One day you will understand when you play, eg Mozart sonata, and many classical pieces have a lot of scaly passages too. It is the foundation.

ask bernhard or pianistimo then ponder the question again! lol

I'll tell you beginner to beginner: leave Moonlight alone for a while. I'm not saying this to jinx you, I simply want to prevent you from playing such a difficult piece over and over, and growing sick of it before you can master it. Trust me, that sonata is too beautiful, it's just not worth "ruining" it for yourself. This happens to almost every beginner who has faith in him/herself (me included). We catch a piece we love and say "I'll practice every day, how hard could it be?". Well belive me, difficult pieces are best kept for advanced players.
Anyway, if you keep trying, good luck. Who knows, you might make it after all.

Torture. Masochism. Boredom. But nice strong fingers too, so every cloud...

Studying scales are useless unless you notice them in pieces/improvisations you play.

For a start,  it's impossible to work out the key of a piece or even begin to properly analyse it without a thorough knowledge of scales.

Knowing the key makes sight reading easier.

But in the words of da Big B, just the tip of the iceberg

I agree with lostinidlewonder. They're only as good as their musical purpose, which will vary from person to person. Using a musical instrument to develop physical dexterity and nothing else, even for short periods, is just a sad waste of time, instrument and consciousness for me. I prefer to view the whole thing as one entity - a sort of yoga, if you like - everything is related and grows simultaneously.

However, exposure to forums has taught me that I, and others who are impelled to improvise, tend to think in entirely different ways about these matters; not necessarily better or worse, just differently.

Using a musical instrument to develop physical dexterity and nothing else, even for short periods, is just a sad waste of time, instrument and consciousness for me. I prefer to view the whole thing as one entity - a sort of yoga, if you like - everything is related and grows simultaneously.

Playing the piano is a performance art...... I don't think anyone is talking about  physical
dexterity for the sake of it??

Actually that mentioning of it helping in music theory is quite true. If you play all the scales you get to know the scales very very well and writing your music becomes much easier. I still think one of the reasons I'm so good at music theory is because I do very well visualizing the keyboard which i do all the time.

I have been told to practice these scale variants numberous times, but I've never done it myself . I think the purpose is to get your mind thinking of two seperate hands, as opposed to thinking about the RH while the LH drags along (as can be the case while practicing regular scales). However, if while you practice scales, you concentrate on both hands equally and are aware of what each one is doing independant of the other, there is no need for this.

If you find your LH dragging behind your RH, though (or being "led along" by the RH), you may want to consider doing the variants INSTEAD of practicing scales normally. I see it as a waste of time to practice normal, 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths all in a single practice session. Also, if you're simply looking to play something slightly more interesting (I love the sound of parallel 6ths), you can go ahead and play scales any way you'd like.

I don't think I've ever come across a scale fragment in any piece that used the same fingering I'd practiced in my scales.

I do practice scales, because they are the only dexterity exercise I do, and it is pretty easy to measure with the metronome if I'm making progress.  Whether it will do me any good in the long run I'm not sure, so I don't waste hours on it, just ten minutes a day.  Right now I'm doing five note scale fragments, because I can do them faster than i can do a two octave scale, and because it has forced me to learn some different hand motions.  My plan is to get five note fragments up to sixteenths at quarter = 160, then ramp the speed down and start six note fragments.  Gotta have a goal, you know. 

Really, I don't get it.  What does playing scales over and over gain you that simply playing real works doesn't?

I'm a beginner and I'm currently working on the third movement of the Moonlight Sonata.  Obviously, I can see the benefit of playing C# arpeggios over and over, but I don't understand how playing the entire C# scale up and down will help me.

I'm not trying to stir anything up.  I'm just genuinely curious about the benefits of scales over actually learning scales by playing real works in a given key.

1.  I guess it helps you play in other keys, playing E major scale and learning it well will make runs with E major in them, or songs in E major easier

2.  Good simple way to improve. 

also all pieces are different, so just learning 1 song in each key just to get used to that key wouldn't be particually efficient, and I guess you dont really use the same fingering in scales as you do in pieces of the same key, so scales aren't completely efficiant either...  But its alot quicker and simpler then going out and finding a piece in every key and learning that to help you with each key, of course  that happens, but its not really any more efficient then scales, and thats probably why they are there, just another option

The arguments in favor of playing scales seem to fall into two categories:

1) To learn and familiarize oneself with the notes in a scale -- the "theory" side
2) To more quickly develop common positions occurring across pieces and periods -- the technical and musical side

I am also a beginner (less than a year), and self-taught (oops, I mean self-learned). However, I have a strong musical background pre-piano, can read music, have a good ear, etc., so for me the benefit to scales would not be the theory aspect but the technical and musical side. I know what notes are in the key of Bb, but if I've been playing C major all day and switch to Bb, it can be difficult to "break out" of C, even though I know the difference intellectually. This can lead to frustration. It sounds like scales can speed up the process, so I will take the advice.

