree.

To the first section:
Ad 1 - Rhythm is imperative. I don't mean no rubato (will come to that later on...), I mean that the rhythm should feel like a steel skeleton. The pinnacle of performance with this prelude (At least the outer parts...) is when you have the audience nailed in their seats, then come to a rubato (like, possibly, last eigth of bar 9), they want to sigh with relief - and whoa, the steel snaps back in.
Ad 2 - As has been already said, observe the dynamics carefully - be stingy with your fortissimo. Also, even though for example bars 17-22 are marked forte, keep the strong dynamics in the accents, make a crescendo with the four legato sixteenths from somewhere around mf or so. The rest can be kept piano and the thing will still sound strong and resolute, just as it should. Same principle applies to the ff bars 22-29, all that needs to be ff are the notes with the stem down, the chords can be kept at a piano.
Ad 3 - A very, very slight belating of the accentuaded chords in bars 22 and 23 sounds very, very good.
Ad 4 - Avoid jumping in early ANYWHERE like death! It sounds as if you're tripping over the keys...
Ad 5 - Think in larger portions, not in beats but in shorter phrases (A bar, or, better, two... This applies to middle section as well.)

The middle section is, I'm sure you've noticed, a complete contrast to the outer ones. Everyone, even the most musically and intellectualy ignorat person in the audience, should notice that from the first chord. Or even before that. Therefore:
Ad 1 - Breathe. Temporarily no steel skeleton. As if you were singing a picture... (Interdiciplinary art... )
Ad 2 - LH sixteenths are to be kept subdued at all times. They're something like the cornfield rustling in the wind, if you get the drift... (I don't want to interfere with your imagination, I just think it's a fitting image. ) Bass should, however, be always there (Optional exception: replace the low D in bar 41 by the f sharp on the 2nd beat.). In some places stronger than elsewhere (I tend to bring out the lovely G-F-E flat-D-C sharp-D progression in bars 39-41 a bit more...).
Ad 3 - Note how the dynamics of the topmost melody and the middle voice in bars 42-45 interwine. While the middle voice is pointed towards the a1, the melody had its peak already. While we're speaking about the middle voice - sure have it there, but don't bang it out! That's one of the best ways to spoil the entire prelude. There's a long note in the RH as the middle voice comes in with the d1-e1..., so you can afford starting pp and it will still be clearly audible.
Ad 4 - Again, observe the dynamic marking well. The most you get here is mf. (See? Another contrast. The whole range of expressions in this part has to fit within half the dynamics of the outer parts. That's one of the many things which make these several bars probably the most difficult section. At least for me, anyway. ) It is also a very good idea to observe the decrescendos in those mf-marked bars.

To the 3rd part: It's almost the same as the first one, with a few changes:
Ad 1 - The accelerando starts at bar 52 and ends at bar 58, which is already a tempo, and should have a steady rate throughout (to avoid that damned stumbling feel...). One of the biggest interpretational problems I encountered was that I overshot and, in order to keep the accelerando fluent, ended up around 120 bpm, which is almost unplayable.
Ad 2 - The skeleton is back right from bar 50. Make them feel it, even though it's slow! (There's a ritardando in bar 49 which should mark the end of the middle section and therefore be quite pronounced, but nowhere is said that bar 50 and 51 should be faster than how you end bar 45. If you can keep your nerves calm in these bars and not rush them, it really sounds like waking from a dream... ) )
Ad 3 - A deviation from interpretation of bars 22-29: There's a new melody from bar 72, which keeps going at least until bar 80, in the RH upper voice. Bring it all out, not just the 5-chord figures. The chromatic progressions in bars 74-75 and 78-79, as they go in opposite directions, are simply wonderful. It's a pity to hide them from the audience!
Ad 4 - I must disagree with walking_encyclopedia about the last line, if you rush it, it sounds as if from some other piece - it makes the prelude fall apart. Of course, keep it as pianissimo as possible, but very straight.

With the following practice tips and some rather intensive work, I was able to get this prelude on the stage in three weeks. However, it does requires great discipline (as does everything...).

