Hand deviation

[casenote]

Hi all.  I've been reading the posts on this forum from Bernhard and others and attempting to follow them in my practicing for about 2 months or so now, and I appear to have made some significant improvement as a result.  However, I'm concerned that my right hand may have a minor ulnar deviation problem.  While my right hand is clearly the stronger hand, when I keep my joints aligned (wrist not raised or dropped and not jerked to the side and fingers bent only at the knuckle joint), put my thumb on C (one octave up from middle C), 5 on G, in a basic 5 finger position, I can't get my hand to comfortably rest above the keyboard with the fingers roughly parallel to the keys the way that my left hand does, even though my left hand is clearly the weaker hand.  I'm right handed, by the way.

Another way to describe it is that its sort of like my right forearm just won't rotate far enough when its at a comparable angle to the left forearm which appears to have no problem.  I've tried to see if the left apparatus could teach the right, but that hasn't been too much help as of yet.

So as a consequence of this, to maintain wrist joint alignment I either have to:
angle my right arm inward, or play with the fingertips striking the keys sort of on their right undersides as opposed to the center of the fingertip.   And I can elaborate on what I'm doing if that would helpful in understanding the situation.

One theory I have as to the cause is that I've spent countless hours using a computer mouse with my right hand but not my left.  I'm now 23 and have been using computer's regularly since I was very small.

Anyway, these are some questions that come to my mind right now, though I can use all the help I can get:
1. Is there anything I can do to test whether I actually have a hand deviation problem?
2. If I do have a hand deviation problem, are there any exercises or anything else that I can do to get rid of it or improve it, and how much help will they be?
3. If I can't eliminate the problem, how much is this going to limit my progress?

By the way, I'm currently working on my own without a teacher.  I definitely want one, but I'm having a hard time finding someone who understands all this stuff.   I met with a teacher in my area a few weeks ago who teaches at a nearby University and is quite accomplished.  However, she plays with some serious joint misalignment, assigns Hanon, and she told me she wanted to get me to start lifting my fingers high, so consequently, I am still working without a teacher.  Given the progres I've made in 2 months from following Bernhard's suggestions, and the fact that it all seems to make so much anatomical sense, I really don't think I can ever employ techniques that go against my body's natural disposition.  So while I fully agree that this is better explained hands on, I would greatly appreciate any feedback.

[kamike]

Do you mean to say that you can stretch from middle c to the g above the octave above middle c?   If so, that is one hell of a reach.  I'd say that anyone who can reach that far has a hand "deviation." 

Don't worry about it. 

Yea, sure, worry a little about posture, hand position, etc. etc, but think more about the music and what you want/think it should sound like.

I can barely span a 10th.  I also have dupuytren's disease that causes the little finger on both hands (worse on my left) to pull inward toward the palm - a real PITA - but I still play.  Some chords are hell.  I am going this week to have a procedure to loosen the contractures.

[casenote]

Do you mean to say that you can stretch from middle c to the g above the octave above middle c?   If so, that is one hell of a reach.  I'd say that anyone who can reach that far has a hand "deviation." 

Haha, no I meant a 5 finger position - i.e. thumb on C, 2 on D, 3 on E, etc.  Sorry if that was unclear.  That would be pretty cool if I could do that though.  However I have relatively small hands and I can just reach a 9th, and at this point only if I jerk my wrist sideways.

[kamike]

I'd suggest having a  teacher or another experienced pianist watch you play and give you some tips on hand and finger position.

[casenote]

I'd suggest having a  teacher or another experienced pianist watch you play and give you some tips on hand and finger position.

This is precisely my problem.  I know of several experienced pianists/teachers that can give me lessons, but none of them seem to have their technique guided by the principle of joint alignment.  I'm a bit unsure about what to do at this point.  I've been playing on my own for about 2 years now, and everyone tells me to just get a teacher, and I completely agree with them.  But this is my dilemna: on the one hand, I will most certainly make lots of apparent improvements if I take lessons from a "good" teacher and do what they say.  I see videos of very succesful pianists making extensive use of the movements that lead to misalignment of the joints in their playing (wrists raised, wrists dropped, wrists jerked sideways, fingers curled, and so on.)  I'd work pretty hard to be able to produce sound like that.

