Math/Logic and Music

[klick]

My computers teacher thinks that my music skills have helped me develop my logical thinking skills, improving my math and computers and sciences skills. He says that he knows many people that play music and are also good at logic in math and computers etc.

Wondering if it is true that music helps develop logical thinking, or it is just a coincidence. (Curious)

Klick

[leucippus]

Wondering if it is true that music helps develop logical thinking, or it is just a coincidence. (Curious)

Personally I think it is probably the reverse.  I think many people who have logical minds are attracted to music.  Especially those who are attracted by written music.

I don't think that being attracted to music in general is any indication of being logical.  I know a lot of people who are really into music.  Yet many of them are quite illogical in their thinking. 

So you were probably just logical minded and that might have been part of what drew you to music.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

My father is probably the most logical person you can find. He is practically not attracted to music iin any degree.

I am quite an "illogical" person, if you will. I love music.

In my opinion, it is about preference. Music is music.

[leucippus]

My father is probably the most logical person you can find. He is practically not attracted to music in any degree.

I might add to this with my own experience.  I've been very logical my entire life.  I've been heavily into computer programming, mathematics, and physics.  And like DS's father I was never really attracted to music much for the bulk of my life.

In my teens I was attracted to rock & roll, but I think that was mostly just the beat of the music that drew me in.  Plus maybe some of the lyrics and the romantic implications of the songs.

As I grew older I fell away from music altogether save for playing a little bit of classical guitar as a pastime.  I never even listened to radio music.  Not even in the car driving back and forth to work.

When I finally did become interested in music, I think it was a mathematical appeal.  Partly to the sheet music, but also to the "mechanical" aspects of playing the instruments (piano, violin and guitar).  I found classical music appealing because of it's mechanical or mathematical allure.  Although everyone may not see that in the music.

But then Ironically, after I started playing the instruments then I began to become interested in the music just for the music.  I moved from Baroque period stuff to becoming interested in more romantic stuff like Debussy's works.

So I think I came to the actually musical aspect of music from the long way around.  Also, now that I'm learning to play Debussy's pieces I no longer see it from a mathematical vantage point.  I now just see it as music.

I think there can be a mathematical appeal to written score, and possible the art of composing, as well as in the technical art of actually producing music on an instrument.  Although, just because that mathematical aspect is there, I don't think that's what attracts most musicians to music.  I think most musicians are just attracted to the music itself for the sake of the music.  In fact, those musicians are probably the better ones as far as pure musicality is concerned.

Although, I think Debussy himself used some mathematics in his music.  Wasn't he the one that wrote a piece based on the ratio of the golden mean?  I don't think he used mathematics in all his pieces though.

[chopinisque]

My computers teacher thinks that my music skills have helped me develop my logical thinking skills, improving my math and computers and sciences skills. He says that he knows many people that play music and are also good at logic in math and computers etc.

Wondering if it is true that music helps develop logical thinking, or it is just a coincidence. (Curious)

Klick

Time to put my thinking skills from A levels to good use.  Hehe.

Your teacher's reasoning is flawed.  He falsely assumes that because the proficiency in the three different subjects is present within you, one has caused the other.  However, there is no evidence to suggest that.  Just because someone is tall and smart, it does not mean that he is smart because he is tall.  More evidence is needed.  Next, he claims that he knows many people who are good at music and logic.  However, that does not support his conclusion that music has made you more logical.  It merely suggests that people with both proficiencies are quite commonplace.  Or he might know a lot of people.  Furthermore, he assumes that music and maths and computer sciences involve the same 'logic'.  It is a reasonable assumption but is open to doubt.

Thanks for reading.  Bye bye.
 

[nicco]

It recently said in the newspaper that kids who are exposed to music and study it at an early age have a much easier time understanding math and logics then kids without music.

"yay for us"

[netzow]

My Piano teacher has a masters degree in math. She  thinks that there is some connection, however I'm not sure how big-how sure she is. The way to find out is to make a poll asking piano streeters if they are good at math I guess. Also is it people who read music or people who play music. I know a very talanted Musician who cannot read music (pity) he stinks at math. I mean needed tutoring to get through algebra. So that would be the opposite example. Imo  It might help to opea better musician but that does not mean it prohibits. Just my Opinion though i'm no expert.

[invictious]

I actually find people who love classical music, are very proficient at math and adept with computers, probably due to the linking between the 2 hemispheres of the brain, which is essential for math AND computers.

[dnephi]

Math Geniuses are often very good at music performance.

It's true, from personal experience  .

[leucippus]

It recently said in the newspaper that kids who are exposed to music and study it at an early age have a much easier time understanding math and logics then kids without music.

"yay for us"

It's probably also true that kids who study anything at an early age are better at math and logic.  It's simply better to use your brain than not. 

Of course, I'm not talking here about studying mindless things.  It takes some thinking to learn to read musical notation.  But learning anything that requires a similar level of thinking should have a positive effect.  So it probably doesn't really have anything specfic to do with music other than the simple fact that music is a popluar thing for young kids to learn.

[quantum]

I can somewhat relate.  I took interest in both music and computers at an early age, but never thought of their connection until recently.  I have found that both my intersts in music and logical thinking tend to compliment and support each other. 

I use logic to help judge the emotional evocation that music provides the listener, and use computers to help simulate a human's emotional playing through adjusting numerical parameters. 

[debussy symbolism]

The golden mean you are referring to is used in "L'apres-midi d'un faune", in which he assimilates the traditional "authentic cadence" into this composition, only without the dominant to tonic, but a tritone.

