I'm going to be the world's lousiest pianist!

[leucippus]

I didn't start out with this goal but it seems to be forcing itself upon me.

What would YOU do if you had the following experience,…

You learn several easy pieces, and practice them until you can play them completely from memory.  Then you move on to learn some more difficult pieces, but you continue to practice the easy pieces DAILY for a FULL YEAR!

At the end of the year you realize that you still cannot play the easy pieces at a decent performance level.  Even after a year of playing them you still can't get through them without making a mistake somewhere randomly!  I mean it's not like you can even pin it down to a place to work on.  You just can't seem to play the whole piece without making some stupid mistake or tripping up somewhere. 

Or if you don't make a technical mistake you just can't seem to flow the music the way you want it.  In other words, after a full year of playing these simple pieces daily you STILL don't have command over them.

Do you just accept that you're a klutz and that you're not cut out to play the instrument?  Do you just give up?  Or do you continue on so that you can become the pianist that everyone talks about when they say, "God did that guy screw that piece up!"

I'm on my way to becoming the world's lousiest pianist and for some reason I just can't bring myself to quit.  Is this like some kind of karma fate or something?  Someone has to be the lousiest pianist in the world and I got chosen for the job?

Or do you think there's a possibility that things could still turn around?  Should I have faith and believe in the seemingly impossible?  Maybe some day for no apparent reason, all of a sudden, things will change and I'll actually be able to play.

Whadda think?  Should I continue to practice, or should I call the trash company to come and haul my piano away?

[netzow]

Don't call the trash company to take your Piano away. You practiced untill you could play the pieces from memory, were you making stupid mistakes at this point? You practiced the pieces daily for a year how much did you practice them, Once a day, twice, five, 10? If you made a mistake did you work the measure(s) where you made the mistake, or did you just play the whole piece again. Also Is your concentration lapsing, when I make random mistakes It's usually because I lose my focus. Just because you make "stupid" mistakes does not mean that you are the on your way to being the world's lousiest pianist. Keep working  Just a few I few idea's hope this helps.

[mipiacescarlatti]

No no don't give up. Even after two years I still sometimes make mistakes with easy pieces I learnt a year ago - but then sometimes I don't, and I play them, and surprise myself - they sound more the way I want them to.

Something that has helped me is taking on a challenge of a piece I love, but thought was seriously above my technical level. I started working through it just a phrase a week, although it's going faster now.

A side effect has been that my old pieces seem that much easier now, and I make fewer mistakes, and learn similar level pieces much faster.

[leucippus]

Also Is your concentration lapsing,...

Well, actually I do have mental problems.   In fact, my mental problems have caused me to quit working.  I used to be a teacher (math and physics).   I guess in a sense I've just never really accepted the fact that I'm losing my ability to concentrate.   I don't want it to be true.  

I do have good days where I have played the pieces through perfect with much command.  I think what's really bugging me is that I can't seem to get a solid handle on them with confidence to play them just anytime I want.  Even though I have good days, I'll revert back to where I feel like I'm still trying to learn the piece.  It's just frustrating.  

Fortunately I'm not planning on becoming a performer.  But I'd still like to be able to perform for friends once in a while with some confidence.  I guess this is just a personal disability that I'll have to deal with.   It is frustrating though to practice so much and still not feel like I have a solid handle on anything.  

I am starting to think that maybe I should pick a different hobby.  I think my ability to concentrate is going to continue to deteriorate which seems counterproductive to practicing all the time.  But then I also read that when a person is starting to lose the ability to concentrate taking up hobbies that force you to concentrate is a good thing.  So I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.  Practicing to get better one the one hand, and having a deteriorating mind on the other.

I probably shouldn't have started this thread.  Just another sign of my mental deterioration I guess.   I have good days and bad days and today's been one of the bad days.

[pianistimo]

the fact that you recognize your weak points means that you can work with them and accept that you will have good days and bad days.  not everything is bad in a bad day though!  you worked your mind and fingers despite having a bad day.  it is more likely you will have a good day tommorrow because you had a bad day today.

and, the fact you still want to play for friends is a good sign that you are sociable, too.  usually all friends want is to hear 'a little something' and get on with golf or bridge or whatever you all do.  unless you have an unusal amount of musical friends.  in which case, practice more.

don't worry about the year thing.  it ALWAYS takes me a year to learn stuff - and if a couple weeks go by and i don't practice everything - it goes a lot faster than it came.  i'm not one of those people, either, with a memory to recall what i practiced 5 years ago.  i have to rework things.  it takes less time.  but, still - reworking.  about the only thing that comes pretty easy to me is mozart/beethoven.  i use the easier sonatas for sightreading practice.

take what you learned a few years ago and continue to 'warm up' on it.  whatever you enjoy - do!  once warmed up - then try recording the piece entirely through (without stopping to correct mistakes) at a slow tempo.  play with this recording from memory.  then, record again at a little faster tempo.  etc.  somehow - playing along with a recording HELPS me hear things a lot better.

