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Topic: Intermediate player - what best to practice/study?  (Read 4846 times)

Offline tbar12

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Intermediate player - what best to practice/study?
on: January 15, 2004, 03:04:37 AM
I believe I am an intermediate piano player and would like to improve.  

Currently, I am practicing I-IV-I-V-V7-I chord progression in all keys.  I want to be able to read and play sheet music more quickly.

Any suggestions or experience you can pass along would be great.

Email address - anthony.bardana@idc-ch2m.com

Thanks
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #1 on: January 16, 2004, 06:24:47 AM
Are you playing any pieces? If you give an idea of where your'e at then it will be easier to advise.

Chop ;)

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #2 on: January 16, 2004, 07:25:08 PM
I enjoy more of the contemporary music.  The pieces I am learning are Billy Joel - Piano Man and Goodnight My Angel, Elton John - Crocidile Rock and Don't Let the Sun Go Down, and Andre Bocceli - Time to Say Goodbye.

Any suggestions for practice or learning are appreciated.
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #3 on: January 16, 2004, 09:51:33 PM
Get a good teacher who will allow you to play the music you like. If you don't want a teacher I would just reccomend trying harder and harder pieces (rhythmically and technically). This may require you to learn at least a little classical music. Check out Chopin's nocturnes op.9#2, and the posthumous one in C# minor. Or the 1st mvmnt of the moonlight sonata.

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #4 on: January 17, 2004, 01:52:43 AM
Chopiabin,

Thank you for your suggestions.  I do have a piano teach I visit once every two weeks who allows me to play the music I enjoy.  However, the pieces you suggested I will look into.

My other question may be more elementary ...

As I practice different printed chord progressions (I-IV-I-V-V7-I), how do you improvise and know which chord to play if you are out of a set pattern?  For example, if you begin in the key of C and play a ii7, how do you know which chord to play next and how do you get to that chord?

Thanks so much!

Tony
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #5 on: January 17, 2004, 09:28:12 AM
Are you studying music theory? If you are doing a key change, you would need to go from a major II7 to a major IV7. If you are just making up your own melodies and chord progreesions, then you should just follow it with whatever sounds good to you.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #6 on: January 17, 2004, 09:28:53 AM
I'm sorry, I meant major V7!!

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #7 on: January 19, 2004, 02:20:17 AM
Chopiabin,

Thank you so much for your patience and suggestions.  However, I am not sure I follow.

I have not studied music theory - only parts and pieces along the way.  

If I am in the Key of C and I play a major II7 (D7) and then play a major V7 (G7), I believe I am still in the Key of C.  Is that correct?

What I would like to be able to do is sit down and simply play a chord, tie together some leading notes to the next chord and simply "play".  But I don't know if there is a pattern or which chords tie together well.

I apologize if this is not making much sense.  I have lots of information but am trying to make sense of it all.

Thank you once again

Tony
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #8 on: January 19, 2004, 03:18:21 AM
The information you want exhists (music is not rocket science). But I doubt it can be given to you in a short post.

You will need to learn a bit of theory, but what you want is not to be found in "orthodox" theory and harmony books.

I suggest you go through the two books below. They have exactly what you want, explained from scratch.

Ward Cannel and Fred Marx - How to play the piano despite years of lessons (Chappel)

Norman Monath - How to play popular piano in ten easy lessons (Fireside - Simon&Schuster).

If you are going to get just one book, get the first one (Cannel & Marx).

After you finish these, if you really want to get the meaning of it all, read through these two other books:

Robert L. Jacobs - Understanding Harmony (Oxford University Press)

W. A. Mathieu - Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern Expression

As for your question, stick with I (C), IV (F), V7(G7) for the moment. You can't go wrong.

If you want to stay in the key of C, you must play II (Dminor), not (D major). You can replace chord IV (F) by chord II (D minor) for an interesting effect.

Try this: I (C) - VI (Am) - IV (F) - V(G). Then repeat replacing IV by II: I(C) - VI (Am) - II (Dm) - V (G).

There is a reason and an explanation for all this. It is not difficult. It is just long! (these books have around 200 pages each!) :(

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #9 on: January 19, 2004, 07:25:55 PM
Bernhard,

I want to thank you for your advice, suggestions and patience.

There was a little voice inside my head indicating the information existed but it was not in a response but a technique.  I have parts and pieces of information - like a puzzle - but am not sure how they all fit together.  And some pieces are missing.

I will purchase the Cannel and Marx book and begin.  

As for the chord progressions you suggested, I am very interested in trying it tonight.  I understand the chords but I struggle with why those chords work in that progression.  I also would like to be able to string individual notes to get from one chord to another - so it sounds more like "music" rather than chord progressions.

