Musicality/Expression

[amanfang]

How does one develope musicality, or a greater depth of musical expression?  Is it through musical experience?  Active listening to great artists?  Life experience?  Just playing pieces?

[pianistimo]

probably never owning a metronome in ones life.  but, the thing is that usually piano teachers require them in the first three years and thereafter sporadically.  what if they just said 'play it as you feel!'  what do you think would happen then?  duh.

of course, by the time one gets to college - they are drilled into this mentality that there is a set right way and a set wrong way - and do not even attempt to play it near the wrong way because someone will set you straight right there  and then.  so, we play it the way out 'teacher says.' 

now, what if there were no teachers?  then what would happen?  people would be jiving to their own music.  actually smiling.  singing along.  basically doing what glen gould did.  did he have a teacher?

[dnephi]

probably never owning a metronome in ones life.  but, the thing is that usually piano teachers require them in the first three years and thereafter sporadically.  what if they just said 'play it as you feel!'  what do you think would happen then?  duh.

of course, by the time one gets to college - they are drilled into this mentality that there is a set right way and a set wrong way - and do not even attempt to play it near the wrong way because someone will set you straight right there  and then.  so, we play it the way out 'teacher says.' 

now, what if there were no teachers?  then what would happen?  people would be jiving to their own music.  actually smiling.  singing along.  basically doing what glen gould did.  did he have a teacher?

Wow, I'd say that's quite wrong.  I find the metronome an excellent tool for gaining a solid foundation and making sure that I'm not rubatoing the piece to death like I would be prone too.  You need to be able to play it straight if you want to have control when rubatoing.  Also, the metronome is great for when you are developing your technique.  I think that pianistimo is bitter right now because her teacher made her always use the metronome.

On subject, phrasing is important, as is having a beat, seeing the piece measure by measure, phrase by phrase.  A dynamic map is helpful, as is a complete conception of the piece.  Feel the piece and play it as you feel it, and then you must have loose wrists. 
Also remember tone, melodic lines, and relish in harmonic changes.  You might like the thread a while back which had 14 tips from a judge at a competition who identified essential characteristics of amazing pianists.

[pianistimo]

i'm joking.  of course the metronome is invaluable.  but, what is musical to one person can be garbage to another.  take piano rolls for instance.  did they use metronomes back then.  no!  did they play musically.  yes.  would it fly today?  no.

we sometimes tend to take music SO seriously that every performance becomes like a competition.  it is not.  just play.  that's what mozart and beethoven did.  if you worry so much about what other people think is musical or not musical - you'll die of worry.  just play it the best you know - and with the advice of your teacher (obviously, as you don't want mistakes in playing) but don't worry if some people don't like it. 

[opus10no2]

How does one develope musicality, or a greater depth of musical expression?  Is it through musical experience?  Active listening to great artists?  Life experience?  Just playing pieces?

'Musicality' cannot be developed; that is to say that one cannot affect one's own musical talents, the only thing that can happen is gaining more intimacy with certain pieces allows you to know what to do with it, experimenting with it, but this is more to do with technique.

There is such a thing as 'musical intelligence' but really this is instinctual and can only be honed by concious effort to conform to a standard or style.

You mention listening to recordings, and this is VERY important.
Any musician's musical conciousness is made up of everything he/she has ever heard, everything a composer ever comes up with in his/her head is a variation of combinations of things theyve experienced previously.
So listening to recordings widens one's sense of possibilities and gives your expressional conciousness more shades to paint with.

Aside from this, just learning pieces and developing technique is actually the most important thing for musical expression, technique encompasses the physical command to produce any sound your mind conjures up, and this is developed by experimentation; plain and simple.
Develop the connection between the imagined sound in your head, and match it with the real sounds being made by your fingers.

[leucippus]

How does one develope musicality, or a greater depth of musical expression?  Is it through musical experience?  Active listening to great artists?  Life experience?  Just playing pieces?

