Performance Issues

[jonslaughter]

I'm starting to write piano music and I'm interested in finding out the capabilities of the "avg" piano player. By "avg" I mean someone that is decent, has studied piano for several years, and can play pieces by Beethoven(not just Fur Elise either) along with say some fugues of Bach.


Some things I'm interested in:

1. Largest playable interval.  I tend to use a lot of 10ths and sometimes even add a 5th or even an octave(which tends not to be playble in the left hand).

2. Dynamics: I tend to write lines that very in dynamics considerably on the same hand. i.e., I want, say, the soprano to be ff while the alto to be ppp.  I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not as it might be complicated? (I say it shouldn't but then again I don't know anything about piano performance)

Also, is it possible to cresc. just the upper voice and not the lower voice in the same hand. This is very similar to the above question but I tend to use the inner voices as filler and I don't want them to be over emphasized and drown out the main melody.

What about emphasizing an inner voice while playing the outer voices very lightly? i.e., the opposite stuff above.

3. Repeated notes: Is it ok to use a tremolo on a note instead of writing it all the way out? (i.e., say 8 8th notes in 4/4 or just one whole note with a 1x tremolo on it). Its much easier to notate with the tremolo but I'm not sure if it would confuse the performer.

4. Does the "avg" performer tend to play a composition very close to how it is written even if by sight reading the very first time or does the performer have to "study" the piece to figure out how to play it? 

For example, When I listen to some performances of, say, pieces by Beethoven, the performer does not play them as written but sometimes chances it completely(such as a fast run might be played pretty slow at times).  It sounds good but I'm not sure if the performer did that because he couldn't play it correctly or if it sounded better slow or what.

5. I'm thinking about trying to find someone to perform my music so I can hear it "live" as I use midi now.   Would I just need to give them the music and then let them figure it out on there own or would I need to sit down with them and tell them what I want?  Since some parts might be overly difficult or might even sound better when played a different way than I have notated I would like feedback but I'm not sure if thats "appropriate" or not.

for example, a lot of times in midi the higher notes crap out and I tend not to use them for that reason cause I don't know if they will sound right on piano. (or things like trills and such too)  If I can find someone to play my pieces then I might end up trying to use some of these things to see if they sound much better.  I would want to say something like "Can you play it this way for me and then that way" so I can compare the difference between midi and the piano(I know the piano is better but how much better(which depends on what your doing)).  I'm not sure if the performer would get annoyed at that or not though ;/

6. Utlimately I would want to perform the music myself but I don't trust my playing as I am self taught and ATM I have no piano.  I want to be able to get the best quality performance I can so I can see how far I can go with my music.  i.e., ultimately I want my music to sound good but I might be leaving out some good stuff just because midi cannot handle and the only way to learn this is to perform the music... but since I cannot do it at this point in time I must get someone else to do it for me.  Unfortunately I do not know if the "avg" performer will jump through hoops for me unless I pay them or pay them a lot(I don't mind a few bucks though).

I also don't want to end up thinking the "avg" peformer is good when he or she is not. Anyone can say they can play piano but I think ultimately very few people can. Its not hard to learn a song but its hard to understand how to play it correctly  as the composer concieved.  So I'm kinda not sure at what level of performance I'm looking for... which ofcourse depends on my music itself too.

Anyways, any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon

[loops]

Different dynamics for different fingers on the same hand is possible. Tenths is impossible for me.
I'm not sure writing something for a mythical "average" performer is a good idea...average
schoolchild grade 5? average adult learner grade 5? average where-you-are diploma level?
average virtuoso? average village church organist? (this last would be extremely variable I would think)

You can write what you want to write, and hope someone with 2 foot hand span comes along. 
But I would think the best bet is to find someone for whom you can write specifically in terms of hand span
and technical level, and then you will know that for at least one human being, your piece
is possible.

I myself am extremely privileged in that a friend of mine wrote me a theme and variations.
For my hand span, my technical level (well, it's a challenge in parts, but I like that and fortunately
my teacher is more than happy to help me). He even asked me what I liked..I said Bach and tango.
So it starts baroque and evolves to tango. Wonderful!!
My friend left alot of the dynamics up to me, because he was interested to see what I'd make of it.
He was keen to hear a human, not his computer play it. But humans have their own ideas...
He can always give to someone else to play.     

[dnephi]

1. Largest playable interval.  I tend to use a lot of 10ths and sometimes even add a 5th or even an octave(which tends not to be playble in the left hand). Make like 9th be your limit except for like one tenth or something.  Not everyone (Even very good pianists!) can easily play tenths.

2. Dynamics: I tend to write lines that very in dynamics considerably on the same hand. i.e., I want, say, the soprano to be ff while the alto to be ppp.  I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not as it might be complicated? (I say it shouldn't but then again I don't know anything about piano performance) Possible.  This is like a choir, and it would be harder, and I think you'd drown out the contralto

Also, is it possible to cresc. just the upper voice and not the lower voice in the same hand. This is very similar to the above question but I tend to use the inner voices as filler and I don't want them to be over emphasized and drown out the main melody. Yes, but think-what does this do to your music?

