Alternate Cadenzas..

[ralessi]

How is it looked upon to play alternate cadenzas in competitions?  I'm playing in an International Competition in March, and for that, am Learning the Beethoven C minor concerto.  I really like the Mischa Levitsky cadenza for the first movement, but can i just take out the original and play something else?  In the Henle, the cadenza is written, in the Peters, its not.   SO......just curious.   


cheers!
Ricky

[dnephi]

Beethoven didn't write the cadenza to be played.  He just wrote his own cadenza. You can play whatever you want.  While you're at it, check out carl flitch's (sp?) cadenza.  He was Chopin's prodigy. 

[prometheus]

Beethoven wants you to improvise.

[brewtality]

Just play what you want. I am learning this and for the cadenza I use the busoni modifications rather than Beethoven's complete. If I ever learnt the fourth I'd add part of an alternate cad to it. In Rach 1, I replace part of it with the original version.

[dnephi]

You could play the Rach 3 cadenza in Beethoven 3 just for kicks 

[pita bread]

Just do the Alkan cadenza...

[dnephi]

Just do the Alkan cadenza...

That's not cadenza, that's a transcription of the entire concerto 

[pita bread]

Yeah, but he has his own cadenza in there.

[ramseytheii]

Whats the competition\who is on the jury?  On the one hand you have to have integrity, but on the other hand if it is not that important to you which cadenza you play for a competition, which is not necessarily an important public performance, then choose strategically!  Some people like Claudio Frank are very conservative, and say things like if the composer write a cadenzy for their own work, you must play it.  Sometimes though Mozarts cadenzas are frankly not that good.  But other people might be impressed that you took the time to research into something which is taken for granted normally.  It depends on what is most important to you!

Walter Ramsey

[phil13]

  Sometimes though Mozarts cadenzas are frankly not that good.  But other people might be impressed that you took the time to research into something which is taken for granted normally.  It depends on what is most important to you!

Walter Ramsey

True. In the recordinfg I have of Perahia playing Mozart 20, he played Beethoven's granted cadenza in the 1st mvt, but composed his own (which is great, if a little short) for the 3rd mvt.

Phil

[pianistimo]

ramseytheii, i take issue with your little comment about mozart's cadenzas.  they were short and sweet.  and fit right in.  now, about beethoven's.  if he wrote them for his piano concerto - then there is nothing better.  absolutely noone's can top them.  you're playing beethoven for beethoven.  who wants to hear someone elses crap.  (sorry)  i rarely use the word.  of course, i haven't heard misha's and maybe it's very beethovenish.  i think it's for interest alone - that someone would play something fresh and different.  but, what kind of motivation is that.  it is for the listeners and not beethoven.  i'm far from a jury member yet, but if i was on a jury - that would immediately disqualify you from the next round.  i think what shows ingenuity is a complete modern piece played with aplumb.  something that people haven't heard.  i think style can be shown by the choices of repertoire as well as the piano concertos that you have to choose from.

here is a good argument for your side, though.  the emperor has the cadenza written in.  if beethoven had insisted upon this - then he would have written them in for the rest.  you implied this already - so forgive me.  i just have feelings about original cadenzas if available.

[pianistimo]

i happened to find my old notes from 'the piano concerto' class and found also that i have the outline (formal design) of the concerto #3.  if you want it - i'll give it to you. it's a condensed analysis.  here's an example (using the first movement):

1. expo I:  rhythmically square right up the tonic chord;
II:  E-flat major, lyric, C minor C major   
Closing:  three quarters and a half:  like 4th concerto
much developing of 1st theme in this expo.

expo II:  (textbook)I, long bridge, second theme in E-flat, brilliant, long closing in E-flat sixteenth notes

development:  long, orchestra does the thematic material, piano comments in triplets and 16ths.

recap:  dramatic (in orch); shortened bridge; II in C major; closing in C major; I returns to lead to cadenza.  as regular a textbook form as mozart K 488, but blunter, much longer.

you already probably have a more thorough analysis - but sometimes for programs - it's nice to have a sort of concise one.