For me the last two on your list are the most important.

I think that listening to great artists is good, but certainly not if your intention is to replicate what they do.  I think what is much more important is to listen to a lot of them and realize that they all ultimately do their own thing.

In some ways I don't believe in articulation symbols on music score.  The composer may have had something in mind, but so what?  Is music really meant to just be replicated precisely how someone else thought it should be played (even the composer?).  I personally don't think this way.

I see music as being a are form that should be expressed by the individual performer.

If I play something and someone says, "Oh no, that's supposed to be played like this,… blah blah blah".  I simply respond with, "No, I play it like this" and then I play it the way I feel it should be played.  That is true art.  All the other is mere robotic replication.  That's what midi players are for!

No human plays a piece precisely as it is written.  And not two really great artists will express a piece in the same way.

So if you want to become a great artist you need to express the music how it naturally feels right for you.  If someone else has to teach you this then it's false feelings, not your own. 

So to me the last two things on your list are all that's important to musicality.  Play pieces how you feel them based on your life's experience.  If it feels good to you that's really all that matters.  If the audience doesn't like it then so be it.  At least it was genuine.  Although, usually if you play with genuine feelings you'll draw an audience in.

I would rather play for people who don't have preconceived ideas of what they are about to hear.  People who have expectations of what to hear should listen only to midi players.  That way they will never be disappointed by heartfelt artistic expressions.

[lostinidlewonder]

How does one develope musicality, or a greater depth of musical expression?  Is it through musical experience?  Active listening to great artists?  Life experience?  Just playing pieces?

Well you answered your own question but developing the method to achieve your goals are various. No matter what you do you must investigate the music and through trail and error determine the best sound.

I do not like the idea that we shouldn't play how the music is written, because the composer themselves are often very exact in what they want, they put in expression marks, note qualities etc, they know what they want. A lot of the musical descriptions Debussy gives in his preludes explains the feelings, images he wants created. But how can we create images with sound?

Another good way to develop ones musicality is to generate a list of all musical expression you can find in music. I assure you there are hundreds. Then seek good recordings and observe how professional musicians tackle those exact commands written by composers. A good teacher is best in my opinion though, someone who can demonstrate sound emotion to you both effectively and not so you can undertand the differences and how to vary it.

I think people think are getting scared about nothing when they think they will parrot recordings if they listen to it too often. I assure you, there is very little chance you will take on their exact sound, differences in your physical makeup and subtle differences in your playing will inevitably change the sound to your own playing.

There is never right or wrong in piano playing, only better.

[zheer]

   When you look at sheet music what do you see? well we see lots of dots ,lines funy shapes,numbers and more dots and lines and german/italian words. Now the question is once we are at the piano haw can we transform those dots,lines ect into music .This is the point where we need imagination, skill and feeling to convert those notes into expressive music, hence the more in-tune we are with our in-er thoughts and emotions which can only be created through life experience can we then connect with the expressive intent or psycology of the composer at the time which he wrote it, hence if you have never fallen in love forget about playing a Rachmaninoff piano concerto or a Chopin piano concerto, if you have never experienced rage forget about playing Chopin Revolutionary Etude.Haw can you describe a mountin if you have never seen one for your-self.
       For me listining to music or playing music with no honest expression,  connection and meaning,is like eating something with no flavour or with artificial flavour.

[pianowelsh]

Musicality and expression is mainly about how you react to music so the best way to develop it is to immerse yourself in LOTS of music and not always in an analytical way. I think however musicallity and the desire to express comes out of a total love of music. If you love it you naturally want to express it and represent it in the best way you can.  I heard one of the semi finalists at Leeds describe music a being the primary point of his communication, maybe we cant always understand what he says when he speaks and some pianists are painfully shy but at the keyboard its like finding a voice.

[invictious]

I'd say personal interpretation of the piece is the most important.

Just because someone wrote a piece about war, doesn't mean you have to interpret the piece as about a war, it's probably what personal interpretation which makes a piece outstanding.