That being said, should I practice scales at my own pace, experimenting with positions, dynamics, speed, and color, or has there been written a repetoire that might prove useful across pieces and periods? Or am I just thinking too much?

there are a lotS of advantages by practicing scales everyday. you teach your fingers to play clean and clear ( i cant find better words to visualize my idea, im not english speaking.. sorry). normally, our 4 and 5 fingers are weak, than by playing scale, we drill those fingers so that none will produce different weigth while touch the key. if you think that playing scale is useless for your tehnic, now i give you a challange, play C major scale four octaves and set your metronome crochet (1/4) = 60 than one octave = one crochet. if you capable to do this without any drill or practice, than you may say that practicin scale is useless.

in aboved posting, one said that it helps us to play pieces easily, this is 100 percent correct. scale is not just a scale. it comes in package. first is normal  scale, than in 3rd, 6th, 10th. arpeggio in 3 inversion, Dom 7th in all inversion, all are playing also in contrary motion, than playin polyrythm right = 2 and left = 3 + right = 3 and left =3.

normal scale, 3rd,6th,10th will help you playing most of mozart,  arpeggio and Dom 7th will help you in Liszt, polyrythm will help you to play chopin and liszt. if we alredy to handle the scales, than we dunt need to worried about the tehnic, all you need is just read and play.

i have an example. i play basketball, in order to play (and win) basketball there are number of aspect to be concern. first you must able to running fast (scale), than passing (arpeggio), lay-up ( Dom 7th), shoot (plyrythm). now, my question is, can we master all aspect just playing game (pieces)? i dunt think so. we need to exercise each in order to reach maximum result.

i had experienced it myself. i ve practicing fantasie-impromptu, paganini etude no 6 (liszt), ballade op23(chopin), and many chopin etude without any scale practice for years and it doest sound as i wish even i "can" play it with full of efforts. but know i just have a lesson from new teacher after 2 years, and she is one of the greatest pianist in my country, and she always say " scale is basic of everything, practice it carefully, use your metronome".

don't waste you're time to such big pieces, there are numbers of easier and still beautifull pieces and when you're not realize, you're be able even to sight read the sonata op27. trust me.. i'm not going to push my opinion but i dunt want anyone to have same experience like me.

The point of scales? Used to think they were absolutely useless. But since restarting lessons after 10 years I have found that they are so important for finger strength (especially in my left hand which lags behind my right somewhat) It will improve the smoothness of your legato runs and clarity of staccato passages. So persist! They also become somewhat addictive after a while(quite scary).

PS Don't listen to these guys discouraging you from learning this piece. Of course if you started the piano last week I'd give it a couple of years.... I remember listening to Clair de Lune by Debussy when I was 12 and I thought it was the most wonderful thing I had ever heard. So I went to piano teacher said I wanted to learn it(He gave me a very doubtful look - I was only abrsm grade 3 at the time). Well anyway I learnt it because I loved it and performed it a year later(reasonably well). I think this is the key to learning anything. If the music inspires you enough you will be able to do it. With ALOT of perseverance mind you! It wont be easy.

I know what notes are in the key of Bb, but if I've been playing C major all day and switch to Bb, it can be difficult to "break out" of C, even though I know the difference intellectually. This can lead to frustration. It sounds like scales can speed up the process, so I will take the advice.

I recently decided to remedy this weakness in my own playing.  I'm going through different figurations in each key, so for example I will work in Gm for a few weeks doing harmonic, melodic scales, chords, and arpeggios.  What I found worse than going from scale to scale was when I would switch from practicing arpeggios to the scale...  My mind wanted to play the scale, but the hands would automatically make motions for arpeggios and it would take a while to adapt.

What's been working for me is to aim my practice for consistancy, the first goal is being able to consistantly pull off a given figuration off the bat (without having to sit down and adapt the hands to it for an hour), when I can do that then I work on being able to consistantly switch between different figurations off the bat.  I've been finding that once I can comfortably do a scale with consistancy, it's not so difficult to add speed.

This has been a little breakthrough for me, what I found I'm developing in working on consistancy and freedom (to switch between scales, arps, chords, whatever) is not so much physical dexterity - it seems I've had that all along...  But I've been developing in how I think when playing, and confidence in my ability to pull it off, which is more important than I previously thought.  Not to mention enforcing good practice habits.

That being said, should I practice scales at my own pace, experimenting with positions, dynamics, speed, and color, or has there been written a repetoire that might prove useful across pieces and periods? Or am I just thinking too much?

For the repertoire vs exercises debate, my teacher made a good point one day that skillwise it doesn't really matter - you can develop either way.  So I like to be practical, in my case I don't always have a lot of time/opprotunities to perform, and I don't like learning repertoire only to forget it later, so I devote more time to forgettable exercises to develop my skill.

For practicing scales and other arbstracted figurations, I believe it's best to follow the principle of always building upon what you can already do.  The possibilites are infinite.  Just as an example, this is my framework plan of progression with technical exercises:

- learn how to play a scale in a key at a given tempo, then chords (tonic, dominant 7th), then arpeggios (tonic, dominant 7th).
- attain consistancy, being able to play each figurations 2X, 3X, 4X in a row accurately.  This is more of a mental endurance exercise than anything.
- attain freedom in switching between figurations in that key.
- do this for all keys, then attain freedom in switching between keys & figurations.  Cycling chromatically and around the circle of 5ths.  To be able to play any scale/chord/arpeggio on command.

