morals

[steinwaybaby]

where in the world do you get your morals?  such as the christians get there's from their bible and such........where do us good,law keeping, and piano players ( ) get ours from and where did these ideas form from....also what are some of your morals you hold to? 


steinwaybaby

[pianistimo]

hammurabi? 

of course, if you believe that history tells a story - you can see where hammurabi fit into the scheme of things alongside the biblical story.  you just date the tablet and fit it into bible history.  babylon had many rulers that believed in other gods.  Bel, for instance.  they were 'righteous' supposedly - but always had many similarities of writing to the laws of the one true God.

there are many false gods.  so they seem 'godly' after a fashion.  it's just that they allowed sexual immorality - which is not called such today.  some laws were even towards sacrificing humans.  that's a pretty poor law.  of course, one might argue - abraham was requested to sacrifice issac.  but, God was showing His difference from other 'gods' by having MERCY.  other 'gods' are merciless.  there has not been a human that has been sacrificed to God - except a girl in the bible whose father had vowed that the first thing to run to greet him would be sacrificed.  in essence, he didn't think very far ahead and felt obligated to fulfill this vow.  some people are mentally off, imo, and don't plan ahead.  their family suffers from their views.  it's not in God's nature to ask anything more of us than what we can handle.

God's laws are merciful and kind and just.

[steinwaybaby]

hammurabi? 

of course, if you believe that history tells a story - you can see where hammurabi fit into the scheme of things alongside the biblical story.  you just date the tablet and fit it into bible history.  babylon had many rulers that believed in other gods.  Bel, for instance.  they were 'righteous' supposedly - but always had many similarities of writing to the laws of the one true God.

there are many false gods.  so they seem 'godly' after a fashion.  it's just that they allowed sexual immorality - which is not called such today.  some laws were even towards sacrificing humans.  that's a pretty poor law.  of course, one might argue - abraham was requested to sacrifice issac.  but, God was showing His difference from other 'gods' by having MERCY.  other 'gods' are merciless.  there has not been a human that has been sacrificed to God - except a girl in the bible whose father had vowed that the first thing to run to greet him would be sacrificed.  in essence, he didn't think very far ahead and felt obligated to fulfill this vow.  some people are mentally off, imo, and don't plan ahead.  their family suffers from their views.  it's not in God's nature to ask anything more of us than what we can handle.

God's laws are merciful and kind and just.

[/b]

i would have to disagree with you....

[prometheus]

Even Christ needs reason to be a moral teacher.

Just read the bible. 'Do not unto others what you do not want others to do unto you' is a basic principle in morality that just holds up under most normal conditions.

If you would only use this as moral guidance then, assuming your judgement will not ruin it, you will do pretty well in most cases.


Contrary to any laws god, or a person that claims to represent her, you can test and examine this principle.

Another moral principle would be to protect the weak. Because often the strong get they way and the strong will bully or abuse the weak. So if you stand up for the weak you will be doing well. And with 'the weak' I don't mean 'the underdog'. I mean animals, children, the sick and disabled, etc.

There are many more things one can base morality on.


Do note that the law doesn't have right on its side. Laws can be just as well bad as good.

I am not going to argue with Pianistimo again. Let me just say that I think everything she said is extremely silly.

[pianistimo]

instead of saying what i said is silly - make me understand what you said that is better.  the bible says to treat others as you wish to be treated...and in many scriptures to think better of others than yourself.

when you find fault with others, prometheus - you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.  God is my judge.  not you.  so don't call me or anyone else silly or stupid, ok.  or else, tell me what i said that you think is silly.

silliness is when someone is not being serious.  i am completely serious.  hammurabi is taught in almost all of the history books here in the usa as the beginning of civilized code of conduct.  prove me wrong. 

according to the bible - when adam and eve were created - God 'walked with them.'  that means that He was teaching and telling them about the creation.  Adam named the animals - and God kept the names that he gave and allowed adam a certain amount of authority over the earth and earthly creatures.  God also told adam all the commandments, otherwise his son Cain would have been guilty of nothing.  but, God does not presume guilt until His laws are verbally given or written down.  His fairness extends to all peoples and races.  there is noone that can claim they existed before God or will exist after.  He possesses all knowledge.  that is my belief and i don't think there can be any better one for claiming that man's knowledge and laws are 'copies' of God's.