Please, don't play Fur-Elise interpreting it as Scriabin.

[pianolist]

But Scriabin should not be interpreted like Für Elise, either!

[dnephi]

   .This is the point where we need imagination, skill and feeling to convert those notes into expressive music, hence the more in-tune we are with our in-er thoughts and emotions which can only be created through life experience can we then connect with the expressive intent or psycology of the composer at the time which he wrote it, hence if you have never fallen in love forget about playing a Rachmaninoff piano concerto or a Chopin piano concerto, if you have never experienced rage forget about playing Chopin Revolutionary Etude.Haw can you describe a mountin if you have never seen one for your-self.

Besides the obvious, you are incorrect.

Tchaikovsky, when asked by his sponsor if he had ever been in love replied the following way:

If you mean, have I experienced the joy of fulfilled love, then no, I have not.  But, if you mean, do I understand and feel the power of love, then yes.  You can feel it in my music...

And goes on.  He words it much better than I can try to say, but the idea is that you don't have to experience something to understand the feelings contained.

[zheer]

Besides the obvious, you are incorrect.


If you mean, have I experienced the joy of fulfilled love, then no, I have not.  mean, do I understand and feel the power of love, then yes.  You can feel it in my music...

  Well obviously you have difficulty with interpretation, since he clearly said that he understands and FEELS the power of love though he has not experienced the joy of FULLFILLED love, possibly because he was homosexuall and at the time homosexuality was almost a crime, so its not suprising that fulfilled love was going to be a problem. Anyway never likked Tchaikovsky, and if you are going to hide behind a great composer, well then lets not forget Beethoven who said my music is from the heart to the heart an he who truly understands my music will be free from all his troubles in life. Clearly this implies a connection between LIfe experience and music, thus the notion of acctually relating to the music through life events is surly not that hard to understand.
  Yes we all react to music when we hear something for the fast time, but that something is the srtong emotions of the composer and the performer not the passive listner, for instance Rach 2 one i first heard it as a child i did'nt like it because i didnt undestand, but as a young adult i loved it because my life experience's had changed and i could relate on a emotional leve. NOw dont get me wrong , there are plenty of character actors who pretend to be a character that they are not, the same can apply for pianists you can learn to express without having to connect.
   Anyway please dont reply and waste my time, Good luck.

[dnephi]

  Yay what fun.

Off topic, the "obvious" was your horrid spelling  .
However, using Beethoven's quote, if you understand his music, you will understand his life, and you haven't lived his life.  Therefore,
You should listen to Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony if you want to understand how he viewed love.  The quote, for which I have no reference, goes on and on about the intensity of love he felt and embodied in his music.  He felt love and he had its power, and he could understand the emotion of fulfilled love without having it. 

For your "life experience" argument,  it was merely a mental and emotional maturity that came with time.  I didn't like Brahms when I was younger.  I can comprehend Beethoven's tragedy without having his mental problems.  Otherwise, no one would play his music, and that would be ridiculous. 
QED.

[zheer]

 Are you American, because i really dont like you, and didnt i say dont reply.

[dnephi]

Are you American, because i really dont like you, and didnt i say dont reply.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but your rudeness and lack of comprehension are appalling.  I did not mean to insult you, although it probably came across that way because of how strongly I disagree with you and how plainly it seems to me that you are incorrect. 

Best of luck, in life as well as typing,

Daniel

[zheer]

Are you American, because i really dont like you, and didnt i say dont reply.

 

  Thats not rude, its honest, i dont like you.

