High point of a prelude and fugue (?)

[m1469]

My basic question :

When a prelude and fugue are played together, does one consider the long line between both of them and decide on a single highest point between both parts put together ?

I know that with JS Bach, his preldues and fugues were not necessarily meant to even be performed at all, and sometimes they are not performed together (maybe a person plays only preludes).  And from a compositional standpoint, perhaps the idea was more about each individual part, consisting of the individual preludes and fugues, which more or less happened to be placed together....  vs the overall affect of both performed in one sitting as something like a single piece.

But with Shostakovich, for example, his were modeled in a sense after the WTC and the concept would have been different for him.  He knew that they would be performed (or at least he would have hoped, I would think... LOL) and he, I believe, would have expected them to be performed together (a corresponding prelude and a fugue together).  And especially when going from the prelude to the fugue with an 'attacca', as in Op 87 no 1 in C Major, there is not necessarily a distinct break even in sound between the two.

So, when considering the long line, would a person consider the two as one and find a single most high part between the both ?



m1469

[m1469]

In thinking a little further... I suppose a prelude and fugue are something like two movements of the same piece.  With that in mind, I wonder the same kind of thing for a piece with multi-movements.

Does the long-line extend throughout each movement and into one fundamental concept, therefore having a single hightest point for the entire piece ? 


Thanks,
m1469

[m1469]

My intuition would say "Yes" but I don't have anything concrete (at least not at the tip of my tongue) to back it up.

[phil13]

m1469,

I have a tendency to think of the prelude and fugue as 2 completely sepatate pieces meant to be played together. Although Bach did not write them to be played this way, he DID write the preludes for a single purpose: to prepare the listener's ear for the fugue, which is the main part of the entire thing. The line is broken at the break between the two pieces.

Now, as for sonata or suite movements, those are usually thematically related, and they aren't written so that one is only to prepare for the other, but rather so the two movements (or three or four or five, etc.) work together, each one dependent on, yet completely free of, the other. The long line does extend throughout the entire work. In Beethoven's sonatas, the climax of the whole piece is usually reached in the last movement. In a Bach Suite, the gigue usually provides the climax reached from the other dances building tension, etc.

Phil

[m1469]

Thanks, Phil, for your helpful response.   What you have said makes sense to me, and I am thinking about this as it relates to somebody like Shostakovich ... I may be back.


m1469 

[m1469]

m1469,

I have a tendency to think of the prelude and fugue as 2 completely sepatate pieces meant to be played together. Although Bach did not write them to be played this way, he DID write the preludes for a single purpose: to prepare the listener's ear for the fugue, which is the main part of the entire thing. The line is broken at the break between the two pieces.

Phil

Okay, I am back already  .  If the line is not broken between the two pieces, or very minimally anyway (maybe just a breath) then do you feel what you have said still applies ?

My example above was Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in C Major, Op 87 no 1, where we leave the Prelude and enter the Fugue with an 'attacca'.  Concievably, the transition could go without a break in sound. 

[faulty_damper]

If I understand you correctly, you mean the dynamics?

Then, it depends on which prelude and which fugue.  One example which places emphasis on the sostenuto forte is in WTC2 in C major.  The prelude clearly implies majesty greater than the fugue in C major.  The prelude sounds like a quasi-chorale and one could easily imagine it performed on an organ.  The fugue is lighter, more playful.

[m1469]

hmmmm... well, I think my question is a bit complex.  Unfortunately I don't know how to whittle it down at this point.

I suppose I am speaking of intention more than anything else.  I am wondering where the focal point of one's intention would be in the above stated cases, and this does often have some kind of dynamic significance to accompany it, though dynamics in and of itself are not quite what I am talking about. 

Your post is quite helpful none-the-less.

[phil13]

Okay, I am back already  .  If the line is not broken between the two pieces, or very minimally anyway (maybe just a breath) then do you feel what you have said still applies ?

My example above was Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in C Major, Op 87 no 1, where we leave the Prelude and enter the Fugue with an 'attacca'.  Concievably, the transition could go without a break in sound. 

Actually, what I said pertains only to the WTC. Romantic and modern Preludes and Fugues are built differently, so Shostakovich probably had something more integrated in mind.

In the course of researching fugues, I came across Glazunov's Prelude and Fugue in D minor, Op.62. In that piece, (which also has not only an attacca, but no double bar at the end of the prelude) Glazunov actually fuses parts of the Prelude into the Fugue to build the coda.

Thus, obviously not all preludes and fugues are independent, but J.S. Bach's WTC ones are.

Phil

[m1469]

Actually, what I said pertains only to the WTC. Romantic and modern Preludes and Fugues are built differently, so Shostakovich probably had something more integrated in mind.

In the course of researching fugues, I came across Glazunov's Prelude and Fugue in D minor, Op.62. In that piece, (which also has not only an attacca, but no double bar at the end of the prelude) Glazunov actually fuses parts of the Prelude into the Fugue to build the coda.

Phil

This is quite interesting, thanks for sharing this info.  I am not familiar Glazunov.  I guess in the case where the line is not broken between the prelude and fugue, one would want to think a little more seriously about overall shaping.  However, in most cases (that I have seen) even with Romantic and modern preludes and fugues, as faulty mentioned about WTC P's & F's, the character between the two are still quite different individually.   This seems to pose a little bit a musical puzzle to me.

Anyway, I guess I have some thinking, research, and experimenting to do.


Thanks,
m1469