However, Bernhard has said something to the effect of: the only way to really learn to play with anatomically correct movements is to work with someone who understands and can do it him/herself.  And I think he also said something about complete body re-education.  I really want that re-education.  So how do I find a teacher who I can be reasonably confident will keep me on the right road?  How rare are such teachers?  I live in the US, and I can provide more specific details if anyone thinks they know of somebody.  And if I can't find such a teacher, am I better off just reading pianoforum, and watching the Fink and Taubman videos?

[richy321]

Casenote,

I noticed that when you refer to the lateral turning at the wrist, you say "jerked to the side".   Since it is normally not necessary to "jerk"  the hand to the side simply to align, say, the 5th finger or thumb with the arm (it should be an easy, smooth motion) I think perhaps you have some problem with the lateral range of motion at the wrist.

I suggest two things:  (1) compare the range and ease of lateral wrist movement of the right hand versus the supposedly normal left hand.  Also, compare the range of rotation.
(2) If there is indeed a difference you need, to see an orthopedist and find out what is causing it. 

Good luck.

[casenote]

Casenote,

I noticed that when you refer to the lateral turning at the wrist, you say "jerked to the side".   Since it is normally not necessary to "jerk"  the hand to the side simply to align, say, the 5th finger or thumb with the arm (it should be an easy, smooth motion) I think perhaps you have some problem with the lateral range of motion at the wrist.

I suggest two things:  (1) compare the range and ease of lateral wrist movement of the right hand versus the supposedly normal left hand.  Also, compare the range of rotation.
(2) If there is indeed a difference you need, to see an orthopedist and find out what is causing it. 

Good luck.

That's possible, though my right wrist seems to be able to move laterally about the same as the left.  My right hand itself is not misaligned.  If I hold my right arm up in the air, or to the side, or a variety of positions, everything seems lined up.  It's just when I try to put a flat palm on the keyboard or table surface, with my forearm at a comparable angle to my left forearm such that my palm would be centered on the keys near the middle of the keyboard, the wrist makes somewhat of a right turn (not sure if that's abduction or adduction).  So when I do this, it causes a misalignment.  If I play with my right hand at an angle to the keys, I can maintain alignment.  The other alternative is to play straight on, but with my fingertips at an angle to the keys.  Not sure which is preferable, maybe it depends on the passage.  It almost feels like there's some tricep area muscle or coordination in my left arm but not in my right, and the result is that my right forearm just can't rotate quite as far as the left. 

[lostinidlewonder]

First of all the CDEFG position is the MOST uncomfortable position you can posibly find at the piano. The natural hand posture for the piano in the Right hand is 12345 on EGbAbBbB and Left hand 54321 on FGbAbBbC. This is what Chopin considered the natural hand posture for the piano. This to me would be the best starting point to determine the damange in your hand if there is any. Unfortunately its hard to give advice in this situation without sitting next to you at the piano.

[casenote]

First of all the CDEFG position is the MOST uncomfortable position you can posibly find at the piano. The natural hand posture for the piano in the Right hand is 12345 on EGbAbBbB and Left hand 54321 on FGbAbBbC. This is what Chopin considered the natural hand posture for the piano. This to me would be the best starting point to determine the damange in your hand if there is any. Unfortunately its hard to give advice in this situation without sitting next to you at the piano.

I think the damage to my hand is pretty minimal, based upon this position.  It definitely is comfortable.  This brings up another question.  I've been working on the parallel set exercises in the Chang book, and I believe he says to do them on CDEFG.  Also, this seems to be the best position for strengthening the lumbricales.  Even though I believe Chang also says in the book that there is no evidence that the lumbricales are important in piano playing, it seems that one of the sources of improvement in exercise #1 (where you practice playing one note), is through developing the lumbricales.  And it seems like the CDEFG position is the best for this, because this position seems to be the best for isolating the movement that uses those muscles.  But maybe other positions are just as good.  I don't really know, but I am interested to know what others think.  I could use some more information on ways to exercise the lumbricales. 

Also, while I know it is recommended to only do exercises in the context of pieces, it seems that I need to develop the technique to play a single note with a correct motion as a prerequisite to developing any other correct technique.  Sure, I can learn all sorts of easy pieces, but I won't be ingraining any "correct" motions.  Am I on the right track with this?  Is there anything else I can do in the meantime?  And how long should this take?   