[persona]

It's not my intention to give you a fake consolation... but from what you say I belive you're learning without a teacher (correct me if I'm wrong). These random mistakes you mention are, as far as I know, due to technical errors regarding hand, arm and wrist position, muscle tension, back posture and so on and on... there are like a thousand things you could be doing wrong, and it doesn't mean you were born an Anti-Gould, so to speak. It just means you're a guy (I think) doing his best but not knowing everythin there is to it. If you have the means, I'd tell you to get a teacher an let him / her be the judge.

Now, if you do have a teacher, and after a year or so you see no progress at all, and this becomes frustrating... I honestly don't see the point in going on. Unless you have faith, of course.

[violinist]

Leucippus,

You gotta keep playing.  I'm sure the challenges of playing and the challenges of constant self improvement will help you keep your mental abilities as sharp as they can be.

Keep after it!

[arbisley]

Once I've learned pieces and memorised them and I'm fairly satisfied I switch to something else. A few months or anytime later I take them out again, and they always go much better than when i learnt them. You should maybe try NOT practicing those pieces anymore, and concentrate on getting over the more difficult ones first. Learn a piece "one grade up" and then come back to the other one after a few wekks or something. Pieces always take a while to mature in the brain before you can play them as you feel them to be right.

I simply think you might have overpracticed and are not getting anywhere because of it. Sometimes in those situations, I take a piece at extremely slow tempo, and then gradually build up, then my fingers stop doing reflexes they'd acquired by simply playing them. I suppose you've used Chang's book, and he says that before a performance you shouldn't just play a piece through to see wether it's allright. It's in way as if you've just been playing it through and are not getting anywhere. In my opinion, continue practicing in sections or don't practice!

I speak from experience, as this is what I did for my own "practice" for the greatest part of my piano routine up till now (8 years),  and I hope I have the determintation NOT to just continue doing that, but actually working on pieces more, and playing better in consquence.

i hope this offers some practical advice, and if I'm correct in saying that you've been learning for a year only, there is plenty of time ahead, and you must be doing pretty well to memorise pieces and learn them completely at such an early stage.

Good luck!

P.S: Don't chuck the piano, give it to someone else!

[leucippus]

Thank you all for your words of support.  I guess I'll give it at least until spring to see how much I improve over the winter.  Then I'll be in a better position to decide.  I've actually just started learning several more difficult pieces (levels 5 - 6)  and I should have them learned by spring.   Then I will have a larger repertoire to be disgusted with.

P.S: Don't chuck the piano, give it to someone else!

I already saved this piano from the dump once.  I've cleaned it up and tuned it myself using a Korg tuning meter.  It's not too bad.  All the keys seem to be fairly consitently regulated.  But it does have some buzzing sounds on some notes etc.  Not to worry, if I "trash it" I'll give it to someone.  I'm a recycling fanatic.

I actually have 5 of these old wooden beasts.  Unfortuantely I can't play any of them well. 

[leahcim]

Thank you all for your words of support.  I guess I'll give it at least until spring to see how much I improve over the winter.  Then I'll be in a better position to decide.  I've actually just started learning several more difficult pieces (levels 5 - 6)  and I should have them learned by spring.   Then I will have a larger repertoire to be disgusted with.

Well you're not alone. I've been playing for a while, and the fundamental problem is that it never feels right. Whether that's playing something simple like CDEFG or something more complex. My right hand hurts after playing for a while too [which if nothing else tells me that I'm not doing something right]

As for pieces, it rarely seems worth learning the whole thing when the first few bars aren't correct, so I do a few bars of this, the intro to that, the first movement of something else and so on and like you, I've tended to stick with the same piece [or part of] long after memorising it to try and improve the performance of it.

Generally I find that I'd play, say, Minuet in G or a Clementi sonata as badly as, say, Beethoven's 49/2 or a Chopin Waltz. The latter takes longer to work through and perhaps I hit a bar I can't play, but the end result is basically the same in terms of how bad [or good] it sounds. Except perhaps bright sparks would say on hearing the Chopin to play something easier. But that sounds equally bad and doesn't make me any better at playing ...and TBH the Chopin is music I prefer.

