am i that bad ?:(

[hodi]

well
i had a lesson with a new teacher since my last one left to study in england.
she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(
she still thinks i have a good talent for it.
but now she wants me to play "june" from seasons by tchaikovsky
and she says my musicality is near zero or zero
here is a link to some records: scriabin 11/6, some of schumann 12/2 and mendelssohn op.28 first movement (the fantasy is a very old recording i play it better now)
i really don't know what to do
should i start over? am i THAT bad?
https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=DBBD9FE202ABFE35

[gonzalo]

well
i had a lesson with a new teacher since my last one left to study in england.
she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(
she still thinks i have a good talent for it.
but now she wants me to play "june" from seasons by tchaikovsky
and she says my musicality is near zero or zero
here is a link to some records: scriabin 11/6, some of schumann 12/2 and mendelssohn op.28 first movement (the fantasy is a very old recording i play it better now)
i really don't know what to do
should i start over? am i THAT bad?
https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=DBBD9FE202ABFE35

What did you play for her?

[hodi]

What did you play for her?

what's in the zip file is what i played for her

[pianistimo]

if you have trust in a teacher - they will get you up to speed on whatever items you have skipped over in previous lessons.  if she has a name and good students, do what she says!  record the lessons or write down what she says so you can use it for future reference in your own playing and teaching.

[hodi]

if you have trust in a teacher - they will get you up to speed on whatever items you have skipped over in previous lessons.  if she has a name and good students, do what she says!  record the lessons or write down what she says so you can use it for future reference in your own playing and teaching.

she has name and 2 of her students are excellent concert pianists
but i dunno, to leave all what i have started now? scriabin sonata no.2, franck op.18, mendelssohn op.54 and other stuff.. to study compositions which are quite easy?

[Kassaa]

hodi.justgotowned.com

Did you have a bad day or did you think everything was going well? A teacher can't know a student after one lesson. Do everything she says and prove her wrong!

[counterpoint]

she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(

Sounds as if she wants to demoralize you 

You're playing is pretty good, technically and musically

I don't know what to say about it. Perhaps you will have some lessons with her and
do, what she expects you to do. But if you are not convinced of what she drives you to,
you could be self-confident enough to look for another teacher, that matches better to you.

[pianowolfi]

The problem is, we now know a little bit of your playing, but we don't know who your teacher is. Because that's really important. I've experienced this situation more than once. Always I benefitted from the "new start". This will last for a half year or so. Step by step she will let you play more demanding pieces. If she's a cruel teacher and only wants to demoralize you you will notice it after three or four lessons. Then don't hesitate to look for a different teacher. As far as i can say your playing is not bad but lacks of precision, mainly rhythmically. I would suggest a lot of slow practising. Be careful with every note, love every note and fill it with expression. If that teacher is good, you might learn from her to play more plastically and also with a broader dynamic range. You're definitely not unmusical. You have musical feeling. Btw for some strange reason i liked the Mendelssohn most.

[hodi]

The problem is, we now know a little bit of your playing, but we don't know who your teacher is. Because that's really important. I've experienced this situation more than once. Always I benefitted from the "new start". This will last for a half year or so. Step by step she will let you play more demanding pieces. If she's a cruel teacher and only wants to demoralize you you will notice it after three or four lessons. Then don't hesitate to look for a different teacher. As far as i can say your playing is not bad but lacks of precision, mainly rhythmically. I would suggest a lot of slow practising. Be careful with every note, love every note and fill it with expression. If that teacher is good, you might learn from her to play more plastically and also with a broader dynamic range. You're definitely not unmusical. You have musical feeling. Btw for some strange reason i liked the Mendelssohn most.

well, my teacher is quite famous in my town...
there are 2 other problems
i'm 19, i studied for about 5 years, maybe it's too late for a new start?
i'm in the army now, although i'm almost everyday home i don't have endless time to practice

is it too late?

[leucippus]

I don't believe in having a teacher beyond the most rudimentary basics.

Especially one's that harp about musicality. 

Everyone has their own idea of what good musicality is.

