Buying a grand piano in England

[kaveh]

Hi all,

Hoping I could get some piano purchase advice...

Been playing exclusively on a Yamaha CLP130 (no room for a piano in my flat), but I finally have the opportunity to buy a real piano.  Parents are moving to a house in my neighbourhood which sports a nice open plan foyer/lounge area, which looks like it's just missing a piano.  Reasonably high ceilings, wooden floors.

After some discussion, they've agreed on a size limit of about 6'2.

Budget isn't huge... around 10-15K (~$20K), and so far, this is the best I've come up with-

https://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/modelspec/yamaha%20c3l%20grand%20piano.htm

Discounted new Yamaha C3 from a leading dealer.  However, my piano teacher is not the biggest Yamaha fan...

I've considered looking for a second-hand Steinway, but wouldn't know where to begin, and have heard that shopping for one may be full of pitfulls for the unwary.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Kaveh

[a440]

Hi
It sounds to me like a Kemble Grand KC173 is the obvious choice. Don't believe anyone who tells you it's just a Yamaha with a kemble badge. When you have the 2 next to each other the difference is staggering. At present, Kemble have a very small production run of grands - yes they are built along the Yamaha C lines- but have a superb attention to detail. They are very keen to increase their production so are going overboard with their finishing at present (superb toning and regulation). The Kemble badge has great cashe' (better resale value than a Yamaha).
You will not be disappointed!
 Try https://www.headingley-pianos.co.uk They currently have an  Autumn Sale with Free delivery on all Kembles.
Good Luck!

[kaveh]

Found a couple of dealers that are selling the Kemble for £9700 inc delivery.  Seems like a great deal.

[leahcim]

I've considered looking for a second-hand Steinway, but wouldn't know where to begin, and have heard that shopping for one may be full of pitfulls for the unwary.

Doesn't everyone in the uk go here?
https://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/pianosinstock.php

TBH, for around £10k+ you probably have local dealers that would do. If you were after something really special, a new steinway or whatever it'd probably be worth scouring the country.

Kemble are [imo, and from a general impression] yamaha build quality with arguably better sound, but if you search the various forums for folk, especially those playing classical, spending £10k+ on a grand piano, the advice and the list of names they'll get won't typically have Yamaha or Kemble in it.

I'll leave those posts / posters to talk about the Kawais and Bechs and so on...

I doubt either kemble / yamaha will sell better than the other given an intelligent buyer [it'll be worth whatever it is worth given the usual factors like age / condition and so on]

Avoid that kind of BS from kemble / yamaha dealers especially, but from any dealer. Simple logic says that stuff that's chucked out cheap as chips on the internet with huge discounts when bought new and where the price is falling year on year aren't going to have high 2nd hand values.

Perhaps for an upright, at the bottom end of the market where a few hundred pounds cheaper makes the 2nd hand one affordable in the first place for a low budget, even 30 year old junk Ux series go for daft money compared with the new price. But if you've got £10k-15k to spend and a new kemble is £9700 before you've started negotiating another 10-30% off, extra free tunings, stools, music lessons and whatever else in the shop takes your fancy [as they sound pretty desperate to me] how much would you spend on a 2nd hand one? It won't be any more than any other 2nd hand make, that's for sure. If it is, buy one of the others 2nd hand instead.

If you want to sell pianos buy a shop not a piano You will lose money on your purchase, the key thing is about what it's like to live with, before it rots away to junk, not some false promise of a 2nd hand price based on a badge.

But since you aren't looking for an upright, it's difficult to see why you'd want either anyway.

[kaveh]

Hi Leahcim,

Thanks for your post.  Lots of useful info there.

As you can tell, this is the first time I've been piano shopping, let alone looking for a quality grand.  Does the naivete shine through? 

Spoke to a couple of piano technicians today, who agree there is little difference between Yamaha's and Kemble's.  Conclusion was that, if anything, the Yamaha's will have better resale value due to the durability and recognition of the name.  Not that resale value is high on the agenda.

After a bit more thought and research, I'm quite keen on the Yamaha C3 again.  I realise it may not be the most prestigious model, but if it's good enough for conservatoires, upmarket hotels, restaurants etc, it won't be too amiss in my parent's house.  I can save my dreams of buying a new Steinway for later!

I definitely like the idea of having a brand new piano vs a reconditioned one.  I was told today that the sensitivity of the hammer action is something you can never replace, and most recording studios/professionals would use a new piano, rather than an older, more illustrious one.  Again, don't know anything about all this, just reiterating what I've been told.

Found a dealership near Oxford that are offering a new C3 for £10,500, which includes all preparation, voicing and delivery.  What's more, if I EVER decide to upgrade, I can part exchange for a fixed price of £8660 (original price minus VAT).  Then again, don't know how relevant that is, as I probably should be 'scouring the country' if I'm looking for a quality new Steinway/Bose etc.

If you disagree with any of this, for whatever reason, I would be very interested in hearing from you. 

Buying a grand is not something you do everyday, so I want to be making the most informed choice I can.

