Why so few female composers?there

[sinspawnammes]

It's a question I've always asked myself.  I'm sure that, in the 1700s, the girls in the family weren't expected to go to conservatories, but it's still surprising that there are so few works by female composers in the mainstream classical repertoire.  I suppose Clara Schumann and Mozart's sister have some works here and there, but you don't hear them ever.

[pianistimo]

not this again!  we just listed about 1000 female composers in a similar thread.  go eat some beef and stop whining.  if men have the majority - why complain if you are a man.  i mean, if it was a woman starting this thread - she might have a complaint.  the problem with some female compositions is that they are not virtuosic enough for men.  cecile chaminade is not seen on that many recital programs.  i shall think of her next time i plan a program.

oh.  and amy beach has a really great piano concerto.

[shoenberg3]

Not a male chauvinist by any means, but different genders do different things better.

[prometheus]

Gender oppression.

[pianistimo]

different.  not better.  what if i said i liked cecile chaminade's works better than liszt's.  i do not always feel this whirlwind of lust, twirling from my ankles to my head when i play the piano.  i do not wish to come out and start undulating at the piano.  but, i enjoy people who enjoy playing liszt and i can't say that i don't appreciate the occasional 'let's get transcendental.'  cecile chaminade is very straightforward (as with schumann).  they are light pieces and probably thought of more as drawing room entertainment of the time.  now, amy beach makes me feel more intensely a harmonic artistry going on.  like a light show or something. 

i suppose women's most obvious contribution to composition is being the inspiration behind it.  if most men are composing with sex on their minds - then, it is a sort of description pianistically of the last 'incident' they had.  for women, more composed and calm about things - it is simply a stating of the obvious.  this is a piece of music, not a thing to get all excited about.  give a woman a very emotional piece of music - and you will find that you will have a more clear and concise interpretation of it.  for one thing.  women are more honest.  men, once they get going on a transcendental piece- start imagning themselves in a bigger and bigger situation.  it gets blown out of proportion and ends up ending with fireworks and skyrockets - whereas the feminine interpretation would end with a happy ending and that's that.

[shoenberg3]

Gender oppression.

Disagreed. Plenty of great and renowned women writers.

[prometheus]

Often under male synonyms. And most of them only started during the romantic age.

[shoenberg3]

Often under male synonyms. And most of them only started during the romantic age.

Few points:

1) Name woman composers back then with works under male synonym.
2) There are barely any female composers now; that is certainly not the case in literature.

[jre58591]

Often under male synonyms. And most of them only started during the romantic age.

haha i hope you mean pseudonyms.

oh.  and amy beach has a really great piano concerto.

i disagree. i listened to it and it seemed to go noweher, along with beach's otehr works that i have heard. i feel the same way about the other female composers' works that i have heard. maybe my mind is sorta forcing me to not like them, sorta like subconscious sexism. also, its probably the lack of virtuosity that gets to me too, in most cases, although sophie eckhardt-gramatté's works can get furious at some points. but like i said, i feel a lot of it seems to go nowhere.

[shoenberg3]

haha i hope you mean pseudonyms.

damn damn damn! computer games really kill my brain cells.

[prometheus]

Of course I meant to use 'pseudonyms.'


My point was that there were no female composers in the 1600's that 'made it'. There probably were some but there wasn't a market for them.

Today there are. But today most composers don't become famous.

As for authors that used preudonyms, George Sand is an example.

[jre58591]

As for authors that used preudonyms, George Sand is an example.

haha you may need to take a rest from typing for a while. 

[shoenberg3]

Of course I meant to use 'pseudonyms.'


My point was that there were no female composers in the 1600's that 'made it'. There probably were some but there wasn't a market for them.

Today there are. But today most composers don't become famous.

As for authors that used preudonyms, George Sand is an example.

OK you are going on tangents here; you neither attempted to disprove my points nor prove your own. That's fine with me, but I am slightly confused.

[shoenberg3]

AJHJAHAHAHH i just realized that i unconsciously repeated what promethous said -- synonyms. But we both got what we were talking about.