If she doesn't like your style of musicality I'd fire her.

I hear performances all the time from "great" and popular pianists.  Some I like, some I don't.

Musicality is totally SUBJECTIVE!

Down with teachers who force their own personal taste for musicality onto their students!

Yuck! Yuck! Yuck!

[pianowolfi]

well, my teacher is quite famous in my town...
there are 2 other problems
i'm 19, i studied for about 5 years, maybe it's too late for a new start?
i'm in the army now, although i'm almost everyday home i don't have endless time to practice

is it too late?

no it's not too late! I think, as mentioned above, that the new start will last maximally half a year. You may really benefit from that.

[rc]

The teacher seems reputable,  best give her the benefit of the doubt and see where that leads.  It sounds like your new teacher might be a super-picky perfectionist type, and I mean that in a GOOD way.  A teacher should hold a student to the highest standards, else you're just beating around the bush.

I think as students we're often guilty of playing beyond our limits, acceptably so, but not achieving 'great'.  That's what the easier compositions are, a chance to work on the musicality aspect without having to work so much on just getting the notes out.

is it too late?

For what?

[rc]

Musicality is totally SUBJECTIVE!

I don't agree with your point.  Of course there's subjectivity in any art, but absolute subjectivity goes too far.  It's not totally subjective, it's not hard to imagine an interpretation that's so ridiculous that one would really have to delude themselves to say it was good, but to claim total subjectivity would legitimize it.  I don't believe that.

This is a tough topic, but I believe there are objective elements in music.  Not black/white, good/bad, but simply to achieve different effects.  Increasing speed, volume and pitch will generate a more exciting effect, and when you look at a piece of music what you're trying to do is determine the effect that's the composer wants, and there are certain things that just make sense in context.

A good way to put it is that musicality is having good reasons for your interpretive choices.  I don't accept total subjectivity as a good reason.

[leucippus]

A good way to put it is that musicality is having good reasons for your interpretive choices.  I don't accept total subjectivity as a good reason.

The only reason that I need to justify my interpretive choice is my own personal whim.  If it feels right to me, that's it.  Period.  I need no other reason.

I think it was Artur Rubinstein who said, "You play what you feel in here (pointing to his heart), the audience either likes it or they don't" then he turned his palms face up as if to gesture, "no more need be said"

I also choose to live by that philosophy.  The audience either likes it or they don't.  To me this is the essence of true art.

[pianistimo]

knowing HOW to play 'what's in here' is another matter, though, imo.  if you want a career in music - you have to do the time.  otherwise, you're just another pop star - or be-bop artist.  unless...you have a lot of innate knowledge, discipline, and perserverance there's little chance (without a mentor) that you'll go that far.  (i'm not saying you - but i'm saying the average piano student).

my playing is much tighter than 2-3 years ago.  refined.  of course, practicing a lot more hours would help - but right now i have limited time.  but, i would say those few years of lessons were of immense help.  and it's never too late.  i'm 45 now.  i think that i'm still glad to have had help.  basically, i had to relearn a few things too.  to keep my hands flatter.  to massage the keyboard and not bash it.  to pedal more efficiently.  to play more relaxed and efficiently.  to listen to more concerts and know what to listen for (ie background noise from too loud of bass - causing reverb on recordings).  for tunings.  for carefulness and attention to detail.  for trusting my instincts sometimes, trusting the teacher other times, and not being too reliant on the teacher for everything.  to ask good questions.  to be a thinking person.  to question and think outside the box.  and, also to realize that even every person's worst performance they can learn from and do better next time. 

sometimes it is discouraging to see someone SO much better - but in an odd way it is three times as encouraging to find out what they went through to get there.  if you ask any great pianist - i bet they will tell you they went through a lot of trouble.  not just practice.  life circumstances.  stuff.  and, also, they didn't just have it handed to them either.  they had to work for it - and sometimes just grab it (the knowledge).  some were geniuses to begin with - but that doesn't eliminate the inevitable circumstances of hardship.  my story isn't half as hard as my teacher's probably - but at 45, i already had three children - the youngest no babysitter yet - and a 40+ minute car ride both ways to the uni.  i found a babysitter at one of the dorms - had her babysat for the lesson. drove home.  usually was kind of exhausted - but managed to practice most days.  even 1 hour of practice is better than nothing.  and on the weekends i would practice more. 