[lostinidlewonder]

I think the damage to my hand is pretty minimal, based upon this position.  It definitely is comfortable.  This brings up another question.  I've been working on the parallel set exercises in the Chang book, and I believe he says to do them on CDEFG.  Also, this seems to be the best position for strengthening the lumbricales.  Even though I believe Chang also says in the book that there is no evidence that the lumbricales are important in piano playing, it seems that one of the sources of improvement in exercise #1 (where you practice playing one note), is through developing the lumbricales.  And it seems like the CDEFG position is the best for this, because this position seems to be the best for isolating the movement that uses those muscles.  But maybe other positions are just as good.  I don't really know, but I am interested to know what others think.  I could use some more information on ways to exercise the lumbricales. 

Also, while I know it is recommended to only do exercises in the context of pieces, it seems that I need to develop the technique to play a single note with a correct motion as a prerequisite to developing any other correct technique.  Sure, I can learn all sorts of easy pieces, but I won't be ingraining any "correct" motions.  Am I on the right track with this?  Is there anything else I can do in the meantime?  And how long should this take?   

I cannot understand why CDEFG could ever teach you anything. One hand position will not teach you much, and trying to develop technique to play A SINGLE NOTE with correct motion is looking at the leaves and forgetting about the forest. Try not to get overly obsessed about what the hand is doing, afterall do you think so much when eating with a knife and fork? The way muscular memory works with piano is very much the same.

[leahcim]

do you think so much when eating with a knife and fork?

Yes, of course you do - usually fior most of us when we're kids and you're distributing the meal around the room. Watching adults dropping food all over the place when they attempt to use chopsticks for the first time for example.

OTOH, using a knife and fork is nothing like playing the piano.

Playing piano requires learning the movements for each piece of rep - it's all movements - movements that you change, to change the sound you hear so it becomes the sound you imagine. Movements that you need to discover for each piece - and that at some point you need to learn how to discover them. Witness the number of people here who post that some good teacher changed their technique, pointed out bad habits etc. If that's your first teacher and you were young, you're winning and you probably think you didn't think about it. If it's not, then you'll be thinking about your movements - until you're confident you can do them.

Of course, what you think about won't be head scratching stuff like the latin words for your muscles or daft phrases that a piano teacher who writes a book might invent "move your spider fingers whilst pronating and supinating your forearm's dangly bits", it'll be the feelings you get [not the tears in your eyes because the piece reminds you of your favourite Koala bear, I'm talking about senses] when you do the correct movements that relate to the effect you're trying to achieve.

The older you are, and the longer you've been playing with incorrect movements, the harder you'll have to think and concentrate because what you've learnt subconsciously is wrong. Those of us who discard the knife and casually use the fork the wrong way 'round in the "wrong" hand can still eat our dinner though.

Whereas using a knife and fork doesn't vary much at all for each meal you eat and is, by comparison, trivial to learn. Did liszt do hours a day practise to eat?

That's why you can laugh at someone who wants to play piano after 30 minutes practise a day, whereas you can suggest we don't even need to think about using a knife and fork as though thinking about movements is absurd. The actual absurdity is that you seriously compared the 2 activities and seem to have forgotten there was a time when you couldn't walk, let alone use a knife and fork.

OTOH, I wouldn't bother reading Chang  - he doesn't know nor describe in any useful way what the correct movements are for his practise method. You need a teacher [or another source] to show you.

[leahcim]

1. Is there anything I can do to test whether I actually have a hand deviation problem?

It sounds to me like you might just be sitting too close to the piano so your arms have to bend more than they need to. But I stress that's just a guess.

By the way, I'm currently working on my own without a teacher.  I definitely want one, but I'm having a hard time finding someone who understands all this stuff.   I met with a teacher in my area a few weeks ago who teaches at a nearby University and is quite accomplished. 

You need to. Perhaps there is some way to start making a list of good teachers with respect to this subject on this site? Put it in Nils suggestion box.

Although in the states there's Taubman and stuff, the UK seems to lack any place where you can find similar.

If the knife and fork people are to be believed, some of this wouldn't even require a lot of lessons with that person.