What about emphasizing an inner voice while playing the outer voices very lightly? i.e., the opposite stuff above. Possible.  But remember

3. Repeated notes: Is it ok to use a tremolo on a note instead of writing it all the way out? (i.e., say 8 8th notes in 4/4 or just one whole note with a 1x tremolo on it). Its much easier to notate with the tremolo but I'm not sure if it would confuse the performer. examine orchestral scores to see this notation, or look at Liszt Chasse-Neige

4. Does the "avg" performer tend to play a composition very close to how it is written even if by sight reading the very first time or does the performer have to "study" the piece to figure out how to play it?  You don't just sightread pieces if you seriously want to perform them

For example, When I listen to some performances of, say, pieces by Beethoven, the performer does not play them as written but sometimes chances it completely(such as a fast run might be played pretty slow at times).  It sounds good but I'm not sure if the performer did that because he couldn't play it correctly or if it sounded better slow or what.

5. I'm thinking about trying to find someone to perform my music so I can hear it "live" as I use midi now.   Would I just need to give them the music and then let them figure it out on there own or would I need to sit down with them and tell them what I want?  Since some parts might be overly difficult or might even sound better when played a different way than I have notated I would like feedback but I'm not sure if thats "appropriate" or not.

for example, a lot of times in midi the higher notes crap out and I tend not to use them for that reason cause I don't know if they will sound right on piano. (or things like trills and such too)  If I can find someone to play my pieces then I might end up trying to use some of these things to see if they sound much better.  I would want to say something like "Can you play it this way for me and then that way" so I can compare the difference between midi and the piano(I know the piano is better but how much better(which depends on what your doing)).  I'm not sure if the performer would get annoyed at that or not though ;/

6. Utlimately I would want to perform the music myself but I don't trust my playing as I am self taught and ATM I have no piano.  I want to be able to get the best quality performance I can so I can see how far I can go with my music.  i.e., ultimately I want my music to sound good but I might be leaving out some good stuff just because midi cannot handle and the only way to learn this is to perform the music... but since I cannot do it at this point in time I must get someone else to do it for me.  Unfortunately I do not know if the "avg" performer will jump through hoops for me unless I pay them or pay them a lot(I don't mind a few bucks though).

I also don't want to end up thinking the "avg" peformer is good when he or she is not. Anyone can say they can play piano but I think ultimately very few people can. Its not hard to learn a song but its hard to understand how to play it correctly  as the composer concieved.  So I'm kinda not sure at what level of performance I'm looking for... which ofcourse depends on my music itself too.

Anyways, any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon


AVG performer if they are professional can handle any of that.  However none of it should be more difficult than the true music dictates.  Unless you just want something showy.  ... 
Look at some early Haydn for models, I believe.

[ed_thomas]

Jon:  A lot of my playing is arrangements written by a friend of mine for choral accompaniment.  He isn't a pianist either, so I do have first-hand experience with what you ask.  If you write 10ths, try not to include a lot of movement around them.  My hands are fairly large and I can reach tenths, but it is a stretch.  So my hand isn't relaxed and can't move quickly to another position.  If the music requires rapid 10ths, see if you've left both hands free to play the interval rather than requiring one hand to do them.

Do the 10ths HAVE to be played together?  If not, it doesn't matter.

I find that parallel 10ths are easier than going rapidly from 10ths to a different interval and back to 10ths.  Worse than other intervals, because the 10th is pulling my hand wider than its most relaxed position.

Most pianists will be faithful to your dynamic directions if they are clear and meaningful.

[henrah]

Why not post a composition here and see what we - as pianists - think of playing it, in terms of difficulty, parts that are incredibly hard/bordering on impossible to play, and other such things we have problems with.

There is a wide range of pianists on this forum, and so in doing that I think you would cover the 'average' pianist by taking it what everyone says, the great's to the not-so-great's. Obviously if there are parts with multiple voices with different volume markings in one hand and the great's can play it but the not-so-great's can't, it's up to you whether to consider it as part of the composition. Remember, you don't have to leave out an inner voice just so the not-so-great's can play it. If someone can play it, and it is vital for the composition, leave it in!

I hope this helps you in your quest, and I'd very much like to try out some of your compositions to help you.
Henrah

[jonslaughter]

ok. I'm still working on finishing my first piece and I feel like I might have to start over because things are going a little astray although I might just finish it up just to get it over with. 

I just don't want to make the piece unplayable at a few spots when the rest of it is fine(about 1/3 or so is just 2 voices at this point and the rest is pretty easy but there are a few spots that might be hard).