Hopefully, Cannel and Marx will have the answer.

Thank you again so much Bernhard!

Gratefully,

Tony
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #10 on: January 20, 2004, 12:39:41 AM
You are welcome! :)

Let us know how you are getting along.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #11 on: February 03, 2004, 01:50:59 AM
Bernhard,

I just completed Channel and Marx How to Play the Piano Despite Years of Practice - cover to cover.  There was a tremendous amount of practical information regarding various styles.

Hopefully, you can help me with yet another question.  Suppose I have the melody to a particular piece of music - say Amazing Grace.  Is there a theory or method to selecting the appropriate three, four and possibly five note chords that correspond to the melody piece?

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks again.

Tony
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #12 on: February 07, 2004, 11:02:56 PM
So, how did you like the book?

Amazing grace. Let us see only the first part. The melody goes:

G – C – E – C – E – D – C – A – G

Which chords to use? The most orthodox approach is to use the I – IV – V chords, in this case, C major, F major and G major. But which one? And where?

Well, the first note sounds good by itself. But the C needs a chord. Both F major and C major have C as one of its notes. But if you try, you will see that F major does not sound right at all, while C major fits the bill perfectly. In fact, the next 5 notes all sound good with a C chord. Then we get to the D. C major clearly does not belong there, so which chord should you use? The only chord that has D in its composition is G major. If you try that, you will see that it fits like a glove. The next C can fit either F major or C major (both have C). F major sounds much better. The next A can only go with F major. Finally the last G (either G major or C major could be the chord) happens to go better with C major.

So now it looks like this:

G – C – E – C – E – D – C – A – G  (melody notes)
     C -  C - C -  C – G – F – F -  C

Following these two rules or recipes:

1.      Use chords I – IV – V. (Because they contain all the notes of the scale).
2.      Use the chord that has the melodic note as its constituent; if there are more than one chord, choose the one that sounds the better. (This means that every melody has an implicit harmony – a very deep statement)

You will be able to harmonise any simple tune in a primitive way. You must start with this in order to train your ear to recognise the best chord instantly without having to experiment with different choices. You should just be able to play the correct chord with the correct melodic note. Start with simple melodies that stay in just one key (Nursery rhymes are ideal).

Soon however this will become unsatisfactory. But instead of adding more chords, experiment with different textures. For instance instead of playing the chords in their root position, inver them and check what effect this has. Or break the chord into a bass note and two chords (like in a waltz). Or play the chord as an arpeggio instead of a chord. Or play the chord as an Alberti pattern (instead of playing the chord CEG, alternate the notes: C-G-E-G-C-E-G-E) This will sound like Mozart. Or use a modified Alberti much favoured by Beethoven: C-G-E-G-E-G-C-G-E-G-E-G). Examine pieces to see what other arrangements composers used.

Once you have explored this, you will be ready to start using other chords. For instance instead of G, use G7 (so the recipe becomes I – IV – V7). Or try C-Dm-G (I- ii – V).

The important thing is to realise that a good arranger does not really follow rules. He “hears” the music in his head, and he just knows which keys to press in the piano that will give him the sound that he wants. No one is born with this skill. It is something one learns. But it takes time, a very structured approach (that is why it is a very good idea to limit the number of chords you work on), and consistency over time.

For some really excellent ideas, you may be just ready for:

Laura Campbell – Sketching at the keyboard (Stainer & Bell)

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline tbar12

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #13 on: February 08, 2004, 01:32:27 AM
Bernhard,

Let me start by saying you have got to be the Yoda of piano!

The book was great and gave me some good foundation to music theory.  In my head I understand it and now I am trying to apply it.  

As for Amazing Grace, you gave me the "receipes" which I was desperately looking for.  Eventually, by stumbling around and pure guessing, I may have found the chords that worked.  But having some rules or formulas to follow gives me a structure to work around.

Honestly, you have helped me a great deal and I want to thank you for your advice and taking the time to explain this to me.

I will see if I can find Sketching at the Keyboard.  I am not sure if I am ready for that but I enjoy the theory and challenge.

Thank you once again Bernhard!  

All the best,
Tony
Intermediate piano player looking to improve.  Interested in the experience and suggestions of others who can help.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Intermediate player - what best to practice/st
Reply #14 on: February 08, 2004, 08:10:12 PM
Quote
Bernhard,

Let me start by saying you have got to be the Yoda of piano!



May the Force be with you! ;D

Have a look at this thread, it may interest you.

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1074757333
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)
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