[prometheus]

I am going to regret this and this is going to degrade all discussion.

it's just that they allowed sexual immorality

What is immoral about sexuality? And I say this as a celibate.

Abraham was requested to sacrifice issac.  but, God was showing His difference from other 'gods' by having MERCY.

This shows God is cruel but then she realised her own cruelness.

Actually, the OT god does not show much mercy. Like you admitted before. The OT god is evil. But the NT turns it around.

...other 'gods' are merciless.

I could make up 'another god' right now that is as merciful as I am able to write down in words.

God's laws are merciful and kind and just.

But we don't have god laws. We only have a a reference to it. We don't have the ten commandments. Only an interpretation of them, which is totally useless since most different forms of this religion each have different interpretations.

Also, we don't know the punishments God has for these laws. If you look at the OT god often kills as a punishment. That is not merciful.

[maul]

I am afraid of God and going to hell, therefore I am moral... for the most part... well, whenever I feel like it. When I don't feel like it I just ask Jesus to forgive me. That's what real morality is. When you are scared into it. I really feel like a deep moral person knowing that if I'm not moral I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity, but hey, if I'm not, no big deal. I just ask for forgiveness. Silly Satan, you can't get me you big ol bully.

[prometheus]

I once heard a christian claim that satan can take people to hell regardless of what God wants to do with them. God can't safe you, according to him. If you have bad luck you will end up in hell regardless of what you do.


The same person also claimed satan had power over the vatican. He was an advisor to two popes and a very smart people. But he was brainwashed as a jesuit.

He was also a main exorsist. Just shows what religion can do with smart and talented people.

[pianistimo]

have you read the bible prometheus?  you make statements, but cannot back them up. 

the bible is full of promises and also curses for physical breaking of laws of God.  deuteronomy 28.

also, in terms of archaology, solomon's wisdom has proven useful throughout the ages because of it's timeless quality.  God does not change.  He is constant.  therefore, if you interpret his laws different than what He says - who is to blame?  you or He?

www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm

they are absolute in many cases.  there are ways to find out if you are keeping them.  for one, you WILL be blessed.  there is no case that i have ever seen a person who keeps God's commandments be cursed.  He will not curse a righteous person.  one who accepts Christ and turns from sin.  what is sin?  doing anything you want?  interpreting evil for good? 

i don't think you are an evil person, prometheus - and many people believe as you do - but there are others who do not.  take for instance in utah - there's men that keep many women and tell them that if they do not adhere to their family - that they have lost their place in heaven.  this is not a doctrine of God. 

there are people who abuse children.  this is not of God, either.  there are people who divorce for other reasons than adultery.  simply hating their spouse and leaving.  this is not 'of God.'  God wants happy families.  the only way a family can truly be happy (and solomon figured this out - with God's spirit) is for a young man to learn to first respect and honor his parents and remember the words of his mother who taught him the laws of God.  to resist the temptations of life - wherever they come - and be a man.  men think nowdays that if they lay 1000 women - they are real men.  i believe that God says a real man has what you posess prometheus.  morals.  and, standards that they live by.  not being persuaded to do or act in a certain way because other people force the ideas.  whether it be school, work, movies, whatever.  it's a way of looking at the world and not being persuaded to do evil when it looks good.

i think that God has it all figured out.  and did from the beginning.  He made everything good.  so, if you go to the beginning - even sex was made 'good.'  it is only mankind that has made it sound evil and degrading.  trading good for evil and evil for good.  i'm sure that adam and eve had a pretty good time and they weren't confused by other partners or had std's or sexual dysfunctions.  they were healthy and expressed a healthy sexuality. 

where morals come into play with stealing, murder, fornication/adultery (with someone that youa re not married to)  they are direct commands.  there is nothing to interpret.  you either keep the law or you don't.  Christ came to expand on these and said 'he that is angry with his brother without cause is guilty of murder.'  so, we know that even anger misplaced is wrong.  how would we know this without Christ explaining it?  we wouldn't.  we'd think anger was ok.  now, not being a perfect Christian - i am guilty of many of the explainations of the law - but Christ said 'one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law until all is fulfilled.'

how do you get around being imperfect?  well, as i understand it - you accept Christ paid the payment for sin in your place.  if you accept his sacrifice - your sins are thrown as far as east is from the west.  but, as paul says 'should we keep on sinning...for grace?'  no!  he answers his own question.  he says to put on the mind of Christ - which is all about our thoughts .. because our thoughts lead to actions.  if you change your thoughts you can drastically change your actions.  if you are thinking of good things - you don't have time for stuff that your conscience says is wrong.  (if you rely on conscience and not the bible). 

i think many people are doing 'good' - but they don't realize that God is the one who decides what good is.  no man can decide good.  only God.

