Mozart trills

[nicolaievich]

Hello you all, I am studying a Mozart sonata for violin and piano, in E minor K.304, along with a violinist, and we have some doubts when playing the trills, specially those in the Minuetto.
I have listened a version of Barenboim and Perlman, but I can not figure out how they play the trills. There is a general rule for this?
What any of you recommend about this? 
Thanks in advance.

Nicolas.

[faulty_damper]

Can you clarify what you mean?

Both the piano and violin play trills together.  So both should have the same articulation.
Even when it's not simultaneous, the articulation should remain the same.

Or do you mean starting on an auxilary note or on the principle note?  I think starting the trill on the auxilary note sounds more musically pleasing in this music.

Or do you mean rhythmically?  Then the trills should be close to strict time because of the forward momentum of the music, except at cadence points where it should clearly retard a bit or pull back on the execution of the trill.

[nicolaievich]

Yes, I know both instruments play trills together.

The right question is "how to fit the trills rythmically?"
I always tend to start in the auxiliary notes.

Thanks again.
Nicolas

[pianistimo]

some people do them in thirds and others in groups of four or six.  some people say they trill faster (even when starting on auxillary notes) if they think about the connection between the primary note and it's upper note as going together instead of the auxillary note downward. 

read some of quantz - (flute player and theorist) and you will see a huge amount of information about trilling.  i will look in my notes and see if i can find some things for you.  sometimes you can get info when you research 'cadenzas' - because there are those huge, long trills there, too.

i personally like the trills of murray perahia.  they are clean and clear and, well, just nice.  cassedesus was supposed to play really well, too.  mozart is difficult to say that his trills will always start with auxillary notes.  if the previous note is the same note - then obviously the auxillary note is preferred (or, as the article below states, the lower auxillary note - which is underutilized today).  but, say you have an upper note (1 step - diatonic) to a trilled note that is a step lower - you probably would want a sort of three note trill = upper note  to three/five note trill of lower/upper/lower. 

there's a lot of rules.  i prefer the simpler trills over the complicated ones - unless you are towards a cadenza or need some pizzazz.  the reason i say this is that a trill is simply an ornamentation.  it can be a lot of ornament or a little.  it really doesn't matter.  in fact, with ornamentation - you could basically take it or leave it.  it's just adding to the importance of a note.  if it makes the melody more aesthetically pleasing - it's good.  but remember that in classical music they were getting away from the ornate idea (baroque stuff) and trying to make things sound simpler and fresher.  going away from the ornate castles and furniture, to the lighter country estates and finally doing away with aristocracy altogether.  whatever reminded them of this very ornate past - was anathama to most.

[pianistimo]

just found this site - and thought you might like to see it:

www.oldflutes.com/articles/classicaltrill/index.htm

[nicolaievich]

Thanks a lot pianistimo! That article is very interesting.
I will try to get some Quantz stuff.

See you around...
Nicolas.