So in that sense, I think you'll benefit a bit from playing some of those more difficult pieces, until you can find some way of learning what's missing from your playing, just to get some sense of progress and to learn something, even if it still lacks whatever is lacking from the easier pieces too.

I've tried lots of things - playing slowly, playing quickly, practising this way and that way, scales, moving the bench up / down, forwards and backwards. Mirroring my hands, playing just the right hand, or just the left. Recording the playing. Listening / watching others play the same piece. Concentrating intensely on the movements [from Bernhard's earlier posts] Forgetting the movements completely and just listening to the sound [from Bernhards later posts] - although the latter is difficult "live" mistakes and uneven playing stick out more if you record it [perhaps that's my biggest problem?] playing with a metronome or without and so on and so on.

Bernhard claims anyone can be a competent pianist. At the moment I'd beg to differ, and indeed youtube agrees with my experience afaict

I guess my conclusion is it's either of :-

(i) I'm never going to play well. Some people do, some people don't. or :-

(ii) Needing a good teacher - but IME they don't exist locally to me. I've tried some local teachers and they've generally been very poor. To be fair, they are good at pointing out what is wrong with the piece in obvious-to-me-already terms, I know the piece sounds crap and why in terms of tempo, evenness etc. They would probably be good at telling me stuff I knew before I started [Where middle C is, reading music, what a quaver is etc] but they are not good at all when it comes to offering anything practical or pragmatic to correct what's wrong

They might say "practise" of course which is true, but it's not that I don't practise. I'd accept a teacher who could actually say what was wrong with the way I practised / played and what is wrong rather than just the sound. I can post mp3s here and be told that much. They were generally ignorant about how to correct my playing so my arm doesn't hurt too.

(iii) Possibly being too harsh on myself, along with paying too much attention to teachers bragging about how quick their methods are with no evidence offered to back their claims. There are people who post the audition room who seem happy enough with their progress whereas I wouldn't be. Plenty of good pianists clearly took a lot longer / started a lot younger etc. So perhaps it just takes longer and a lot of those earlier pieces are supposed to sound a bit rough around the edges?

So I don't know, I guess I'm just carrying on because I'd hope (ii) is right, and a few fundamentals about playing notes on the keyboard comfortably would get me over the hill and because, even though I find the lack of progress frustrating and even depressing at time, I find the experience of playing, even badly, relaxing some of the time.

Mebbe one day I'll find it myself.

But one thing I will say is don't be persuaded to get a teacher unless that teacher is good, and that teacher has a bunch of adult students they've taught to a competent standard. i.e Only commit when you find a good teacher, don't think a teacher is better than nothing.

My experience says that's not true, I've taught myself pieces to the same standard, if not better than a bad teacher has easier pieces - anecdotal but I've done that experiement.

[leucippus]

But one thing I will say is don't be persuaded to get a teacher unless that teacher is good, and that teacher has a bunch of adult students they've taught to a competent standard. i.e Only commit when you find a good teacher, don't think a teacher is better than nothing.

My experience says that's not true, I've taught myself pieces to the same standard, if not better than a bad teacher has easier pieces - anecdotal but I've done that experiment.

Well, I tend to agree with you here.  Especially about a teacher not necessarily being so hot unless they are really good.  And. like you, good teachers are rare in my little niche of the world.  In fact, I actually did go to a highly recommended piano teacher last spring.  She gave me a free "evaluation lesson" and told me to bring in everything I was working on.  Well that was easy because I have it all in a 3-ring binder quite well organized. 

Anyway, I went to see her and played I what I've been working on which at that time was just some Hanon (don't tell Bernhard), some Köhler etudes, and some Burgmüller pieces.  Plus I had one little piece that I wrote myself.  She thought I was doing very well considering how long I had been playing at the time.  She said that my form was good (I had actually read Chang's book previously and I think I had pretty good posture, etc.), and she basically told me that I probably wouldn't progress any faster with her than without her because it's really all up to me to do the practicing.  She said that I seemed to have a good plan, but I could use more concentration on the sight-reading skills.  At that time I had a Thompson Method book which I was also starting in on and she said that I was doing well with that too.

So in short, even the best teacher in this area suggested that I'm doing just fine on my own.

I might mention that I'm 57 years old too though.  That may have played a part in her decision. She may be thinking that I'm not going to become a really great pianist anyway so anything I do is just fine.