[pianistimo]

i'd like to say one other thing.  not everyone who says 'here is Christ, or there is Christ...' is said in the bible to be true.  the pope is NOT the representation of Christ here on earth.  he isn't even a FATHER.  there is only one father.  Christ came to tell us to not be decieved.  and, he said 'call no man abba or father.'  so why do people look to the pope?  i don't know.  read the bible.

Christ is our intercessor and always has been.

i am not out to diss churches - but i do not believe that there are many true churches.  i think there is ONE true Church.  the church of God.  it may be made up of many believers in many churches - but to God they all cling to the same belief structure that is not 'interpretive' - but rather quite straightforward.  that EVERY word of God is inspired for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.  that every word of God is TRUE.  not that it's a story or made-up.  not to be believed in the 20-21st century.  some theologians hold to this - and say it's all a story.  this is not true religion, imo.

God says exactly as you do prometheus - that true religion is visiting the widows and orphans in their need, and keeping oneself unspotted from the world.  sinless as much as possible.  there is no mention of any one of the disciples granting sainthood to only a few people.  sainthood was EXPECTED for ALL christians.  so why does the catholic church only grant it to a few?  good question!  one to ponder.

there are many deceits and they are growing more by the day.  Satan is jealous for the 'family of God.' He doesn't want people to beleive God has mercy.  but, He does EVEN IN JUDGEMENT.  there is no scripture that says humankind gets the same punishment as satan.  in revelations - there IS a second death in which all who did not accept Christ as their savior literally die a second death.  burned up.  for all eternity they are DEAD.  no more.  there are places in the prophets that confirm this.  otherwise - they would have eternal life (although damnation).  you CANNOT have eternal life without God.

[johnny-boy]

Just shows what religion can do with smart and talented people - Promey

And what greed, lust for power, sex, ambition, politics, philosophy, education, eating, "falling in love", etc. can do to smart and talented people. What’s your point? People can abuse and distort anything.

John

[pianistimo]

i don't doubt there are people who are more moral than some christians.  but, some christians are newer christians.  Christ called them 'babes' that needed a sort of 'milk' and not 'meat.'  they learn the elemental things of God and 'line upon line, precept upon precept.'  say, if you are from a country that doesn't allow God or God's word - then you wouldn't know some of God's laws. 

i think i understand where prometheus and the original poster of this thread, steinwaybaby, are coming from.  they have an 'internal' dvorph system (which is fine) - but they don't realize that even if you are the most perfect person in the world - you might then lack humility which will land you the same punishment as the worst criminal in the world.  without Christ, we are nothing.  literally.  He is the only one able to ressurrect us from the dead. 

if anyone took offense from my differences from the catholic faith, i'm sorry!  it is purely doctrinal and nothing else.  i know a lot of good catholics and i'm probably far behind many of them in terms of how they raise their families and their decision making processes.  please know that i believe God is stronger than any 'religion' and that He can redeem whomever He pleases (catholics, protestants, you name the religioN) - what He does not like is for us to hear the Word and go away (as from a mirror) forgetting it.

i believe there is a scripture in the bible that says that the Word of God isn't up to any man's interpretation.  have to look that one up.  i remember reading it somewhere.  so, in that sense, the bible is to be taken literally (excepting dreams and parables) word for word as truth.  sometimes it seems hard to swallow - say, jonah and the whale, etc. etc.  but, if you think about the magnitude of the creation - what is there that God cannot do?  He can literally do anything.  create miracles.  change water to wine.  whatever He deems right and good - He does - but it always has a good purpose behind it.  He is not random.  maybe His humor occasionally -but even that seems to fit a purpose. 