[pianistimo]

zheer is angry.    and, how do you think tchaikovsky would feel?

all i can say, is never tell anyone they don't have feelings.  everyone has feelings.  some people show it more than others.  some think that showing too much means you have a weakness.  if you grow up with less emotion - you probably will show less emotion everywhere.  not just in music - but life.  and, yet - we also need those 'rational' kind of people that seem to have no emotion - to operate on people and solve quadratic equations.  suprisingly, though, on this forum - i get the feeling that there are many mathematicians - and probably quite a few that have more emotion than suspected.

i don't know why some very smart people do not like hugs and kisses.  i have to chase my daughter down to just get a hug.  sometimes she pushes away.  it is like she wants me to understand that i love her and she loves me without a lot of gushy stuff.  but, i long to hug her and kiss her - so i blow kisses out the window even after she has left and is halfway down the street.  if i drop her off at school, i wait until she gets intot he door before leaving.  she doesn't look back. but, sometimes she will glance really quick sideways.  it is at that point i blow the horn.

[lostinidlewonder]

Playing something musical has nothing to do with life experience and what emotions you have experienced in life. A piece will take on some sort of emotion through your constant improvement of the piece. The more you play it, the more you experiment with the piece, the more it changes.

Experience in life and emotions in life, these do have an effect on our music but they are more like the topping on top of the topping. The cherry on top of the cherry on the cake. It is something which exists on top of a lot of hard work to make the emotion sound real, not fake. I often think I hear fake music when I hear a Beethoven Sonata's come from young hands.

Musicality is not some gaseous mysterious effect pianists put into their playing, it has a procedure and development just as memorising notes. This refinement to piano playing often is of no interest to young players or those who just want to play piano for enjoyment and not labour on the details of a piece.

And composers used music as a window into their emotion/life. We can only guess what they really meant, and what they where thinking about, sometimes they tell us, often we are just left guessing. Human emotion is so complicated no one piece of music could describe anyones feeling, perhaps it could express a feeling in one point of time, but definatly not something which is all encompassing throughout their entire life, unless it is spiritual music. I doubt any composer would say to you, here listen to this one piece I composed, this is how I think love is like.

[zheer]

zheer is angry.    and, how do you think tchaikovsky would feel?

  To be honest the only time when i get angry is when am talking to an American on this forum, it is obvious why an American will find it hard to find the connection between music and life, simply because all that an American can express is self love and self glorification, and hatred towards anyone or anything that is contrary to an American belief. Am now convinced that lostinidlewonder is also an American since i also seem to diagree with most thing that he says, including the fact that his effort of being able to play the piano is the emotion that comes from his music, " A piece will take on some sort of emotion through your constant improvement of the piece".
    I truly find it hard to believe that one can express something they have never felt in life, haw can you paint a painting of a mountain if you have never seen one, i guess someone can describe it, the same applies to feeling sad happy angrly in love, these emotions are experienced in life, and most composer express these things, so unless you are American we are human ,thus the connection between life, emotion and music is obvious, Truly Am at a loss as to haw one fails to see this simple fact, have you ever questioned the meaning of early Romantic piano music, ie Beethovens piano sonatas were considered so different to say Mozart piano Sonata, or why scholars believe that one should have lived life before attempting Liszt sonata in B minor.
    Please dont reply if you are an American.

[pianistimo]

some people have experienced great pain.  a lot of famous composers didn't have any sort of 'ideal life' as their music implies.  am thinking mozart.  mostly happy and cheerful.  was he always happy?  was haydn always happy?  beethoven, moody and contemplative.  brahms, too.  tchaikovsky - to me, a happy medium.  they all seemed to express emotion in different ways.  some, more guarded.  others not.  beethoven was at a place in history where he could pretty much just write for himself and other musicians he wanted to please.  mozart had written for the aristocracy for specific times and places (just as haydn) in the early years.  it was a sort of 'background' music for parties and needed to be light and fulfil whatever dedications or purposes it was written for.  byt he time you get to chopin - artists are expressing moods and light/dark qualities that were shades of self-indulgence to the baroque and classical artists, imo.