[pianistimo]

about the 'too late' part.  this is an interesting article entitled 'musical fossils'

www.musicalfossils.com/fmind.html

i thought the 'condescendingly sympathetic' part was funny.  (it's under fossil bodies)

[leucippus]

knowing HOW to play 'what's in here' is another matter, though, imo.  

I agree.   Teachers who teach technical virtuosity are great!

Teach me how to press the keys.
Teach me technicalities.

Teach me all fancy tricks
that will make my right and left hands mix

Teach me how to play real smooth
so I can play the pieces that will soothe

Teach me how to play in phase
at least a dozen different ways

Teach me how to play real fast
and teach me how to make it last

But when it comes to playing music
I refuse to hear clichés

You can teach me how to push the keys
but don't teach me how to phrase!


(P.S. Some people want a music teacher.  That's fine.  I don't.  A piano teacher, maybe.)

[pianistimo]

i understand what you are saying.  i don't hear brahms in the same way - and put a lot more rubato than probably necessary - but it makes my heart feel like i've said it the way i feel it.  yes!  phrasing and speed and dynamics is really one's own interpretation after all is said and done.  we don't want to be carbon copies.

[leahcim]

The only reason that I need to justify my interpretive choice is my own personal whim.  If it feels right to me, that's it.  Period.  I need no other reason.

I think it was Artur Rubinstein who said....

Yes, but as rc says there are objective aspects to it. The composers' markings for e.g, if you want to play a piece by another composer.

Of course you can hit the piano at random, playing whatever you wish, however you wish, wearing bright yellow clothes, mirror sunglasses and while shouting "Polly!!! put the kettle on!" - I don't think anyone here would be trying to take that away by anything they suggested should be done when playing a piece of composed piano music.

If you played that in a particular way and yet had great control over the performance perhaps even showing you could play it in a different way, or a 3rd way, that'd be one thing where folk might shrug and recognise that it might be bad taste, but it's controlled bad taste.

OTOH, if it's more a "frankly, that's the way it comes out, it'll sound different the next time I play it..." then it'd just be delusion to claim that your playing style is the result of some personal whim rather than a lack of musicality and/or technical limitations in the playing.

I think there's a danger in using the words of virtuoso players to justify something that is just poor playing. Horowitz says "exercises? shmexercies" or something in an interview, and so some misguided dude does just that. But the end result is Horowitz's playing is good, his sucks...because Horowitz wasn't saying "Don't practise..."

e.g  "wrong notes don't matter" is a similar example - the odd flub perhaps, where the pianist otherwise would play the note(s) correctly, is aware what the right note(s) are and recognises that they played the wrong note(s).

But you see folk use it to justify not even practising the right notes and to explain away the fact they didn't know what they were playing wasn't correct. At which point a maxim that is really talking about not focussing on the minutae of a great performance in the way a beautiful woman might focus on a tiny spot on her forehead, is perverted to suggest that you can thump away with abandon so long as you feel the music or play from the heart. The resulting cacaphony and wrong notes somehow excused by a virtuoso who probably isn't willing to take the credit for the results of the soundbite.

[leahcim]

well
i had a lesson with a new teacher since my last one left to study in england.
she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(
she still thinks i have a good talent for it.
but now she wants me to play "june" from seasons by tchaikovsky
and she says my musicality is near zero or zero

You don't have to start over per se. you can still play whatever you like away from her and the practise she wants you to do.

...and obviously you can't really start over, until that device from Men In Black is invented.

But, I'd say there's a chance she's right, for the simple reason that you don't know if your playing is good or not. Perhaps after a few lessons with her you'll hear the difference in your own playing [and show us with the next zip file you post here]

A lot is missing without context. I read her words in an objective way it could have been very constructive. Someone people see what she has said as demoralising, but as a piano teacher talking about your playing in a teaching situation she's in context to be honest, frank and say what is wrong with it in objective terms.