[prometheus]

Any christian will tell you that her or his opinion on religion is stronger than their opinion, for example, on eating. Exceot maybe if their are professional cooks.


I don't see why one would assume that a non-believer would have a much stronger view on the other fields you had.

Except for something like falling in love. Those come close to religious passion.

[pianistimo]

if that is true, then why is discussion of God not allowed in the public schools and universities?  the 'religion' IS philiosophy, education, and entertainment, imo.  sex is only a very small portion of what fills a person's brain (which is a form of worship).  'gods' can be anything we put before God.  things that take up time that we could use for prayer and meditation.

i think fewer people are 'falling in love' nowdays, too.  i think they are 'falling in lust.'  it is not a lifetime committment.

[johnny-boy]

Any christian will tell you that her or his opinion on religion is stronger than their opinion, for example, on eating. Exceot maybe if their are professional cooks.


I don't see why one would assume that a non-believer would have a much stronger view on the other fields you had.

Except for something like falling in love. Those come close to religious passion.

I was speaking about smart and talented people in general; which includes believers, non-believers, and everyone in-between.

John

[pianistimo]

yes. tolerance is a good thing to have on both sides.  i am probably guilty of sounding intolerant sometimes on this board.  in real life - i don't go around asking personal question of people and scowling when they kiss in public or anything.  in fact, on the campus that i went to - i often looked up to a lot of the musical people and could care less of their relgious affiliation.  perhaps i should.  i don't know.  all i know is that whom you marry is probably of more importance as to what things you share in common.

but, there is the issue of the 'great commission.'  now that is not necessarily given a specific place - but i do think that there is such a thing as a time and place for everything.  if one is learning one subject - i don't think interjections of religion would convince everyone that Christ is a savior.  i think they might be repulsed.

if there are bible study groups that students go to - or prayer meetings - then it is a choice if someone wants to hear something or not.  i am in favor of 'everything decently and in order.'  that includes conversation.  you might be surprised about that - but in real life - i am not a door to door type.  in fact, i don't recall  bringing up religion to my piano teacher or anyone in particular that i am learning music from unless they asked!

[pianowolfi]

Even Christ needs reason to be a moral teacher.

Just read the bible. 'Do not unto others what you do not want others to do unto you' is a basic principle in morality that just holds up under most normal conditions.

If you would only use this as moral guidance then, assuming your judgement will not ruin it, you will do pretty well in most cases.


Contrary to any laws god, or a person that claims to represent her, you can test and examine this principle.

Another moral principle would be to protect the weak. Because often the strong get they way and the strong will bully or abuse the weak. So if you stand up for the weak you will be doing well. And with 'the weak' I don't mean 'the underdog'. I mean animals, children, the sick and disabled, etc.

There are many more things one can base morality on.


Do note that the law doesn't have right on its side. Laws can be just as well bad as good.

Strange, I often disagree with what you say, but this I would second.

[le_poete_mourant]

Morals come from a good family upbringing, common sense, and compassion. 

[phil13]

sex is only a very small portion of what fills a person's brain

Obviously you have never honestly heard what is on a man's mind. 

Responding to the original poster:

I think everybody has a moral compass that they follow. This is influenced by their own personal conscience and by people around them- their parents, teachers, peers, friends etc. After all, when we are born we do not know what is right and what is wrong. That is taught to us first by our parents and then it is expanded by the people we see every day.

Phil

[prometheus]

Obviously you have never honestly heard what is on a man's mind. 

Or even better, what is on the mind of the pope.

[johnny-boy]

Or even better, what is on the mind of the pope.

He's human like the rest of us. I think one's actions are all important, not one's fantasies.

I'm aware of the commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife", etc., but come on, the flesh is weak.

John

[prometheus]

I meant that almost all christian morality concerns sexuality.