I can play 10ths pretty easy and reach an 11th. I was told that there as a pianist that could play a 14th ;/  I had a friend that had small hands and could reach a 10th too but I'm assuming he couldn't use it in performance.(his hands were very small.)


What I'd really like is to get some people to perform it and record it so I could compare against each and with midi and maybe even get some feed back on it. Is this the proper place to do that?

I once asked in a forum for the same thing is a "piece" I did(not a real piece though) and a guy volunteered to perform and record it for me. when I got the recording it was very bad and sounded like he recorded it in a can(very chorus and phasy like). The performance seemed good though but the sound quality was bad. When I told him that he stopped responding to me so I guess he took it personal ;/

Anyways, it would be cool if I could get people to perform and record it. and help me get it to play and sound well if there are any problems.

Thanks,
Jon

[henrah]

I don't mean to boast, but at my house there is a lovely recital hall with a Fazioli 228 and great recording quality. It also has a reverb system which can imitate a huge cathedral, and is very useful in giving different pieces different atmospheres to play in.

I'd love to record your composition and send you the recording of it. It's unfortunate that I can't stretch a 10th without spending a couple of seconds getting the very extremes of my thumb and pinky on the notes. And that only applies to a white-note 10th - I can't for the life of me stretch a black-to-white or white-to-black 10th. I can play 9th's, but only those that are a tone apart when thought of as compounded, e.g. G#-A# or similar.

If you have any compositions that don't have and 10ths in them, I'd be more than happy to attempt to learn them and record them. You'll need quite a bit of patience though, as I sometimes take quite a while to learn something. Also, it might be quite a challenge to me, and therefore would take even longer.

There is no need to pay me for what I might do for you, if you choose to allow me. In fact, irrespective of whether you would like to use me to test out your compositions, I would still like to play them
Henrah

[jonslaughter]

Cool. I'd love to hear it too   I'm about 75% of the way through the piece and I really want to redo most of it but I feel that I just need to get something done. I tend to be a perfectionist and want to make things perfect(thats redundant I guess) and end up not finishing anything ;/  So don't expect much from me ;/  This is my first piece so I'm sure there are a lot of issues to resolve but a large part of it is just getting over the first hurdle.  I tend to want to do a lot of modulatory stuff and wierd rhythms and such and then loose track of the larger picture but I'm trying my best to keep it simple so I don't get bogged down on things that might be out of my grasp.

Right now I'm not really following any song form so the piece might be structured a little strange. I also dont' stick to the standard 4-bar phrasing or even have well defined phrases at points. In the piece I have basically I treat the first 4 phrases as a section with something like an extended coda or postlude type of stuff. (stuff that isn't structurally all that important or related to the main theme but is suppose to give some variation to the piece).  I'm not sure if its a good idea to do it but its hard to make that decision because I've heard it so much that it seems to fit and I like. I think though that anyone hearing it for the first time might not hear it as completely coherent but atleast to me it sounds better than some of the stuff I've heard.

Anyways, You'll see soon enough what I'm talking about I don't mind posting my work for all to see but I just don't want to post crap ;/ but I know I have to start somewhere if I want to make progress.

Thanks,
Jon

[dizzyfingers]

I'm about 75% of the way through the piece and I really want to redo most of it but I feel that I just need to get something done.

Anyways, You'll see soon enough what I'm talking about I don't mind posting my work for all to see but I just don't want to post crap ;/ but I know I have to start somewhere if I want to make progress.

Thanks,
Jon

So Jon, what happened to this piece of music?
Did you present it on here?
Would luv to hear it!

[jonslaughter]

So Jon, what happened to this piece of music?
Did you present it on here?
Would luv to hear it!

Lol, I don't even remember what piece that was and even remember writing that. I wrote several pieces around that time. Virtually everything I wrote at the time was pretty poor and deficient as at that time I was not a piano player(I could play very little, I could improvise noise). I read a lot of theory and tried to compose by the numbers. It isn't that every piece sounded terrible but I didn't understand music and because I was composing using Sibelius I could not feel the music. Only once I started actually playing piano well did everything change except that I still do not like to play regular structured music.

Those 3 pieces are all around that time so I really don't know which one I was referring. The other is a year later so I don't know if I stopped and then finished it or used the wrong date or what(the date's may not be that accurate). They are midi generated(I used soundfonts IIRC or the built in sounds of Sibelius for the piano) and that was likely the worse thing. I should have just learned the piano. I was trying but I'd rarely practice and had no idea what to do. I was trying to compose music through "theory" as I was studying a lot theory from Koska Payne and a other books(I think the counterpoint was from Fux and Kennan but I may have been reading Goetschuis back then). Also, I was more into guitar back then so that is what I spend most of time time practicing. (and to be honest I was doing more electronics than music around that time)

It's very likely it was the Abstract Dissonance song as that was one that I put more time in trying to create a longer piece with some structure. I ended up adding the "coda" later on from something I had laying around just to see if I could make it fit and so that is why the date is about 2 years later.