In any case, I was feeling a bit depressed when I started this thread.  I'm feeling a bit better now, plus some things that I was having trouble with earlier seem to be getting better already.  Could be that I'm just experiencing some good days now.  I've been learning some slower pieces, like Debussy's "Girl with the Flaxen Hair" and I'm actually making some really great progress with it, I think.  I'm only about 10 measures into it but I've been taking my time to learn those measures fairly fluently before moving on.  I'm happy to say that they are coming along quite well.  Maybe I just need to be more careful in my selection of pieces. 

I'm willing to accept that I may have limitations overall.  So if I can learn some pieces really well that will be good enough for me.  So far this Debussy prelude seems to be achievable, but then again, I still have a page and a half yet to go! 

Even if I have to "cheat" on parts of it that's ok with me.  If anyone objects I'll just say, "What? You don't like my rendition?" 

I never did believe in trying to precisely reproduce music anyway.  To me it's all about emotion and art.  As long as I can play it with emotion that's good enough for me. 

[pianowelsh]

I believe it may have been Scriabin who had a bad hand when giving a concert at the Moscow conservatory. He had commited to playing the Liszt bmin but there was no way he was going to be able to do it because of the state of his hands at the time.. he still gave the concert - it just turned out to be a highlights of liszt b minor instead.. it was still relatively unknow so he almost got away with it, except for a few students who were following the scores.. but i think they were nice and didnt say anything to anyone about it untill long after the event. You have to admire his spirit though and to carry that off in the small hall of the moscow conservatory - that takes some performance ability.

[leahcim]

Anyway, I went to see her and played I what I've been working on which at that time was just some Hanon (don't tell Bernhard), some Köhler etudes, and some Burgmüller pieces.  Plus I had one little piece that I wrote myself.  She thought I was doing very well considering how long I had been playing at the time.  She said that my form was good (I had actually read Chang's book previously and I think I had pretty good posture, etc.), and she basically told me that I probably wouldn't progress any faster with her than without her because it's really all up to me to do the practicing.

Really? I'm stunned, because I don't even have the basics, and I can sit and watch, for one example, a video of Sergio Tiempo doing a study on Chopin, 3rds in one hand, revolutionary in the other, or the videos on youtube of yundi li, horowitz, Hofmann and so on, and I wouldn't have a clue where to begin to play what they are playing....if I were struggling to do what they do I'd be happy, but I'm struggling wayyyy before that. I can't even decide whether to play one third by moving my fingers / wrist / elbow / shoulder / whole body / none of the above / all of the above / it depends nor 1/2 the time whichever  I do get both note to sound at the same time / same velocity or different [depending on what I want] - let alone how to play them, with different dynamics flying up and down the keyboard, in time, like that. Single notes are bad enough [and largely either not in time or not even with false dynamics and so on] thirds just compound the fact that the technique isn't known to begin to "practise" it.

So if this teacher thinks that you'll be playing that sort of stuff without her help? Then it doesn't sound like you have much to be depressed about....but I rather think that she's no more a piano teacher than I am

[loops]

hey leucippus, glad you're feeling a bit better. I think adults tend to have very high standards, and you have to cope with taking the same amount of time a child takes to learn, all the while hearing how far your own playing sounds from professional playing...even for very easy pieces you can hear the difference between a mature touch and an amateur one.

Definitely do not give up on concentration, all that maths and physics training is also helping you (I bet you're better off than people with same mental problems and no maths training). Also: sounds to me you gave that teacher lots of reasons *not* to take you on. Give finding a teacher another go...
As for wrong notes and fumbles, see the thread "The perfect wrong note".

All best

[phdezra]

I think adults tend to have very high standards, and you have to cope with taking the same amount of time a child takes to learn

Forgot where I read this, but one of the reasons why adults are always "slower than children" or "can't learn it as well because of established habits" is due to the approach. In other words, children are *always* on the beginning part of something in life. When they learn to ride a bike, they have never rode one before. When they learn to rake leaves, same thing. Etc.  And so too with piano/any music. With adults however, we're not used to being "new" at most things. And so there seems to be a tendency to fight it and to aim high immediately. As a child though, you have more internal latitude, since they aren't as hard on themselves as we are.

The trick is to use your adult knowledge and experiences to your advantage and learn to let go of adult frustrations and control (which is just an illusion anyway, as pointed out in many places); approach it like a child might.

Does that make any sense? 

[persona]

Absolutely, phdezra.