[desordre]

 Hi there!
 I think there are a lot of possible causes, but first of all, 'till the 20th century was almost impossible to a woman get an artistic career. In the last century, as well, there were many cultures where women should have a domestic life (the old-fashioned way: don't work, don't earn money, take care alone of the house-husband-children, etc). However, there are many female composers that composed music of high artistry. Clara Schumann, that you quoted, is an example. Fanny Mendelssohn, another. The great question to myself, anyway, is why their music is so little played yet. I rather believe that it is due to ignorance, but sometimes I think that must exist yet some prejudice.
 In the 20th century the examples are various: Nadia Boulanger, Madeleine Tailleferre, Rebecca Clarke, Elisabeth Lutyens, Sally Beamish, Judith Weir, Madeleine Dring, Grace Williams, Grazyna Bacewicz, Sofia Gubaidulina, Galina Ustvolskaya, Pauline Oliveros, Lina Pires de Campos, Ana Torres, Teresinha de Rogatis. As usual, a very personal and incomplete list: just a few names whose music I know or like.
 Of course, in the early music field you have some women that must be mentioned, for instance: Francesca Caccini, Barbara Strozzi, the trobairitz (Comtessa de Dia, in particular), and Hildegard von Bingen. Again, the list is far bigger than that.
 Best wishes!

[pianistimo]

i don't really think of composers in terms of gender.  i listen to a piece and sometimes am not really sure of the gender at all.  women have the capabilities to be just as passionate as men composing and playing - but in many instances that i have seen (with performance) the likelihood is that the women will give you what they think the composer wanted to hear vs what the personal intense feelings that a man transfers into the piece immediately.  maybe it's a time constraint thing.  get it done.  get the practice done.  get the recital done.  just get it done.  women can learn a lot of repertoire and have amazing dexterity sometimes.  transparency is really a step beyond the usual 'filters' that women put up.  maybe modesty.  maybe less risk taking?  i don't know.  it is a struggle for a woman to compete in the 'let your feelings all out' on the stage.  i enjoy 'telling a story'  but if i thought it was my story - i'd want the audience smaller and hand chosen.  to tell a personal story to 300 people is wild.  but, i suppose the more one become familiar as how it feels to be an artist, to spontaneously feel and transmit sound so that others feel the same - is really a consumate thing for both sexes.  perhaps easier for men?

[prometheus]

OK you are going on tangents here; you neither attempted to disprove my points nor prove your own. That's fine with me, but I am slightly confused.

I don't know any female composers from the older times.

I think the lack of females during the days of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven is of a different nature as the 'apparent lack' of female composers today.

So asking me to name female composers with pseudonyms is meaningless. And I don't know any of them anyway. I said that female composers weren't accepted by society. Then you countered by claiming female authors were accepted. But I agrued against that. So if we  follow that logic it doesn't automatically follow there also were female composers with pseudonyms.


Why aren't there any female composers today, now they do have the change? Maybe females aren't appealed to composing because all famous composers are male. Social trends can go in circles like this. But then I am sure there are some out there. It is just that most people don't care at all about new music.

[prometheus]

haha you may need to take a rest from typing for a while. 

You are right. It is late here. That must be it. I also saw that I had typed 'argeud' instead of 'agrued' but then both looked suspicious.

Ooh, someone mentioned Clara Schumann. Isn't it argued by some that in reality some of her husbands works were largely written by her?

Plus we have Maria von Weber and Camille Saint-Saëns.

[shoenberg3]

I don't know any female composers from the older times.

I think the lack of females during the days of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven is of a different nature as the 'apparent lack' of female composers today.

So asking me to name female composers with pseudonyms is meaningless. And I don't know any of them anyway. I said that female composers weren't accepted by society. Then you countered by claiming female authors were accepted. But I agrued against that. So if we  follow that logic it doesn't automatically follow there also were female composers with pseudonyms.


Why aren't there any female composers today, now they do have the change? Maybe females aren't appealed to composing because all famous composers are male. Social trends can go in circles like this. But then I am sure there are some out there. It is just that most people don't care at all about new music.