Thanks,
Kaveh

P.S. Will look into Hurstwood Farm Studios - thanks for the link.

[a440]

Hello Kaveh,
I would suggest playing lots of pianos. All this talk is like reading the lonely hearts column... You can only find the right piano by getting out there and playing. My suggestion about the Kemble was based on your budget, I find the Yammys too dull, you can get more character for the same price. The C3 deal does sound good, but you can't rely on a dealership taking back a piano (EVER is a long time!). The Kemble deal sounds good, are there any add-ons to the price? -stool , tuning etc. Get back to other dealers and see if they can match on price.
Used Steiways are a minefield!!
Good luck!

[leahcim]

After a bit more thought and research, I'm quite keen on the Yamaha C3 again.  I realise it may not be the most prestigious model, but if it's good enough for conservatoires, upmarket hotels, restaurants etc, it won't be too amiss in my parent's house.  I can save my dreams of buying a new Steinway for later!

Well yes, but bear in mind some of those places have different criteria.
If I were buying a car, looking at what they use to teach someone to drive might tell something about build quality, parts, price, economy and which makes offer the best discounts / market the best to people who buy fleets of vehicles at a time, but it's not necessarily going to tell me about what I'd choose to drive.

I would say this

(a) Go to every piano shop and dealer in your local area, find a handful of pianos in your budget, new or second hand that you love, i.e Play everything [even stuff over and under your budget too see what your money buys] and plan on going back for the ones that stick out. The ones that, given a less rational attitude you might buy on the spot...don't buy something the tech says is good, or that looks good value, you need to select pianos that first and foremost your ears and hands pick, be poetic about it, but leave your wallet at home

(b) Find a local tech [you'll need one anyway] who is willing to come along and inspect / check the pianos you've chosen to give advice, then go back to see them again to buy one. At that point, he can say "Nah, it's got a cracked doobrie" or whatever.

At which point, hopefully you'll have found a piano you love that you're confident is OK,  because a tech has checked it...and you'll have played it at least twice. Then once again, forget how much you love it, haggle to get a good deal - you should at least cover any dosh the tech wants for his time.

Just consider that you're not buying a digital, so where you can buy any Yamaha CLP170 and they are all the same that's not so true with acoustics. Prep can affect it a bit too but the wise people [not me] seem to say that that pretty much what the piano is like is what it'll be like, prep won't fix a bad piano.

If you really want to go to town, get the larry fine book and come back and tell us how to buy a piano But google and usenet should find you lots of people on various forums talking about the different makes - and there are a lot more than Yamaha - that's all I'll say about that

[kaveh]

We can supply a new Yamaha C3L 6’1” grand piano in polished ebony finish for £9,950 including VAT to also include:

- Ground Floor Delivery

- Showroom Selection Service from 2 New C3’s

- Full Bespoke Preparation (voicing, regulation, tuning) – by a Yamaha trained technician

- 5 year Guarantee

- Tozer 5018s handcrafted top quality solo adjustable stool with proper jointed legs (not bolt on/wing nut), double braced mechanism, dovetail jointed seat frame, deeply upholstered seat in a choice of colours in dralon or vinyl covering

Email from Chris Venable's Pianos, apparently no 1 UK Yamaha dealership, and they are purportedly run by technicians, don't employ any sales staff.

[melengi]

bristol piano company is good

[kaveh]

Latest update.

Finally managed to get in touch with a piano dealer my teacher recommended.

He's offering a Petrov (192cm) for £9000, and said he might be getting a couple of Weinsteins or August Forsters soon.  (although I've heard they're essentially one and the same)

In case you hadn't guessed, have ordered the Larry Fine book from Amazon.  Need to address this cluelessness.

[kaveh]

Saw a very nice piano today.

Brodmann. 

Apparently originally destined as a Bose 2nd line, project scrapped, before some well-established Bose staff (technicians, management, marketing) left to set this company up independently.  European parts, (?Tibetan wood), European expertise, Chinese production (Yiching).

Was taken by a good friend of my teachers, a former Bosendorfer technician.

Just visited the showroom in Chilton, Colchester today, and spoke with Colin, co-founder.

Brodmann 187.  Very playable, with a meaty bass and a rich, colourful tone.  Very well presented.  I really liked it. 

Even next to a similar-size Bosendorfer (either 6' or 6'1, five times the retail price) it definitely held it's own.

While I was at the showroom, couldn't resist taking a ride on an Imperial Bosendorfer.  What a thrill! Played itself as it swept me along in it's furious tsunami.

Now, my experience with grands is virtually non-existent, and I haven't been playing for all that long so I accept my analysis might be inaccurate.  Also difficult finding objective information about Brodmann on the net.

Does anyone here have any experience with this line?

[kaveh]

My piano teacher gave me the go ahead.

Deal closed.

 

[a440]

So how much did you pay? I hope you don't mind me asking!
 I think german parts chinese assembled pianos are the future. The Schumann pianos are amazing for the money. I played one the other day. They are similar quality to Bluthner but about a quarter the price!