Someone saying your playing is good when it isn't is far worse. I'm constantly annoyed at people saying my playing is good for a few reasons (a) It shows, if they are knowledgable they are dishonest - and whatever reason they've chosen to be dishonest "your feelings" or whatever, they aren't helping me get better.

(b) The alternative. They really do think I'm good and that just says they are clueless about what is good and what isn't and thus they aren't able to help either by judging a piece you've been practising. Worse case, in their mind you'd been playing fur elise [or whatever] for a week, they haven't realised that on monday you couldn't play it and on Friday you could, they can't hear any difference.

Lastly, because the fact they can't tell the difference between Horowitz and me is really saying 'No big deal' to us both for the effort we put into it.  It's a bit like some here giving  constantly diminishing time to get from zero to hero "3 to 5 years" one week, then it's "1 to 3 years" as obviously piano playing has a more favourable exchange rate or something.

Then "Learn 4 pieces in month? You could learn 400 pieces IN YOUR SLEEP! You don't even need a piano. Or arms!" We all know it's bollocks, but what it is really saying is that being able to play is no big deal. If you can do it, well, you didn't have to do much. Whatever you do next week, "well you could already play the piano so..."

If Chang had read his book instead of writing it, and gone to bed then he'd be a pianist, he just doesn't want to be one, preferring to put the effort into writing so we can

If she were laughing doing "yo playing so bad..." jokes like those fat jokes then yeah, walk away, but if she was objective, I'd take the lessons and her advice for what it is - probably good for your playing.

[leucippus]

If you played that in a particular way and yet had great control over the performance perhaps even showing you could play it in a different way, or a 3rd way, that'd be one thing where folk might shrug and recognise that it might be bad taste, but it's controlled bad taste.

Well, surely you can allow for the possibility too that the audience could possibly rise to a standing ovation proclaiming that it is genuinely a wonderfully original rendition.

OTOH, if it's more a "frankly, that's the way it comes out, it'll sound different the next time I play it..." then it'd just be delusion to claim that your playing style is the result of some personal whim rather than a lack of musicality and/or technical limitations in the playing.

I agree with you there.  Just random playing is extremely risky and would mostly like result in less than desirable music most of the time.   But random playing wouldn't exactly be from the heart either.  At least I wouldn't think of it that way.

There's a particular sound I seek when I play and I continually refine toward that sound.  However, having said that, it is also quite possible to have more than one particular rendition in mind for a single piece.   But if that's the case, then each rendition of that piece would be separate, and not just played randomly. 

e.g  "wrong notes don't matter" is a similar example - the odd flub perhaps, where the pianist otherwise would play the note(s) correctly, is aware what the right note(s) are and recognises that they played the wrong note(s).

Wrong notes are technical errors, not merely a personal interpretation of a phrase.  Especially if they are just sloppiness, or an unwillingness to read the score correctly.  I don't support poor virtuosity.

Having said that, I do believe that an artist has the freedom to change a note here or there if he or she has a serious inclination to do so.  That's a getting into a realm of more than just mere interpretation though.  Depending on how many notes are changed it could quite literally become a whole "variation on theme" (i.e. the pianist becomes a composer)

I've actually thought about this quite a lot.  If I take a piece and rewrite it to the point where everyone is basically complaining that it's not the original piece, then I could actually claim to be the composer of this new piece that it has become.  After all, who can argue that it's plagiarism if they were already arguing that it's not the original piece?

[leahcim]

Well, surely you can allow for the possibility too that the audience could possibly rise to a standing ovation proclaiming that it is genuinely a wonderfully original rendition.

Absolutely, but I doubt you'd ever need a post written in the way you did yours to justify this scenario

If you get a huge criticism that, say, you played a Mozart passage with too much pedal and too harshly, the critic, if they are convinced it was deliberate can only then put it down to bad taste.