I do not wish to create hostility here, but your posts are da mn confusing.

[jre58591]

Plus we have Maria von Weber and Camille Saint-Saëns.

hahahahaha you do need sleep.

[shoenberg3]

 

Maria and Camille frown upon you.

[nanabush]

lmao, you thought von Weber and Saint- Saens were female?

[desordre]

(...)My point was that there were no female composers in the 1600's that 'made it'. There probably were some but there wasn't a market for them. (...)

I don't know any female composers from the older times. (...)

(...)Plus we have Maria von Weber and Camille Saint-Saëns.

Dear Prometheus:
 Please, first accept my apology. Why are you trying to write about something you know so very little? I really don't want to be rude with you, but your arguments are getting almost non sense.
Call it a day, and don't make a bigger mess. 
 Best wishes!

[prometheus]

lmao, you thought von Weber and Saint- Saens were female?

Well, I guess now people will doubt if this was joke or not. I geuss that isn't important since it was funny.

PS. I didn't remove 'Carl' for nothing.

[brewtality]

carol maria von weber 

[dnephi]

Ooh, someone mentioned Clara Schumann. Isn't it argued by some that in reality some of her husbands works were largely written by her? 

No.  Her works are decent, but not too good.  She never reaches the emotional intensity that Schumann finds, and she denounced nearly every work that we see as great today as the worst she had ever heard.

Thalberg says "Clara's concerto is better than her husband's."
A. She wrote two of them.
B. They aren't that good.
C. Schumann's has some brilliance and meaning to it.

Now Schumann won't be as popular as some because he is not as accesible.  His Kreisleriana is an amazing work but it won't be appreciated by the public so much.  His Fantasie is of such profundity that it has been said that, "No quotes set forth its greatness." It is a Himalayan peak of the literature that all small-souled men should avoid.

Just to end the Schumann bashing.

P.S. (If you don't think Schumann is any good, I highly recommend the E-flat quintet, 2nd movement.  I envy any of you a first hearing.)

[thierry13]

It's a question I've always asked myself.  I'm sure that, in the 1700s, the girls in the family weren't expected to go to conservatories, but it's still surprising that there are so few works by female composers in the mainstream classical repertoire.  I suppose Clara Schumann and Mozart's sister have some works here and there, but you don't hear them ever.

I think girls miss something to compose. I don't know ... I saw the works of Clara Schumann at the music library the other and wow ... it sounded good ... but OMG it didn't even come close to be as great as any of the other male compositors around her, and Clara Schumann ad to be one of the best female musician at that time.

[pianistimo]

would it really impress you if there were more female composers (as there are today?)  i think they are hidden from view as to not 'compete.'  which isn't really their intention anyways -but to make it plain from my perspective - as a woman - that i think we are more appreciated for our ability to 'make music' rather than write it.  i've seen very few women try to play a composed piece or sing a song of their own composition to a loved one.  women are like cats.  you come to them.  they don't come to you.  if you want an especially musical, composing, sort of artist woman - you're going to have to create her in cyber space or start looking up composers that are female and neglected.  i believe there was a very young female who won a composition prize (not long ago) for 'kalydiscope' or some such name - and after listening to the composition thought she did a pretty good job.

now, leucippus may argue that women should put in just as much effort as men when it comes to trying to impress the other gender.  well, why bother if it is unnecessary to obtain the same results.  men would have to sort of 'go on strike' and remove any sort of incentives - which would be really hard to do for more than three days - and besides women can cry and get it instantly anyways. 

do not think we have come down this many millenia to be fooled into doing more work than necessary to survive and thrive.

[pianistimo]

try googling 'rachel portman'

www.filmmusic.dk/rachdisc.html

or for more women composers:
www.ambache.co.uk/women.htm#General

this list may shock you:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers

granted they are not all piano (pianist) composers - but composers in any case!

also, don't forget jazz pianists such as hilton ruiz and jessica williams

[invictious]

Do you want to hear a joke? Sure.

Female Rights