From this kind of foundation I think it would be possible to expand into different figurations (C,E,D,F,E,G...  type of things), sequencing in ascending/descending 3rds & 5ths in any given key...  Whatever the imagination could come up with.  I'm thinking at some point practice on scales would become more and more like free improvisation, and the benefit for repertoire is obvious.

That's an example of the logical extention of the principle of building upon what you can already do, it excites me to think of how these technical exercises can lead to musical freedom.  Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I'm willing to find out.  What do you think?

Do you think it would make a difference to learn it sooner than later in the long run?

I know my scheme is tailored to myself specifically, I just happen to have been learning it this way from the start so I'll keep doing it to the end...  But I imagine the end result is the same either way.

Y'know, I never found the concept of thumb over useful at all in practice, nor the idea of learning two seperate motions.  I think it only caused unnecessary confusion as I was starting out...  For me it was more like learning thumb under at slower tempo, and as it sped up the fingers naturally released quicker until the motion morphed into 'TO'.  The motions are certainly different, but if we're going to be microscopic about it - the motion for any given speed is slightly different from a notch above or below.  The concept of not using the exact same motion for different speeds was useful, maybe that was the intention all along.

Well I completely agree that it shouldn't be the very first thing learned, the beginner wants to play music so it's important to be playing actual music ASAP.  What the beginner needs more than anything is motivation, the belief that they can play music.  The nitty gritty work on scales, theory and such sleep-prone exercises can come after the student already believes in themselves and understands that these boring things will lead to better music.

I can relate to the mantra effect, which I think could be classified as a sort of meditation.  For me it's a kind of flow when the conscious mind no longer has to work to play the scale, the hands feel good and natural moving along the keyboard, and the ears are hearing clearly each note.  I think this is the goal to achieve in all playing, when the subconscious takes over, which becomes a case of trust in yourself - so that the conscious mind doesn't begin to interfere, fixing what isn't broken.  I get that a lot, where I will suddenly start tampering with a perfectly good flow.

But what I was referring to in my previous post:

Do you think it would make a difference to learn it sooner than later in the long run?

wasn't about doing scalework in general sooner than later, but if one is already doing scalework to choose the path of going from key to key doing scales/arps/chords then later working on switching between keys vs doing scales in all keys, then arpeggios and chords. 

Multiple figurations one key at a time, or multiple keys one figuration at a time.

Doing it how I am (multiple figurations), I notice that it gives a little variety for the hand and ear - switching between arpeggios, chords and scales...  and I could only imagine my frustration if I'd tried learning arpeggios all at once!

I got rather annoyed with the Eleventh Commandment 'relax your fingers and hands!' when I was a complete beginner... I could barely get my fingers to work properly, let alone relax them! The relaxation came later without any conscious design.

yeah, I heard that plenty of times too.  How can anyone relax when they can't even get to the next note, heheh.  What I found useful in getting my fingers to work initially was to keep the objective tiny, instead of working on playing an arpeggio or scale (let alone in any kind of time), the make the goal simply to smoothly connect to the next note - one at a time.  From sound to sound, using a predetermined fingering.  That was the magic piece of advice that got my fingers to work when I was stuck.  Especially those damned arpeggios, those must be quite the tall hurdle for most students.

I think I got a little lost in my own situation and forgot the initial question was for beginners, hahah...  But now that I think of it, any serious student of piano ought to also be a student of teaching.  For all the help I've gotten from various people, it's only right that at some point I do my part in passing it on (once I actually acquire it ).

I think you're very insightful on the topic Overscore, what do you think would be the way to get a beginner started into scalework?

My first thought is that the ideal would be to be able to lead by example - to be able to improvise or play pieces featuring scales, in an inspiring way (not necessarily technically dazzling, but moving) in order to show "this is what you can do with scales".  To be forced to do scalework without being given any reason to could only make a student wonder "what am I doing this for?" - without an answer the student would conclude "...for no reason at all.  I wanna get out of here."

I think you're very insightful on the topic

Ooo, ta!

>>Overscore, what do you think would be the way to get a beginner started into scalework?>>

Tie them to a chair..?

I don't think people are interested at all in something until they can see an immediate use for it. In piano, you can learn to play mechanically without knowing what you're doing, so a lot of people probably think, 'why bother to learn all that rubbish?'

I think encouraging improvisation would be a good way to raise some interest, because at least then the scales would be seen to have a clear use.

I guess a good analogy is grammar. Nobody's interested in grammar until they try to write a book.

Improvisation

Well I can certainly see why you would think this. It is one of those things that is more beneficial to certain people than others. Overall, the point in learning and playing scales up and down would be to embed the key signature in your head, both reading it and playing it, using both sides of your brain. Once you know the scale really well, it is MUCH easier to apply it when reading a piece. It really goes either way for anyone, it helps for some people and not so much for others. Personally, I agree with you, memorizing scales hasn't helped me very much in the past, but I do certainly see the significance in doing it.