[pianistimo]

what about the other nine commandments? 

i think in societies before ours (with luxury of time) people didn't have time to focus on sex exclusively.  i mean 100 years ago, there was no 'cosmo' magazine.  'what your man is thinking about.'  obviously if he's at work - he's supposed to be thinking about work.  they say that 20% of the time, he's thinking about sex at work.  that is why you should always work close to where you live.  but, unfortunately in my case - you need a badge to enter the building.  it's their way of keeping wives out.

i don't think the problem is with christians, per se - as with another thread - they are more likely to have satisfying sex lives.  it's just that there is not the amount of 'variations' on a theme.  for instance, i don't think anal sex was meant to be.  but that doesn't mean that it's any of my business for another person. all that i've read is that God didn't make it to be healthful (risk of disease), there is no lubrication, you can actually do damange (people aren't told this as youngsters), and with men (and women who are exposed) there is a risk of getting aids.  the limitations on one's sex life from the bible is not likely to change people's outlooks as much as the diseases one can get.  so, either way - it is shown to be a cursed sexuality.  but, doesn't make other sins any better.

as i see it - sexuality is really something that isn't taught to be controlled.  but, solomon, after all his years just flaunting his good looking self around realized that 'true love' was something to be valued much more.  if you really love a woman - you aren't going to be asking her for sexual things that she doesn't find appealing.  if you find out what she does like - then, you are likely to have a fulfilled sex life.  if constantly asked to do things unappealing - there's a dead-end relationship.  perhaps people should discuss this before committing to a relationship/marriage.  to me, the Christian outlook if adhered to, keeps one clean both mentally and physically.  and there is no risk to children either.  as i understand it...children can be addicted to drugs before they are born - have std's at birth (from entering through the woman's canal), and be affected mentally and physically from wrong sex practices.  if someone teaches their children to 'just say no' - i think they are making a wise choice.

[thalbergmad]

I'm aware of the commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife", etc., but come on, the flesh is weak.

John

I think we can dispense with that commandment and just have 9.

Or perhaps "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, unless she is really fit"

Fortunately, my neighbours wife is a bit of a bus, so i cannot see me breaking that commandment.

Praise the Lord.

Thal

[ada]

I thought this was a piano forum, not a f***ing bible studies class.

I am like, SOOOO over this. Like, totally.

[pianistimo]

ok.  so finish your story thread.

[ada]

Well I did wrap it actually. But it needs to be collated and edited. And at the moment I am on deadline for massive six story online series on personality so I am cranky.

Also got up at 4.20am to practice piano but we have had a downpour here and the house got flooded.

double plus cranky.

All of this has nothing to do with morals. sorry.

[johnny-boy]

I thought this was a piano forum, not a f***ing bible studies class.

I am like, SOOOO over this. Like, totally.

Actually this is posted on the "anything but piano" thread. It's not all that surprising to have the Bible enter a conversation about morals.

John

[ada]

The f****ing bible enters into everything here. It really gets up my goat.

[pianistimo]

sorry to hear the pressures you are under, ada.  you can have this forum all to yourself tommorrow.  i am addicted and i knowit.  just trying to pull my fingers away and go actually practice.

i am convinced personality is almost fully developed in kindergarten.  each of the children at the bus stop is sooo different.  take the little boy who, when his mother says she sees the lights of the school bus coming - takes off and runs toward the main street to see better.  his mother anxiously calling and wishing she hadn't said anything (as she has another child in the stroller).  then, the boy that went with him that jumps onto the side-street and back on the sidewalk (risktaker).  all the girls seemed to tamely wait in line - determining their places - of which the boys -running back - cut in front of them while using large arm motions.  my daughter proceeds to get on last (well planned) so she can tell the bus driver a long story about turning five.  her birthday must have been ok. 

now, i want to see a profile of these kids 20 years from now.  the first boy, scientific.  the second a sky-diver.  the third (the girls who go first, middle, and last) showing a willingness or not willingness to follow.  (of course, getting on the bus isn't really that planned - so it varies every day).  i'm just curious, though, how much personality is even at birth?  when i brought my second daughter home from the hospital and let my son hold her - she promptly raised a fist and hit him in the nose.  first day home.

[ada]

i'm just curious, though, how much personality is even at birth? 

The very latest research from the Uni of Michigan, published in the current issue of PloS Genetics, says genes account for only 19 per cent of NEO PI traits, ie, conscientiousness, neuroticism, extroversion. The rest is environment.
 
I'll PM you the link for the stories when they are posted if you're interested. Then you can read more.

[maul]

The f****ing bible enters into everything here

The bible also is known to enter through the ear and into the mind like a poisonous serpent.

