In response to a few things 6th_Gen_Beethoven has recently posted:
I don’t like to sit by and watch you attack other members of this board, so I am going to add my opinion. I would ask you bear with me as I analyze some of what you said, and argue another side of the issue. I will use the ‘quote’ feature to reprint your view, and I will counter appropriately.
Arguing homosexuality is or is not a choice not something worth arguing over for a long time. There is no way for either side to prove this yet.
you can still choose to minimalize your homosexual tendencies.
Consider this: you try to minimalize your heterosexual tendencies. Stop having any sexual desire towards women. Or, if you meant homosexual “acts” – stop having any sexual acts with women. Not that easy, is it? It is your nature to want to be with women, just as it is the nature of a gay man to want to be with another man. Minimilize your own tendencies.
As I've said before, I think that many homosexuals who commited [sic] suicide were suffering from other serious mental disorders such as depression.
You are right in suggesting that homosexual teens may suffer from depression. But let’s examine why they are depressed. Homosexual teenagers are going through a very tough part of their lives: adolescence. Do you recall adolescence? All those weird feelings and changes. A very awkward time for lots of teens. Now add onto that the fact that your sexual feelings were different from the what the majority of your peers were experiencing. There is a huge since of isolation, lonliness.
So again, according to published experts:
"The humiliation and frustration suffered by some adolescents struggling with conflicts over their sexual orientation may precipitate suicidal behaviour” (Garland, AF., and Zigler, E. Adolescent suicide prevention. American Psychologist, 1993. 41:2.)
"Gay and lesbian youth have a two- to threefold risk of suicide, and they are probably at greater risk for depression.” (Petersen, AC., Compas, BE., Brooks-Gunn, J., Stemmler, M., Ey, S., and Grant, KE. Depression in adolescence. American Psychologist, 1993. 41:2.)
The youth are depressed because they are teased by peers at school, told by their religious organizations that their desires are immoral, and generally feel left outside the realm of normal adolescence. Not because of anything they did. Just because of the way they are. And this leads to depression – which can lead to suicidal thoughts, etc.
No matter what kind of face you put on it, the bible does condemn homosexuality.
In discussing the legality of gay marriage, the Bible should not be an issue. According to many legal experts, there is a requirement in our Constitution that the state should be separate from the church.
James Madison (our fourth President, popularly known as “the Father of our Constitution”) writes on the issue: “Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together” (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).
Just because the Bible says something does not make that thing legally viable in our country.
1st Corinthians 6:9-11 - 9:Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders will inherit the kingdom of (New International Version)
Now I am perplexed: the word “homosexual” was not in existence until the mid-nineteenth century (“[The word ‘homosexual’] was first seen in public print in 1869 when it appeared in two anonymous German pamphlet.”
https://www.drama.uwaterloo.ca/Gross%20Indecency/homosexuality_word.shtml) … Why does it appear in the Bible? Because your refer to the NIV version – a modern interoperation of the Bible. Do a little research on the original texts.
The Greek word Paul uses, translated by the NIV as “homosexuals” is malakoi. This word can be translated as soft to the touch, effeminate, spineless, soft-willed, even.
Yet many modern translations of the Bible have translated malakoi as "homosexual," there is compelling evidence that this meaning is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word paiderasste. That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals.
Read them and weep.
All I can say about that statement is that it’s petty and unnecessary.
Nobody said that homosexuals are stupid. Lots of strait [sic] people are artistic, you don't see me using that to justify straitness [sic]. You can't tell me that the average homosexual is smarter than the average strait [sic] person.
I did not see Chop say anything about gay people being smarter than straight people. What are you trying to prove here?
If two men can marry each other, who's to say that a man can't marry two women? … After homosexual marriage is legal, people will be able to work toward legalizing polygamy and bestiality.
Is this really valid? Polygamy and bestiality are not even in the same league! One consenting adult who wants to marry another consenting adult. The same as heterosexual marriage. EQUALITY, in other words. Having the same rights as heterosexual couples. Not having sex with pets or marrying multiple people.
Gay couples are not looking for “special rights,” just EQUAL rights.
You said that "most" homosexuauls are highly artistic. Since "most" heterosexuals are not highly artistic, your statement implied that the average homosexual has something over the average heterosexual.
His statement implied that homosexuals, in general, express their artistic side. He did not say that most heterosexuals are not as well. Again, what are you arguing here? He said nothing about homosexuals having something over heterosexuals.
If you wish to call the thousands of ex-homosexuals liars, go ahead.
Did he call those “thousands of people” liars? No. If you want to call the millions of gay people in this country and around the world liars for claiming that their homosexuality was not a choice for them, then you go ahead. It does not make you correct. You’re arguing against something Chop never even said.
Heterosexuals don't suffer from the defecits [sic] that homosexuals do.
You have NEVER presented any compelling evidence that homosexuals suffer any deficits. Your NARTH evidence is about as compelling to me as my Human Rights Campaign (
www.hrc.org) evidence would be to you.
NARTH is the only professional mental health organization that promotes reparative therapy. It is a small group of people disseminating their opinions. The organization is one that religious conservatives tout as proof that gay people are mentally deficient.
Much larger mental health organizations – that is, the MAINSTREAM – have formed a coalition against reparative therapy. A few of these groups are: American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, National Education Association. These groups are not a fringe group, like NARTH. They are the groups to which nearly all members of those prospective fields belong. They are researchers, doctors, and professionals who have done research on this therapy, and said that it is unhealthy and should not be used. Whose opinions will I trust – the AMA/APA/NEA/etc. or NARTH? I think I will go with the mainstream healthcare and education professionals, not the organization that religious conservatives tout as proof that gay people are mentally deficient..
(Chop’s) assumption is nowhere near enough to discredit (NARTH) though.
I think that Chop does not need to discredit this group: plenty of mainstream professional organizations – nationally recognized and accepted experts on education and mental health - already have.
My two cents.
-Josh
Topic: Controversial issues - Left or Right?