Classical music is too finite, too well known and too well studied for you to get much in the way of a positive critic if your way of playing it is different from the established way. It'll be called "wrong" and it seems unlikely that you'll find something better than anyone in the last 250 years has doesn't it, especially if folk are sitting there listening for Mozart's composition.

Improv and composing are there for people who want creative freedom, but call a spade a spade, as you say you could call it your own piece [you could say it's based on blah blah.. if you want] that's gotta be better than trying to convince that your swinging rhythm of Bach's Inventions is ok because it's all just subjective

Wrong notes are technical errors, not merely a personal interpretation of a phrase. 

Are they?

This idea that there's "technical" and "musical" one that you can be objective about and the other that's totally subjective seems a fallacy.

The idea that a "wrong note" is different from a "wrong dynamic", "wrong tempo" or "wrong phrasing" seems flawed. It's only really limitations in the way that music is scored that allow a looser interpretation of some aspects of a piece compared to others. If you're looking from the composers pov, his intentions, he can say "wrong note" "wrong interpretation" or whatever with equal objectivity.

If anything, the ability to "do your own thing" isn't really something you'd need to argue for or try to do, since it's inherent in the way the music is scored, it's impossible for 2 people to play a piece in the same way anyway even if they try and in a lot of cases the instrument it's being played on is significantly different from the composers.

That said, do you suppose that it's a personal whim to make it sound sloppy or sloppy playing? At the end of the day it doesn't really matter - you'd call it sloppy the same as everyone else - and the artist can complain until he is blue in the face that he does what he wants to, but lots of what RC said about the criticism his playing gets not being subjective is still true.

[ako]

well
i had a lesson with a new teacher since my last one left to study in england.
she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(
she still thinks i have a good talent for it.
but now she wants me to play "june" from seasons by tchaikovsky
and she says my musicality is near zero or zero
here is a link to some records: scriabin 11/6, some of schumann 12/2 and mendelssohn op.28 first movement (the fantasy is a very old recording i play it better now)
i really don't know what to do
should i start over? am i THAT bad?
https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=DBBD9FE202ABFE35

Hodi,

I listened to your recordings. I'm just speaking from my own experience having heard many piano students played before and not trying to be offensive to anyone involved.

Your new teacher might be harsh but I would listen to her if I were you. You do have the facility to be a good player but I think you did not have good training to put your facilities into good use. It is  not your fault. And it is not too late to "start over". 

Take a few months worth of lessons with your new teacher and record yourself again. Listen to yourself and see if you hear the difference. Of course, if your teacher is just too demeaning and rude and you just hate her, look for another one. I'm sure there are other good teachers out there.

Good luck...looking forward to hearing your recordings in a few months.

[pianowelsh]

I have studied with more than 7 teachers at a post grade 8 level and of them one could never remember my name when I went to the lesson. and 5 of the others completely wanted to strip my playing to basic and start again. I tell you what though each of the 5 had completely different views on how to play the piano.. personally with hindsight i dont think any of them were quite 100% right. At the time they were insistant you will only ever be able to play the piano if you play like me and do this! This annoyed me for years. I now basically teach myself having graduated from conservatory and am improving fast!!! In short you are probably nothing like as bad as they tell you you are. I find people tend to be overly opinionated when it comes to giving musical criticism. Huge doctrines are built around minor reservations and all of a sudden teachers are manufacturing students to play like 'mini-me's' Nothing is more vile than this. having said all that I dont know your teacher and she may well have your best interest at heart. If its really buging you talk to her about it. That will help you know.  I once got really upset in a lesson and asked my teacher 'is their anything good atall about my playing?' to which she replied 'not yet!' which I found not only extremely hurtfull and shortsighted but extremely arrogant of them (as I said this was post grade 8 and I had achieved a disctinction some years before!). Do you like the Tchaikovsky?? It could be that its the piece that isnt affording you the opportunity to show off what you can do. If she is a new teacher she may not know you well enough to see that yet.

[leucippus]

I find people tend to be overly opinionated when it comes to giving musical criticism.

I completely agree with you on this point. 