[pianistimo]

yes.  i am interested.  hope you get some rest sometime or other!  just pm me whenever later on.

memminger, you got it backwards.  satan is the serpent and he twists a few of the words around - so that the apple looks better.  he says 'you won't die from sinning.'  but the fact of the matter (as i understand it) is that we all will die.  death and sin go together.

life and peace are a promise in eternal life with God at the ressurrection of the dead.  if there was no ressurrection - i don't think it would matter if we had morals or not - as there would be nothing stopping us from doing whatever we liked whenever we liked.  a sort of animal existence.

[bernhard]

memminger, you got it backwards.  satan is the serpent and he twists a few of the words around - so that the apple looks better.  he says 'you won't die from sinning.'  but the fact of the matter (as i understand it) is that we all will die.  death and sin go together.

The serpent was framed.

BW
B.

[pianistimo]

more likely the serpent tried to frame God and lost his legs.  if you think about it - if it says 'from now on you will go on your belly'  they must have gotten lopped.

[Siberian Husky]

I WAS ALL EXCITED TO JUMP INTO THIS DISCUSSION UPON READING THE NAME OF THIS THREAD AND GRABBED MY BOOK ON MORAL PHILOSOPHY TO REFERENCE WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MY OWN INTERPRETATION ON MORALITY AND WHY IT IS SO!!

NOT EVEN 3 POSTS DOWN AND THIS DISCUSSION HAS GONE TO *** WITH RELIGIOUS DEBATE

WHAT THE *** MAN!

WE SHOULD MAKE A "RELIGION" FORUM TO QUARANTINE ALL THESE REDUNDANCIES!

DONT GET ME WRONG, I'M ALL FOR RELIGIOUS TOPICS AND ENJOY A HEALTHY DISCUSSION ON BELIEFS AND RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALS BUT IT'S NOW TO A POINT WHERE A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION BLEEDS FROM ALL CORNERS OF THIS FORUM.

WHY CANT WE JUST STAY ON TOPIC?

THIS THREAD IN PARTICULAR OBVIOSLY CALLS FOR SOME REIGIOS REFERENCE AS MANY PEOPLE'S ETHICAL CODE DERIVE FROM A RELIGIOUS BASED BELIEF SYSTEM. LETS, HOWEVERE, MAKE AN EFFORT TO KEEP THE BACK AND FORTH DEBATING TO A MINIMUM SO POOR MEXICANS LIKE MYSELF CAN ENJOY THE FRUITS OF LIVE AND HEALTHY DISCUSSION.

THANK YOU.

THAT IS ALL.

[pianistimo]

who's stopping you? this thread is comparatively short compared to the .9999=1 thread.  why don't you add something anyways?  what is this book on morals that you have?  (i don't think you have one). if you do - is for keeping everyone happy or just a few?

[bernhard]

I WAS ALL EXCITED TO JUMP INTO THIS DISCUSSION UPON READING THE NAME OF THIS THREAD AND GRABBED MY BOOK ON MORAL PHILOSOPHY TO REFERENCE WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MY OWN INTERPRETATION ON MORALITY AND WHY IT IS SO!!

NOT EVEN 3 POSTS DOWN AND THIS DISCUSSION HAS GONE TO *** WITH RELIGIOUS DEBATE

WHAT THE *** MAN!

Er... instead of moaning, why not bring it back into track?

For intance:

Is morality intrinsic to man (are there any examples in the other species of what we might term "moral" behaviour)?

If so, is it an "inner" inescapable trait (I am purposefully not using gentics here to leave it more open), or does morality arises of social necessity? And how can one decide on the matter beyond the mere stating of opinion (By the way, saying that the Bible says so is mere stating of opinion and does not count).

This should get us back on track.  Now bring on those hefty volumes, SH!

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[pianistimo]

 oh, yes.  let's enlarge everything, too.

[bernhard]

the only heft volumes he has is a stack of playboy magazines and few doggie collars (the ones that keep the fleas off).

Playboy magazines? Excellent! Bring them on. I heard there are some great articles and in-depth interviews in them.

BW.
B.

[pianistimo]

just joking siberian.  actually, he's a cool guy.  i like him because he takes care of his animals and is usually not psycho.

where have you been anyways?

[Siberian Husky]

Er... instead of moaning, why not bring it back into track?

