Paradox of adult music learners

[phdezra]

In the book "The Perfect Wrong Note", there is a chapter on 'Adventurous Amateurs'. As I posted earlier in another thread, I think this is a wonderful book for anyone at any level.  Here is a quote from page 204, which shows some obvious, yet profound insight:

"The paradox is that adult music learners, while they often have the lowest expectations, are in a uniquely excellent position to succeed. Many come to this endeavor with fervent desire, love of music, enchantment with the idea of making music with their own bodies and emotions, and leisure time and disposabke income to support lessons. Even more important, they bring maturity and intelliegence to the project. But how much can adults learn if they are constantly comparing themselves negatively to others (children, no less) and feeling guilty about every unmusical wrong note? Add to this the pervasive notion of practice as tedious discipline, adherence to the traditional "no mistakes" philosophy, and uncertainty that they have any real talent for music, and they soon find themselves in a state of semi-paralysis of body and mind.

Let's contrast music study with golf, another favorite self-improvement undertaking of mature individuals.  Golf is challenging and unpredicatable, just like music performance. Happily, though, golf isn't played by precocious kids; therefore, no need for self-deprecating comparisons to little prodigies. A botched golf swing is silent and (if no one happpens to be looking) unobserved by anyone. An obvious musical clinker, though, resonates embarassingly through the house; even the neighbors are often subjected to it.  And while golf may be a beautiful..."

Certainly gives one pause to think about it that way.

Ezra

[leucippus]

"But how much can adults learn if they are constantly comparing themselves negatively to others (children, no less) and feeling guilty about every unmusical wrong note?"

I haven't read the book, but as an adult learner (57 years old) I can only say that the above premise doesn't even apply to me.  I don't compare myself to others, and I don't feel guilty about making mistakes.  I'm learning for crying out loud.  Why should I feel guilty about making mistakes?  Heck, if I didn't make any mistakes I wouldn't be learning, I'd already be an accomplished pianist. 

So the paragraph that you quoted above just appears to me to be much ado about nothing.  The basic premise that the author is asserting here doesn't even apply to me.

[phdezra]

So the paragraph that you quoted above just appears to me to be much ado about nothing.  The basic premise that the author is asserting here doesn't even apply to me.

Awesome! Though I think you are in the minority. From what I have read on many forums, and from what I have heard from two different teachers, many (not all) adult beginners get frustrated for a variety of reasons.  All the more power to those who can avoid those pitfalls.

[maestoso]

i think it's awesome when young kids can play so well. it encourages me to get better, cause if you are truly a beginner and some 7 year old can play fantasie impromptu, well he must have been playing since he was 3 or 4, so that means in 4 years i should be able to play it.(unless i suck and should take up cazoo)!

[pianistimo]

good insights from everyone.  had to laugh at the silent golf swing.  tis true that when on stage - it all is exposed.  wrong notes.  memory stuff.  but, the thing is that if you quit piano or anything you start and start on something else - all those years are wasted.  imo, better to struggle and suffer at something you love then begin again on something you barely know anything about at all.  golf for instance, for me.  if i tried to hit a golf ball into a hole i would become so frustrated i'd start digging trenches like thal.  but, i have no interest in golf.  very little in tennis.  much less in long distance running.  my only other real hobby is gardening.  things don't change much.  you don't generally have neighbors transplanting your flowers from here to there.  i like things that i can come back to and know where they are. 

i would like to see thal play golf, though, because i think he's probably not as bad as he jokes about.  also, i want to seem1469play piano and cook.  and, bernhard shuffle a deck of cards and play scarlatti at the same time.  and, hmm.  leucippus come out of hibernation (just wondering if he would look like that mountain guy that built his own cabin,e tc.  except a piano would have to be in the center), maestoso conduct...

speaking of conducting...i heard ricardo muti conduct the overture to semiramide (and althoguh i know nothing of the plot and all) the music was sooo beautiful.  ricardo muti is coming in october or november.  must go. 

[persona]

I agree. And I also belive inverse psichology plays an important role. This is my experience: my grandparents (from both sides of the family) were obsessed about their children becoming artists, so they arranged piano lessons for them that would keep going in the summer while all the other kids were playing outdoors. As a "rebelion", they developed an absolute lack of interest in music  (consider as well, the teachers back then didn't belive that much in the students, and the classes were not that challenging). Years later the new generation came along (me) and, in an attempt not to make the same mistakes their parents did, mine didn't iniciate me in music at an early age. I happened to discover my real passion (classical piano) at the age of 18, regreting not having started earlier. But when I think about it, I probably wouldn't have appreciated music lessons back then. I far as I was concerned until my late teen's, classical music made no sense, it was made up "as it went along". So my point is, whether your passion is golf, music or you name it, a vocation is something one has to figure out for oneself.* So that's the problem with young iniciation... you might end up loving it, but you'll never be sure if it was your desicion or someone else's.

*(correct me if this word (or any other) does not exist)

[timothy42b]

Let's contrast music study with golf, another favorite self-improvement undertaking of mature individuals.  Golf is challenging and unpredicatable, just like music performance. Happily, though, golf isn't played by precocious kids; therefore, no need for self-deprecating comparisons to little prodigies. Ezra

Golf probably is a good comparison.  But the precocious kid thing isn't strictly true.

Kids do play golf, and they learn it in a fundamentally different manner than adults.  Bertholy (one of the old famous teachers, has a classic book out on learning the swing) expressed it well.  He said the absolute best way to learn a swing was just to watch a good one and imitate it.  And unfortunately, that mechanism is totally unavailable to adults.  So he devised a system of drills and position correction that works for adults. 

Another similarity is that most people who play either piano or golf don't get very good at it!  Golf may be even worse than piano in this respect, because as you age your timing goes, and it is more critical in golf than music.