I also think there are far too many music teachers our there who are claiming to be instrument teachers.

There really is two different aspects to learning how to play an instrument.  One is technical virtuosity (i.e. learning how to actually play the instrument) and the other is musicality (making good music after you've learned how to play an instrument)

Teachers who attempt to teach both of these things simultaneously are not doing their students any favor at all.  You simply can't play well musically if you haven't yet even learned how to play technically.  A person should really have two separate teachers when learning to play an instrument.  A virtuosity teacher, and a music teacher.  And the latter should only be necessarily if the student has no sense of musicality on their own.

In short, really good instrument teachers are hard to come by.  Opinionated music critics are a dime a dozen.

I would never pay for an opinionated music critic to stand over me whilst I'm trying to learn to play the piano.  What I would pay for is a really great teacher of virtuosity.  I'll be my own music critic thank you.

[rc]

Well leucippus, I think we have some fundamentally different perspectives.  That's allowed.  We all love music and are bound to be opinionated critics in our own right

But I'm still interested in going on here, I'm not sure I really understand your POV (often it turns out two opposing arguements are really just describing the same idea in different words).

What I meant about having good reasons for interpretive choices is in a more concrete sense. For example, if asked "why did you play that section so softly?" one could give the answer "to give more contrast to the climactic section to follow", and similar reasons for every detail of a composition.  Well thought out.

Your answer leucippus, of feeling right to you being the only reason you need, brings up the deeper question, for whom do we play piano?

This is a core value of mine, that I play piano for the audience.  Meaning that my goal as a performer is to best communicate the message (emotion) of the music to a listener.  I already love the music, my goal is to share that love.  That is the compass by which I guide interpretive decisions, why I will decide to start a particular trill on the upper auxiliary, not obscure the beat with too much rubato in that particular piece, and so on...

...Always there are many different, well reasoned, ways to play something.  That is where the personality comes through, the different objectives they have in mind.  All I care is that the critic can give a reason for their criticism, that makes the criticism useful, whether you agree with it or not at least you can learn something.

The critic without reasons is a noisemaker.

[timothy42b]

I would never pay for an opinionated music critic to stand over me whilst I'm trying to learn to play the piano.  What I would pay for is a really great teacher of virtuosity.  I'll be my own music critic thank you.

This intrigues me.  I'm not sure I can agree.  I've learned more from playing with and listening to people I considered musical than technical, but with rare exceptions they've been the same people.

Are you trying to assert that you must learn technique from a master teacher, but musicality is innate?  My position would have been that musicality is harder and takes longer to learn than technique, and you are less likely to acquire it on your own.  Not that your piano teacher is always necessarily the right one to impart it, but you need to learn it somewhere, and certainly your piano teacher shouldn't neglect it. 

[timothy42b]

This is a core value of mine, that I play piano for the audience.  Meaning that my goal as a performer is to best communicate the message (emotion) of the music to a listener.  I already love the music, my goal is to share that love. 

If this is true (and I agree 100%) then there is a corollary. 

We must perform, even if not frequently.  Solo practice without the audience as a goal becomes empty.

There is a second corollary for some of us amateurs.  We must perform, even if badly!  You should hear me play in church.  Well, maybe you shouldn't.  (It is a difficult instrument.  "yes, we wish it were impossible!") 

[rc]

I'm opinionated on the role of piano teachers as well

I would prefer my piano teacher more of a music than instrument teacher (not to be taken to the extreme, a piano teacher who can't help me figure out how to execute passages is no good).  

Because technique and music are linked, they're one and the same.  You need different technique to execute different musical objectives, you move differently for a crescendo than a decrescendo, different rhythmic effects, articulation...  It all depends firstly on the musical objective, the technique is determined to that end.

That's why I would rather have a music than instrument teacher.  I can usually figure out the technique on my own, once I have an idea of the sound I'm after.

The issue of mini-me's is only a concern to the students who won't think for themselves.  Whatever the teacher advocates, it's up to the student to accept or not.

And so teachers of music can give us many ideas to work with, that they've thought out over their years and we may not have even considered (yet).