Because even with those who do claim to know and who make posts talking about it at great length - a post may appear saying a candle is like a firecracker pop goes the £%$£ing weasel and that'll trigger a different hobby so they'll act as though that was all you needed to know and say that's great too. "Don't worry about movements, buy Zen and the art of oneupmanship "

In other words the internet isn't going to help you here, you'll just be in for a world of confusion and frustration as one week movements matter, the next they don't and the descriptions confuse - from the same poster, let alone from more than one dude posting.

All I can say is, I get pain in my right arm and it's getting worse, and with your average tenner a lesson teacher, the pain got so bad I had to stop having lessons. So caveat emptor, if you just don't get any better that's one thing, but you could be in for a world of pain even if you don't currently have to think when using a knife and fork.

[casenote]

Thank you all for the responses.  The knife and fork analogy is interesting, though I think playing a lot of piano pieces well requires slightly more precision than eating food with a knife and fork. 

I think what I have is essentially a wrist flexibility/range of motion problem.  My right wrist is just not as "flexible" as my left wrist.  When rotating in the direction of the thumb, it just doesn't rotate as far in that direction as my left wrist does.  Maybe this helps clarify.  Also, my left wrist appears to be a bit longer than my right wrist.  I don't have any pain whatsover, but it clearly is just not quite as it should be.  My right wrist should be doing what the left can do, but it just doesn't.  The speed of rotation is faster in my right wrist (perhaps because I'm right handed).  My fundamental issue seems to be with the RANGE OF ROTATION in my right wrist.  Is that something that exercise can improve or is just a matter of not letting it get any worse?

[richy321]

No one here would be qualified to determine the cause of the deficits that you have identified.  If you have health insurance, you should see your primary care physician and describe your concerns and possibly get a referral to an orthopedist.  Short of that, you might just Google on "wrist range of motion" or "carpal tunnel syndrome" and get ideas that way.  I say CTS only because the wrist seems to be involved, even though you say you don't have any pain. 

There is a site where you can sort of screen yourself for CTS by answering a series of questions.  I noticed that short of pain, the symptoms for CTS include numbness and tingling of the hand.  If you don't have any of that, CTS would seem to be ruled out.  Then only a doctor can tell you if you have a functional  abnormality and how it might be overcome. 

[casenote]

I am in the midst of a search for a piano teacher who understands human anatomy and co-ordination.  I have not found one yet, but there has to be someone out there.  In the meantime, this is my latest thought.

How bad is it to play with a raised wrist?  By raised wrist, I mean that instead of being aligned flat with the forearm, the hand droops downward (so that the first set of knuckles are below the wrist.  The position itself feels relaxing because I just let my hand fall.  My arm also feels very relaxed.  In this position, I'm able to rotate back and forth sufficiently that I can play without needing to side twist the wrist at all.  As a consequence, my fingers are more vertical, including my thumb and pinky (they are almost as vertical as the other fingers).  Obviously this is not optimal, but in this position, I'm able to get a good sound, and I'm able to do all the fundamental movements with ease and comfort. 

So I'm just curious if anyone has experience playing this way and if so, how it has worked out for them. 

For me, it may come down to either playing with a raised wrist or having to side twist the wrist.  More generally, if I'm trying to decide between the lesser of 2 evils, is the raised wrist option less bad than the side twisting option?

[leahcim]

How bad is it to play with a raised wrist?  By raised wrist, I mean that instead of being aligned flat with the forearm, the hand droops downward (so that the first set of knuckles are below the wrist.

I think the answer to the question is, if you're doing something that leads to an injury it could be really bad. If you're not then the worse thing is that your playing may suck compared with using your wrists [and the rest of you] to get the sound you want.

However, if something is going to cause an injury, unless you do something really dramatic [i.e slam or hammer your arms around] you should feel that it's not right. The caveat is not to ignore mild discomfort or pain.

Your focus is on the wrong thing, You need to consider movements in terms of how they feel to you, and how the sound created matches what you want to create.