Concerning the topic, in my opinion, one factor is unequivacally true: that it is preference. Let's look at famous mathematicians and scientists that also were musicians to some degree. We get a whole list, ranging from DaVinci, to Saint-Saens and to Xenakis(if you will). However, on the other list we get a whole other personas who were in no way coalesced with music. One example that comes to mind is Darwin. A brilliant man, had a pleasant time listening to music, but could not only not sing it, but couldn't distinguish it from other melodies. So you see, there is no direct correlation between "math" and music. My mother and grandmother are very musical, but lack in mathematical reasoning. My father and grandfather aren't musical, but have mathematical thinking. I am not mathematical, so I don't relate to my father as much.

This observance leads me to a conjecture: Preferance.

[debussy symbolism]

By claiming that logic aids music, it is also a plausible assumption that math should aid art, or poetry.

I would like to bring another example to attention. A famous artist, Salvador Dali. Salvador dali had an interest in science as a child, always curious about "how the would works." In his paintings later in life, he tried(and managed) to portray atomic science into his paintings, resulting in many painting depicting atom's relation to religion. Dali was very intrigued in architecture and it's laws, and henceforth, also tried to etch these principles into his paintings, namely those of "classical era". From what I have read in Dali's biography, Dali was not affiliated with music, given the verisimilitude of the press. The press could of course be wrong, but we will take it's information for granted, in favor of plausible argument. Again, this demonstrates that any one that is good at math can be good at something else, and vice versa.

[zheer]

  My sister is very good at maths, infact she studied something like rocket science at at a Uni which is regarded the Best medical and engineering institution in the UK, however it will take her 10 years to learn haw to play a simple melody on a piano.
  

[debussy symbolism]

I can relate to you Zheer, because my sister also is very adroit with computers, but seems like not without a bad ear. I am not saying that she is tune deaf, but she isn't really top notch. Again, the preferance notion springs up.

[zheer]

  I dont see the connection between maths/logic and music, but i do see the connection betweem music and language or creative writing.

[debussy symbolism]

Yes! Me too. I love to write, I love to write poetry( I guess that is a form of writing. ). I also love to otherwise learn. I wish I could draw though.

My sister can draw, so does that apply to the thought of math helping other things? It probably doesn't, and if it is, then its probably just a different skill or aptitude.

[klick]

  I dont see the connection between maths/logic and music, but i do see the connection betweem music and language or creative writing.

Well I can not write and essay or poetry or even a flowing e-mail if my life depended on it. I geuss that maybe it just happens that people like my teacher, assume that since they know a handful or people good with logic skills, it is assumed that they help eachother out.

I wonder if there a university study on this anywhere?


Klick

[leucippus]

I wonder if there a university study on this anywhere?

There probably are studies on it.  There seems to be studies on just about anything you can dream up.

I'm sure there are some connections between music and math/logic.  I suppose a lot of that will depend on the people making the studies and how they view these subjects.

For example, for many mathematicans mathematics is all about forms and relationships (not so much about the idea of quanities or numbers).  Well, music is certainly about forms and relationships between pitches, so there's a huge connection from that vantage point.

On the other hand, if you view math/logic from the more technical aspect of the more rigid formal logic of P implies Q.  Then the connection may evaporate.  I don't think music is bound by that kind of rigid logic.  I think it's more of an art form. 

You can probably write music that has some logical principles to it.  But that really wouldn't be a charateristic of music in general.  That would really just be a composition that was composed using logical principles as a guide.

In other words, there may be musical pieces that have been composed by composers who were driven by logical principles when they wrote their compositions.  But that doesn't meant that there is anything inherently logical about music itself.

In fact, if studies were done what would they be studying?  Music.  Or musical compositions?  Any conclusions from such a study would necessarily be a very controversial.  Is music logical, or are just certain compositions logical?

[prometheus]

I think music just stimulates the brain, in what what I do not know. But this is personal experience and thus probably totally irrelevant.

In my experience music totally reshaped my 'brain'.


But then music may just be an intellectual activity as any other. And they help the brain regardless of if it is chess, math or music.

[pianistimo]

what if music had the capability to sort of 'take over' all areas of the brain instead of a certain portion.  so that, if we had an mri scan or one of those color/heat/activity sensors - musicians brains would be really red all over (unless blue is the activity color) and basically filtering out any other form of stimulation.

my children seem to 'need' music to do homework.  unfortunately, it is not classical music.

[johnny-boy]

I think Promey is on the right track. Music is a mind stimulant.

The math in music is very elementary. There is a basic structure in music that has a mathematic symmetry, but the bottom line is that music mostly emanates from the emotions. 

John

[prometheus]

Music is an interesting combination of temporal organisation on a quasi-lingual basis, meaning that music is 'logically' ordered like we would order sounds into language, emotion and creativity.

So maybe it helps the both halves of the brain intergrate with each other.


As for the Mozart effect, it is sometimes claimed that listening to Mozart, or Mozartlike music, increases the IQ of Spatial-temporal reasoning abilities. Again, temporal organisation of music or language, but also visualisation of patterns.

So seeing patters in space and time and be able to reason based on being able to visualise and organise them.

One study claimed that when you listen to the music your IQ goes up with 10 points for 10 minutes. So this is a temporary effect. Long terms effect are always harder to get research on.

This effect and the research that supports it is highly disputed. Interesting for me wpuld be; What effect or element of Mozart's music creates this effect? I mean, it's not the fact that Mozart wrote the music but the nature of the music itself.

Of course Mozart's music is work of a genius but it is also childish, though not in the immature sense of the world. I would imagine that Bach or Sorabji has a stronger effect. Same with bebop jazz music. Highly complex and organised music. Or maybe it is the simplistic elegance, eventhough this seems counter-intuitive to me. It would be very interesting to me to know the answer of this.