[rc]

If this is true (and I agree 100%) then there is a corollary. 

We must perform, even if not frequently.  Solo practice without the audience as a goal becomes empty.

There is a second corollary for some of us amateurs.  We must perform, even if badly!  You should hear me play in church.  Well, maybe you shouldn't.  (It is a difficult instrument.  "yes, we wish it were impossible!") 

Absolutely!

I personally feel that unless there is some sort of audience, then I have learned a piece only for it to be forgotten.  Though it does happen, I take comfort that at least I learned something from that piece (technique/musicality) that will transfer for when I DO play for an audience, and that I could re-learn the piece later.  Again, for an audience.

As amateurs, we're learning.  All I ask is for our best, and coming back to the original poster, that may be your teachers reason for assigning less demanding pieces - you can focus on the music more and give a better result...  Better to play a simpler piece to the highest standard than to play an advanced piece mediocre or sloppy.

Perfection is an impossible reality, but a practical ideal - it will keep us forever improving.

[leucippus]

Are you trying to assert that you must learn technique from a master teacher, but musicality is innate? 

Basically yes.

I don't know about "innate" but it certainly comes from within. 

When I listen to piano music I think to myself, "If I could only play the piano, I know precisely how I would play each particular piece."

I mean, the musicality is already a done deal in my mind.  I know how I would play it if only I could play the instrument.

The only thing that's preventing me from playing the music that I have in my mind is the pure and simple technicality that I don't yet have the technical skill to play the instrument. That's it. Period.

So all I need to do is learn how to play the instrument and the musicality will take care of itself.  Of course, that's easier said than done.  It's not a simple intellectual matter of just learning where all the notes on the keyboard and how the pedals work.  It's a matter of teaching my fingers to pretty much instinctually pounce on the correct keys with precisely the right touch.

Ultimately that isn't something that needs to be "taught" to me, or even can be "taught" to me.  The only way to achieve that is via many hours of practicing until my fingers get used to dancing on the keyboard.  That will most likely take years of practice.  Sure, there are a lot helpful technical hints that I could learn about how to practice, and how to achieve certain affects (all technicalities), but ultimately I already have the final sound in my mind that I'd like to produce.  In other words, the musicality was a done deal before I even played my first note on the instrument.

And so the idea of someone teaching me musicality seems utterly preposterous to me.  My whole reason for wanting to learn to play the instrument in the first place is because I already know how I'd like to make the music sound.  So now if my piano teacher is going to stand there and try to make me produce a different sound than I have in my mind then my whole reason for wanting to learn how to play the instrument in the first place goes right out the window.  Why even bother? 

If they know how they want the music to sound let them play it!  What do they need me for?

[dnephi]

Musicality must be cultivated and developed.  One needs to be taught how to phrase, subphrase, structure, tension-ease, large-scale conception of a piece, etc.  And, if not included in technique, tone, touch, dnamic range, sonority, etc.  must be taught. 

The idea that musicality is innate is incorrect except for some extraordinary cases.  It must be cultivated and developed, and, for some, it comes more slowly and with more work than does technique. I am one of these, I must say .

[timothy42b]

Musicality must be cultivated and developed.  One needs to be taught how to phrase, subphrase, structure, tension-ease, large-scale conception of a piece, etc.  And, if not included in technique, tone, touch, dnamic range, sonority, etc.  must be taught. 

The idea that musicality is innate is incorrect except for some extraordinary cases.  It must be cultivated and developed, and, for some, it comes more slowly and with more work than does technique. I am one of these, I must say .

That is what I think too.

Some people are content not to go beyond a technician. 

For those that aspire to become musicians, it seems to me there are at least two more steps. 

One must learn to communicate music meaningfully and expressively. 

And eventually one must develop one's own uniquely personal musical voice.

I just don't see how you can "have" that, I think you learn it.  It may be harder than learning technique.

Or not, I've been wrong before. 