from my perspective, i think that earlier centuries of music expressed a reverence for God (as with bach, haydn, mozart, and to me, also beethoven).  i tried playing a beethoven sonata for church one time ,though, and it didn't go over well with the person in charge of music.  he thought it was too moody or contemplative and a more humanistic type of music.  to me, i was thinking something different and really did try to play it with something better in mind.  nowdays, with the many diversions we have from our creator - there's nothing better, imo, that practicing piano and using it as a sort of psychological healer (although i think He is the best healer - and i personally realize that i can overdo practice just like anything else in life).  we can get in tune with our emotions and express them non-violently, or i suppose violently if one must.  but, noone gets hurt.  the piano is used. and, we feel better afterwards.  many times i've gone to practice feeling one way or another - and by the end of practice i feel mentally balanced again.  it sort of helps me express things i can't tell anyone or don't want to bother telling anyone.  also, when you practice playing things as you want to hear it sound - you start to focus on not only what you are expressing, but how to do it effectively and you get sidetracked from feeling things intensely.  sometimes if i have really intense feelings - it balances them and i don't feel like i need to have some other kind of aphrodisiac.  piano is an aphrodesiac to me. 

[pianistimo]

i guess the issue also brings up virtuosity.  in the classical era it was 'guarded.'  it was the expected runs and trills, etc.  but nothing compared to chopin/liszt.  when the humanistic era ran it's course - we went from playing for God - to the aristocracy- to playing for ourselves.  it's not evil, in itself.  but, imo, if overdone leads to a sort of self-worship and glorification.  like we can do this really well - but in the end -what matters?  loving other people or loving piano (inanimate).  btw, i am not anti-virtuosity.  but, i feel that if something is played with musicality and virtuosity it can be for the the glory of God as well as ourselves.  if a person only identifies themselves as a pianist and nothing else - it seems a shallow existence.

i think humility is a misunderstood term. to me, it doesn't mean that one goes around avoiding virtuosity.  i think very great musicans have been humble.  perhaps the more one gets past certain pianistic road blocks - many avenues open up and there is less competition because one realizes that each person (musician) is so different and has a unique contribution.  beethoven saw this as the 'brotherhood of man.'

[zheer]

  Liszt, Chopin,Beethoven , Rachmaninoff ,Brahms were composers who expressed their thoughts , emotions things that were going on in their lives through music, as pianists we often react to music because we can connect on some level, we have had countless threads on this forum about what do you play when sad, what do you play when happy, what do you play when angry and we each had a piece we loved to play when a life event made us sad, angry ect, hence the very strong and obvious link between our life event and music.
   I guess some may find this hard to understand, i dont the link between the world we live in and music is as clear as night and day.

[zheer]

  if a person only identifies themselves as a pianist and nothing else - it seems a shallow existence.

  Rispect.

[pianistimo]

i liked your point about the 'link' between the world we live in and the spiritual.  in fact, quite a few musicians would probably admit to feeling some supernatural (at times) encouragement to their music.  we have haydn on one side and paganini on the other.  of course, not at all times did either one completely adhere to one side.  but, in general, paganini is known for a sort of demonic virtuosity that one gets when one sells one's soul to the devil.  maybe he's gotten a bad rap over the years and it was all practice.  but, there are certain performances you never forget and you just kinda wonder.  i like to devote my music to God so people don't think i'm doing voodoo.

[dnephi]

  Rispect.

Respect.

The massive generalization that all people who live in America care only in self-indulgence and glorification is a very incorrect idea, fueled by such media as MTV, which is the only American tv show available in many countries throughout the world.  That's not how life is, and that's not how we live it.  To claim that Americans are all like our politicians would be quite false considering how much many Americans hate them.  And, I admit, it's quite true that many people who live in America only have a superficial understanding of their existance and therefore only care for personal satisfaction, even more so than the UK. 

But there is a Zion in the midst of Babylon.

Respect, in spite of disrespect.

Daniel

P.S.: I spent my early childhood in Hiroshima, Japan and Shanghai, China. I know how these people live and I respect that.  A life built on personal gratification, as well as the society, will surely fail. I suppose from your attitude that you agree.