[Since you mentioned using a computer, you might want to consider the movements you make using that too - perhaps you ignore pain during a tense quake 3 deathmatch - I know I have in the past or something similar, or perhaps your shoulders are tense, your seating wrong...once you focus on the way you feel [and again I mean senses not happy / sad etc] to play the piano, you may notice tense shoulders when you sit watching TV or you lean at an odd angle when using the computer because of where the monitor is, stuff like that]

It needs to be focussed in that sense. You can't listen to what noise the piano makes and then think "Oh, that was nice" you need to want a specific sound and aim for it. This is similar to other areas of practise where you need a goal and a purpose to make the practise effective [contrary to some schools of thought that suggest playing exercises when reading a book, so YMMV here, but you have to try and see what works]

So, it's not "nice sound" nor is it random effects that you decide after playing them that they were good. It's real things like dynamics "ppp, pp, p, fff" and so on and things like staccato, legato etc etc in a controlled sense that you wanted to achieve and then do. So you get what you willed to get. If you don't then you correct your movements until you do. Obtaining the right sound will require different movements.

Conclusion : there is no correct movement per se, there is a movement to get what you want to achieve with respect to the sound. Movements that are efficient and are comfortable for you and thus won't lead to injury or fatigue if you use them and will in time allow you to do fancy pants virtuoso pieces and play in a controlled way.

Finding it is an experiment + knowledge and experience. Experience in the sound means listening to lots of music and developing your ear. Experience in movements means "listening" to your sense of touch and how the movements you make feel.

What I think is wrong is somehow trying to concentrate on some specific paragraph of text you've read about rotating this and that. Use that as a guide for an approach, but concentrate on your movements in the sense that you concentrate on your hands and you can feel what they touch when perhaps you normally ignore much of it. How warm they are, your shirt rubbing against your wrist. Concentrate / focus on your playing mechanism in that sense, when you're trying to recreate the correct sound for how it feels. That's what I think it's about.

The teacher is to provide knowledge and experience beyond your own. The more diverse your experiments the more you learn. Think about playing a passage to make it have some emotion "happy / sad / angry" as well as some specific dynamic or effect. The more you interpret the piece or a segment of it the more you'll be in command of the movements you need to make to get those effects and thus recreate those emotions. That means there's no real "correct" movements per se for playing CDEFG, it's about what you want it to sound like. What impression you want to make.

The theory is that eventually the movements become as automatic as using a knife and fork - at that point they might be similar in that respect, but the way there doesn't seem at all similar.

If you play different notes then that's different movements too, so the difficulty and variety of the pieces you tackle will lead to more movements to discover and learn.

You need a teacher though...but I wouldn't worry about your teacher's knowledge of anatomy, they are a shortcut to experimenting and someone to say when you are right amongst teaching you other things.

Why your anatomy is interesting is only as far as science may justify the movements - in much the same way that a knowledge of how the brain works may tell you and / or justify a certain way to practise or learn efficiently. Neither are necessary for a teacher [or even you] to know though, not if they know the methods themselves. e.g You don't need to worry about physics to drive a car, you feel it, even if the underlying methods of get out of my "£$"£ing way driving are grounded in physics.

You need to worry about your teachers ability to demonstrate and correct your playing in terms that give you some pragmatic goal to aim for to improve in piano playing. More important is that you buy into their philosophy for learning the piano - e.g some will say "do lots of exercises" others, as you see, don't...you can try both and see which works, but  if you make your mind up, you need a teacher that agrees [otherwise you'll be ignoring them]

[ramseytheii]

I cannot understand why CDEFG could ever teach you anything. One hand position will not teach you much, and trying to develop technique to play A SINGLE NOTE with correct motion is looking at the leaves and forgetting about the forest. Try not to get overly obsessed about what the hand is doing, afterall do you think so much when eating with a knife and fork? The way muscular memory works with piano is very much the same.

I like this post.  One thing you might consider is that your elbow is tense.  Another thing you might want to look into is the Alexander Technique, where Alexander decried the use of the word "posture," suggesting it be replaced with "acture."  Perhaps a general knowledge of the body, and this kind of body re-education, will serve you better than trying to find a teacher who will tell you exactly what you want to hear.

If you have access to it, you might want to investigate this problem under the influence of LSD, but also with a videocamera.  You may find a new fluidity and flexibility that you didnt think you had before.

But in general, try not to think of "positions," but rather the best way to act.

Walter Ramsy