[counterpoint]

There is such great mystery about the word "musicality"

I think, it simply means, that you understand the music. That you understand not only which notes to play but also how to play them. It's like an actor has to understand what's going on at every moment. It isn't sufficient to know the meaning of single words or single phrases, but to know, that there is a difference between what people say and what they think.

[arensky]

well
i had a lesson with a new teacher since my last one left to study in england.
she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:(

she still thinks i have a good talent for it.

Good, and she's willing to teach you

but now she wants me to play "june" from seasons by tchaikovsky

She probably wants to retrain you with something technically easy. At least it's not like a teacher I know of who had his students do nothing but wrist drops for months, not allowing them to touch the keyboard 

and she says my musicality is near zero or zero

Disagree, I think your recordings, particularly the new ones are quite musical (particularly Scriabin) but you do have some technical issues to work out.

should i start over? am i THAT bad?

No you're not that bad. I think maybe this teacher comes on strong and is a bit of a hardass. If you think this person can help you give it a try. You can always quit studying with them it doesn't work out.

[liszt-essence]

I actually really like your fantasy160 piece.. im listening to it right now.. Haven't heard the others but this one I like.

I dont know what she's talking about? Your musicallity is absolutely not near zero or zero.

Even if she has a great reputation, who cares? If you feel you should stay, stay, if not, go away

Remeber, even Adolf hitler had a great reputation among his followers
(dont take that too seriously)

[keyofc]

Hodi,
Sorry, I'm not too computer - savvy , so I couldn't listen to your music.
But here is my opinion to an extent.
If you have been playing piano this long - you should know a few things about music and piano playing.  Not everything, of course, but a good deal.

Here are some questions I would ask:
1.  Who helped you find the new piano teacher?  If it was your old teacher, I'd get her/his opinion of the feedback you received on your first lesson.
2.

[keyofc]

oops - hit the send button too fast.
Hodi,

I would ask the teacher to demonstrate what it is that she is planning on teaching me.
If you can hear a big difference - and can see by her explanations of what she is doing,
that she could help you.  Ask her for step by step approaches at how you can learn what she wants to teach you.  If you can record her.  Whether or not you go to her - you can use the tape for yourself later.  I'd only consider going to her, if she did this and you sensed that she was interested in helping you.

Professional critique should be for building not tearing down.
If you do not sense a feeling of nurturing - I would ask my last piano teacher for another referral.  It's really important who you learn with.

I'm a piano teacher, and there are things about technique that I never learned until a few years ago.  I studied with a piano teacher who is a concert pianist - and she really helped me.  But although our levels of playing were hugely different, there was a profound respect for each other.  She respected my decision to learn more about technique and helped me immensely.   My technique was always good when playing by ear, but when playing by sight, it was weak.  It was more intuitive by ear.(Intuitive musicality, I guess, when played by ear)  Unintuitive by sight~!
Anyway - I guess what I want to say is - make sure she does not have a need to crash your ego to build hers.  There are plenty of good people who desire to help others on a professional level without discounting everything else the person knows.

If she is a good teacher, it's possible that she would bring you back (if needed!) to easier pieces so you can focus on technique alone.   This way - you can focus on what the piece is lacking.  I wish I could hear your music.  Another thing I would do if I were you, maybe, is to select a piece I feel good about playing and record it.  Later ask her to play it and later compare by yourself. 

After saying all of this, I would also add I have noticed a lot of snobbery in the music world.  When I was in college, now and then a professor would play a very complicated musical example very eloquently and then when finished, he would apologize for his lack of skill since he wasn't a pianist.  This always made me feel bad - because he was skilled, and it was very obvious.  So why did he feel the need to give a false humility to students who could not even mimick him?

I wish you all the luck and hope you find joy in your musical journey!

[ted]

"she said my playing is so bad that i should start studying piano over again!:("

Hodi, it seems to me the question is one of manners and communication, and has little to do with music. Her musical merit or yours is not the issue. Her way of expressing herself, especially to a new pupil, leaves a lot to be desired. I would be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt, assume that perhaps she had had a grumpy day, have a term with her and see how it goes before judging her on the basis of what might have been a thoughtless remark.