For intance:

Is morality intrinsic to man (are there any examples in the other species of what we might term "moral" behaviour)?

If so, is it an "inner" inescapable trait (I am purposefully not using gentics here to leave it more open), or does morality arises of social necessity? And how can one decide on the matter beyond the mere stating of opinion (By the way, saying that the Bible says so is mere stating of opinion and does not count).

This should get us back on track.  Now bring on those hefty volumes, SH!

Best wishes,
Bernhard

Oh stop it Bernhard, you dont have to hide it, you know you love it when I moan.

I do believe that there is an intrinsic form of morality. I believe it comes with the package of intuitive capacity that contributes to the "human element" which seperates us from other organisms.

I do however believe that moral relativism is self defeating, and moral ethnocentrism promotes a decline in moral progress.

I guess i dont have a concrete understanding of how morality works in our work, but I will make the statement that absolute morality exists in a sense of an overall ethical code that all humans are not only apart of, but accountable for.

There is alot of misunderstanding on the superficiality of morality. For instance, Eskimos practice infanticide, while we in a Westernized culture drop jaws to that idea and would never advocate the killing of infants. Upon first impression, it seems that these two moral codes differ so greatly from one another it seems impossible that they stem from the same source. However, the bottom line is that both these societies value life, but in different respects. Western society preserves the life of infants for they are, once born, life forms with equal rights, and certain Eskimo tribe people practice infanticide to ensure  there are enough resources to go around.

thoughts?

[pianistimo]

desperate times and desperate measures?  we have probably never experienced 'lving off the land.'  so, if we were to try - our infants would die whether we wanted them to or not, probably.  from disease and starvation.

having carried a child for 9 months - i can't say that i would want to kill my own baby if there weren't enough food.  i'd just pray.  God provided for the widow and her son by inspiring her to sell some oil (that God miraculously kept filling in her empty jars).  He is a life-giver -so i don't think i should take something that doesn't belong to me.

[bernhard]

There is alot of misunderstanding on the superficiality of morality. For instance, Eskimos practice infanticide, while we in a Westernized culture drop jaws to that idea and would never advocate the killing of infants. Upon first impression, it seems that these two moral codes differ so greatly from one another it seems impossible that they stem from the same source. However, the bottom line is that both these societies value life, but in different respects. Western society preserves the life of infants for they are, once born, life forms with equal rights, and certain Eskimo tribe people practice infanticide to ensure  there are enough resources to go around.

thoughts?

But isnīt this evidence for the propsition that morality is not intrinsic but society based? Different societies, with different needs will develop different moral codes.

If morality was absolute and intrinsic, would it not be universal?

BW,
B.

[Siberian Husky]

But isnīt this evidence for the propsition that morality is not intrinsic but society based? Different societies, with different needs will develop different moral codes.

If morality was absolute and intrinsic, would it not be universal?

BW,
B.

This is when i, and others, should take into consideration the importance of balance.

For we of course are not solely products of nature, but also cultural constructions.

We have the ability to differentiate between "right" and "wrong," this is fact, and for the most part universally understood. I believe this basic reality to be the foundation for intrinsic morality.

Different moral codes represent cultural and social variables that feed off the reality that we as humans can and will make choices about what we believe to be true or fale, wrong or right, black or white. etc.

Social and Biological Balance.

[pianistimo]

no doubt communities and societies play a huge role in what is accepted and what is not.  it's like an announcement of where you live (weather related, population related, terrain related, family related)

but, when examining HISTORY - it all comes to a point.  two people.  adam and eve.  babel - the formation of different languages (which split up the earth into nations).  and further splits politically and religiously over the ages.  so, now we have a very DIVERSE world.

[bernhard]

but, when examining HISTORY - it all comes to a point.  two people.  adam and eve.  babel - the formation of different languages (which split up the earth into nations).  and further splits politically and religiously over the ages.  so, now we have a very DIVERSE world.

And let us not forget Hansel & Gretel, Rapunzel, Snow white and the seven dwarfs.

BW,
B.

[pianistimo]

archaology proves fact.

[Siberian Husky]

And let us not forget Hansel & Gretel, Rapunzel, Snow white and the seven dwarfs.

BW,
B.

I :heart: you for that one haha

[pianistimo]

those are the hefty volumes bernhard has.