How to practice:
The middle part is not a big problem technically (At least not for us Revolutionarists... :D). The jump in bar 40 is annoying, but you can afford a slight ritenuto in that part... I wouldn't object to using 5-2-1-5-3-2-1-3-2-5-1-2 fingering for the run in the first half of bar 36 and similar runs, it's quite comfortable for me, but I don't know how will it work for you.
The outer parts are more challenging, since they require some very fast wrist work and uncomfortable jumps. Metronome is a key tool here. Practice the jumps always with preparation, think forward (where will I go after I play the next note...). Start at some 40-60 bpm and be fanatically rhythmical. Don't let a single note slip. Make sure you depress all the keys to the fullest, with firm fingertips but relaxed wrists. That's difficult!
It's usefull to think of the two hands as of one hand vertically - e. g. they should always be in the same height above the keyboard (which generally shouldn't be very high - I don't really like the way some pianinsts play it as if they had springs on their fingertips...).

It's getting late here, I might remember something useful I forgot now tomorrow...

I hope this helps.

[thierry13]

Not only hours, months.

Hrm ... it's not THAT bad ...

[penguinlover]

I am working on this too, I should say re-working after thirty years!  I went to youtube to listen to recordings of this to compare how I was doing.  I spent all night, and heard many different botched performances.  The biggest mistakes were in the over use of the pedal, not observing the dynamics, and speed.   There was one guy who played it a lightening speed, but you didn't feel any emotion because of it. 

You may want to do the same, and make notes of the pitfalls to avoid.   I love pianogeek's interpretation of it, having the audience nailed to their seats.  It is a beautiful piece if played properly.  Have fun!

[pianowolfi]

Hrm ... it's not THAT bad ...

Ok it's different for different people, but i like to have 3 months time for a piece like that.

[zheer]

Ok it's different for different people, but i like to have 3 months time for a piece like that.

   Yup, this one of the more difficult preludes, the true difficulty is in the music, infact since i have studied Rachmaninoff's own recording of this i would say that Rach had some difficulty in playing it well. Giles plays it better than Rach.

[pianogeek_cz]

I've found another pitfall today. It's strange that I didn't notice it earlier... It looks like I still have loooads to work on... Blech. 

In the third section, the bars around the six repeated g-minor chords, it's important -not- to attack the first notes of the chord progressions, but make fluent crescendos instead, otherwise, it's one hell of an artillery assault on the audience and they get completely lost. I mean the ascending legato-ed bar starting with the e natural half-note, the six repeated sixteenths chords, and the g minor-b flat diminished-D major-g minor ascending part. It's a small detail, but it can mighty ruin the performance as well.

   Yup, this one of the more difficult preludes, the true difficulty is in the music, infact since i have studied Rachmaninoff's own recording of this i would say that Rach had some difficulty in playing it well. Giles plays it better than Rach.

Would you mind sending the Rach recording over? (My e-mail address is in the profile.)

[penguinlover]

I love the way Giles plays it!!  I agree with his interpretation.  Too many pianists play it too loud, not musically at all.

[pianowolfi]

   Yup, this one of the more difficult preludes, the true difficulty is in the music, infact since i have studied Rachmaninoff's own recording of this i would say that Rach had some difficulty in playing it well. Giles plays it better than Rach.

Sorry, I don't agree with your claim of Rach having difficulties with this prelude. I think he just played that with extreme rubato. But of course Gilels is awesome. Did you listen to Ashkenazys 1975 recording? It's breathtaking, about M.M. 132 the quarter. I cant believe my ears.

[penguinlover]

I just found it on youtube.  Didn't check the performance time.  I wish I could hear Rachmaninov himself play it.  He, of all people, should know how it should be played.  I sure would love to hear him play it!

[zheer]

Would you mind sending the Rach recording over? (My e-mail address is in the profile.)

 I would if i new haw. Not sure haw it is done from a CD.

[arensky]

Ok it's different for different people, but i like to have 3 months time for a piece like that.

I do too. In fact I have just over three months before I play it on a recital. Started on it last week and it's going quite well, I can play the first page and the middle section. Still playing the 2nd page very slowly, I expect it will come together this weekend. I think the principal danger in this piece is to get glued to the keys and therefore ground out when your wrist gets tense. The wrist has to be very flexible and rebound off all those martial passages, like a drumstick.

This piece isn't easy but I'm having an easier time with it than the a minor Prelude Op.32 #8. The bottom of the 2nd page of that one is downright sinister, scary stuff. 

[penguinlover]

I have been listening to the performance Gilels has done over and over.  For the life of me, there are some notes he brings out in the middle section that I can't even find! I have practiced over and over, have the speed almost there, and most of the internal melodies.  But I hear him do it, and read along in the music, and still can't see how he comes up with some of it.  Am I super-dense or something?  I didn't hear it from anyone else I listened.  Wish I had the music with me so I could refer to the measure number, but it's about eight measures from the end of the section.