A "new" trick for tremolos in the Pathetique

[kolmogorov]

Hi,

I want to share a little trick I've found recently for using with the left hand tremolos of beethoven's Pathetique Sonata.

It may be interesting because I have not found this trick anywhere, but is has resolved completely my playing in this difficult part.

While I could play the first mvt about 140, I was not satisfied with my left hand tremolos: they were rythmically ok, but my thumb did not play its notes in a clear way, so the tremolos were somewhat blurred.

My rotation mvt was ok towards the pinky , marking the rythm playing louder each two bass notes by bar, but the other rotation way (towards the thumb) was weak. Or at least that was my reasoning at this moment.

So I found in a forum I could play each three notes forcing an accent in the last of the three, so some times the accent falls in the bass notes and other times it falls in the upper notes. It would help my thumb to be more secure. It is a good method, by the way.

Playing that way for 5 minutes at low speed, helped with metronome, I found THE trick that works for me:

The correct movement for playing each note is not (or at least not only) forearm ROTATION; it is also HORIZONTAL (arm-forearm) MOVEMENT left-right-left-right. That is, for me, the most important part of the movement is to rapidly move from one side to the other. (In my case , I think I'm playing a mix of rotation and horizontal mvt , but i'm not sure ).

That way, I can play totally relaxed for long without get tired, and all the notes are clearly audible. I think it works because it frees me from keeping the other finger (pinky, fourth or thumb) completely glued at the other note, and the hand can then be a little bit less open to the octave length. My hands are not big (a ninth at most).

Hope this helps, since we are all tired of finding solutions such as "be totally relaxed...your wrist should be suple, etc." which are true, but ...what are the possible movements that allow us to play that fast tremolos being relaxed? That is the question.

Also, I want to remark that tremolos means something like "to shake", or "to tremble" what is exactly the sort of "Parkinson" movement I'm trying to explain.

(I hope my english is ok in this explanation...)

Javier

[netzow]

That's Interesting I'm working on that section right now. I haven't gotten  it up to performance speed yet, I'll have to try that. Thank's for posting it!

[faulty_damper]

The motion you describe is not a trick.  It is one of the required movements that make the tremolos easy because the interval is not small enough that allows primarily the rotation of the forearm (unless you have unusually large hands).

This is actually a good learning place for you to be acquainted with your body.

Since you've figured out that the side to side motions combined with the rotation work with intervals on an octave, figure out if this motion is still needed for 7ths, 6ths, 5ths, and 4ths.  And lets not get smaller: go bigger!  Try 9ths and 10ths.  (If you'd tried 9ths and 10ths, you would have figured out the motions for the 8vs a long time ago. )

[gruffalo]

the horizontal movement of the arm/forearm is not a trick. it is necessary. my reason for that is because it relieves tension, hence not preventing blood flow around the arm. So your arm and hands remain relaxed, allowing the facilitation for the correct technique without getting tired.

if that makes any sense.

Gruff

[kolmogorov]

the horizontal movement of the arm/forearm is not a trick. (...)

The motion you describe is not a trick.  It is one of the required movements that make the tremolos easy because the interval is not small enough that allows primarily the rotation of the forearm (unless you have unusually large hands) (...)

First of all, thanks very much.

Then, ok, it is not a trick. I wrote "hope my english is ok". But being that necessary , why it is the first time I read something about this horizontal mvt when talking about tremolos? This shows that not everything is in internet...

I use horizontal mvt a lot for arpeggios and scales , overall. Also in the same mvt of Pathetique, at the broken chords transition passages.

Thanks again. I was not sure if this mvt was normal or it was a fantasy. Often we do not know what are we doing exactly when playing some passages.

Javier

[faulty_damper]

But being that necessary , why it is the first time I read something about this horizontal mvt when talking about tremolos? This shows that not everything is in internet...

Many times when describing things that are difficult to describe, it usually gets described in very general terms or very obvious ways.  Specifics are difficult as one may not even be aware that other motions are involved.

Now try to see if side to side motions are necessary for 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, and 10ths!

[gruffalo]

I discovered the horizontal movement simply by experimentation. i just noticed that that was helping relax the arm a lot. i then confirmed it with my teacher.

Gruff

[supertonic]

I want to share a little trick I've found recently for using with the left hand tremolos of beethoven's Pathetique Sonata.

Thanks very much for the sharing because I've never thought of it too. Whether it is a "trick" or not doesn't really matter, it's really helpful to people like me anyway.

[ramseytheii]

I am surprised this thread got so many postiive responses, because it sounds all wrong to me!  But perhaps I just dont understand what you are talking about.  If you are moving your whole arm back and forth to play two notes which you can reach without moving your hand, you are surely wasting energy.  Also, it is my view that in tremolos, even in articulate, measured ones, (where the "shaking" defintion comes less into play), the fingers should in fact be on the keys at all times.  Perhaps you can explain this socalled horizontal movement in other terms.  When I play a tremolo for instance from C to C, I notice my elbow is free, and there is a rotation movement which comes from the shoulder, but I cannot for the life of me imagine how you can effectively do this by moving all over the keyboard.

Walter Ramsey

[kolmogorov]

am surprised this thread got so many postiive responses, because it sounds all wrong to me!  But perhaps I just dont understand what you are talking about.  If you are moving your whole arm back and forth to play two notes which you can reach without moving your hand, you are surely wasting energy.  Also, it is my view that in tremolos, even in articulate, measured ones, (where the "shaking" defintion comes less into play), the fingers should in fact be on the keys at all times.  Perhaps you can explain this socalled horizontal movement in other terms.  When I play a tremolo for instance from C to C, I notice my elbow is free, and there is a rotation movement which comes from the shoulder, but I cannot for the life of me imagine how you can effectively do this by moving all over the keyboard.

What you are saying is completely true . But I have described a basic motion that can help. You do not need to "move" horizontally all your arm, forearm or hand , but to understand the horizontal motion, and things become sometimes much easier . If you keep the fingers completely glued at the notes you can get tension. So you must "move" or better "become free" of the notes at the extremes, shaking sometimes your hand.

However, I agree with you in the sense the main mvt must be rotation. My main idea was to understadn how to get relaxed when you have already done a lot of tremolos and your hand is getting tense and tired.

Also, the place where I had the problem was only in the main theme, when left hand is going from C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,F#,G,C. There you must make horizontal mvts anyway, since you have to go up and down to black and white keys . So the fingers can not be "in the keys all times". The idea was also make imperceptible horizontal mvts between, say, the bass Ab and the one octave above Ab. These motions are just to release the pinky or thumb tensions.

But as I said, even now I am not sure of what I am doing .

Javier

[faulty_damper]

Add to what kolmogorov said,

When you spread your hand out to reach an octave, you create tension.  This tension is what causes the loss of control and inability to perform the tremolo.  However, when you do not spread your hand to such a great extent, it is less tense but it also relaxes the hand so that it cannot reach an octave, maybe only a 6th or 7th depending on hand size.  This reduced interval is why the horizontal movement is necessary, to allow the playing of octave tremolos with ease and efficiency.

Of course, this horizontal movement is entire un-necessary if you have extremely large hands when octaves lie under a relaxed hand.

[gonzalo]

Bernhard once suggested a different approach, and also he explained why tension arises:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

Take care,
Gonzalo

[lostinidlewonder]

Never underestimate the balancing effect of the thumb, the thumb balancing against the other 4 fingers, notice the 2nd finger is quite still, we pivot from there. I never think of the pinky during octaves ever, no matter what situation.