19yr old beginner needs help for a year's plan!

[humblemonkey]

Hello everyone on the board,

I am a 19yr old beginner and have been playing for one week. Exactly. My repetoire so far consists of Bach's Prelude in C major, Chopin's Prelude no.20, Satie's Gymnopedie no.1, and yes, everyone's favourite: fur elise  . Just today I have started working on Chopin's prelude no.4 and no.7 (following Bernhard's grading for the Chopin preludes).

I am very passionate about the piano, and am giving myself a year (from January) to develop my technique/musicality as much as possible.

Where can I go to find the best information on developing technique, and how to go about doing it? (collective groans erupt from members of the forum). A very general question I know, but I am unable to afford a teacher, so will be teaching myself. I am, however, able to afford books...

I would greatly appreciate all the help/advice I can get.

Cheers
Humblemonkey

[the_duck]

lots of people here have found great results with chang's book "the fundamentals of piano practice", which you can get for free online from here: https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

i've only just started trying out his methods, so it's too early for me to say if they work for me, but it's well worth having a look at.

as well as this, scales, arpeggios, chromatics, dominants, diminished, etc, are also essential and unavoidable. try and find a way of working these into your practice schedule (maybe using chang's methods).

and finally, i wouldn't worry about "giving yourself a year"- if you do the right sort of practice you'll progress at a good rate, and there's no telling where you'll be in a year's time. i find that i tend to improve in unforeseeable spurts, so perhaps in a year you may feel that you're not doing as well as you'd hoped, but by 18 months you're 10 times better than you ever thought you would be! the most important thing is to enjoy it.

[henrah]

the most important thing is to enjoy it.

Yes exactly. It's not sticking it out just because you want the technique: if you don't enjoy learning the technique, it won't be as good as it could be if you enjoyed it. Find ways to enjoy learning a new technique, for example: improvise around it, try playing pieces you already know but making the melody or accompaniment come through the technique you are learning.

The Chopin etudes (it looks like you really like Chopin already) are a good learning point for technique, but can be incredibly hard for a beginner. I suggest that if you do start looking at these etudes, be aware that they won't come easily: they require lots of hard work, and don't rush into them. Take them slowly as they can cause damage if practiced wrongly or too much. Also, for each etude you try to learn for the technique, look for an easier piece by someone else or by Chopin himself that uses that same technique at some point and learn that. That might get you to grips with the technique a little bit, and also add to your repetoire.
Henrah

Remember: if it hurts to play something a certain way, change how you play it.

[humblemonkey]

Enjoying learning a new technique is no problem for me - though I guess a week is probably too early to tell.

I looked at Chopin's etude op.10 no.3, and am not having too many problems with it. But I also looked at his op.10 no.4 etude and am having problems with the technique involved in playing measures 2-3 in the right hand, measures 6-7 in the left hand, and obviously, whenever that technique repeats. Particularly in the first measure of the two, should I be using predominantly a wrist movement, or is it a finger movement? in the last quad particularly (finger 2 on the dsharp going up to csharp). What should be the movements involved?

Cheers
Humblemonkey

[the_duck]

without meaning to sound discouraging, i'd stay well away from op.10 #4 if i were you. i'm terrified to go there, and i've been learning op.25 #11 for the last few months! in fact, i think the etudes in general are best kept at a distance for the time being. there are PLENTY of great pieces at a much less intimidating level which i'm sure you'd be better suited to. remember, these pieces will always be there to learn when (and the key word is WHEN, not IF) your technique improves, so why slave away fruitlessly, and make it harder to learn these pieces in the long run, when there are many pieces there that are within your level and you can learn in a fraction of the time?  if you're looking at chopin i can recommend nocturnes op.9 no.1 and op.27 no.2- they're both at a moderately easy technical level, but both present musical challenges, and have short technically demanding passages. meanwhile, there are countless pieces by beethoven, mozart, schubert, schumann, etc. that are more than deserving of your time!

just my 2 cents (or pence- i'm english), but i really think that torturing yourself with op.10 #4 would be pretty unhelpful.

[humblemonkey]

Thankyou for the words of warning (sincerely). I've made a rule with myself, that as long as it doesn't hurt when I play, it isn't going to hurt me. If that makes sense. I'm not silly enough to all of a sudden get ahead of myself and attempt all the etudes just yet.

But so far, my playing of the piece has been pretty stress free.

I have taken your suggestion of Chopin's nocturne op.9 no.1, and I am really enjoying it. Though I'm making sure to mix it up - can't be playing solely Chopin!

Right tomorrow I start Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concerto...lol. That's my dream piece to play. Hopefully before I'm 30.

[asyncopated]

If I had to give 1 piece of advice, i would say -- don't let your ego get in the way. 

What i mean is that don't concentrate on playing difficult pieces, or playing faster.
Instead concentrate firstly on sound, and with that technique. 

You can find technique in the simplest of pieces. 

BTW, I have to say that I've been playing for some time now, and still don't really have to courage to try Gymnopedie on my own, although I have fiddled around with it. 

Although the notes look simple, to sound and touch is very delicate but not weak, and not easy to produce consistantly.  Also, the piece has easy notes but is musically very complex, especially once you get past the popular first 8 (?) bars.  The music opens up to become much more profound and poignant, but keeping a certain sense of purity.  I have to confess that i still don't quite understand how to build the sound with this piece. 

One could say the same thing about the chopin prelude. 

At the end of the day, it's not about playing notes.  It's about expression, and part of practice is how to achieve consistant expression with pieces you are playing.

Unfortunately, i think getting a good teacher is essential (mind you, GOOD teacher).  I've never until recently realised how many trapings there are in playing the piano, and how many bad habits one can gain in terms of both movement and also just plain listening or rather ignoring the sound that one is producing. 

Most people are not good critics of the sound they produce.  It takes a trained ear to understand what the required sound of each note in a piece is, and a good pianist to show you explicitly how to use your body to produce that sound.  IMHO, the study of this movement is what consitutes the foundations of piano technique, and not being able to play are set of notes in sequence from any etude or method book. 

I am of the opinion, that with enough time and effort spent, I could teach a monkey how to play a chopin etude -- it's just not going to be very good.

In fact, if you get the movement, touch and general mood/energy of the piece wrong and keep repeating these "mistakes", it will just become very difficult to unlearn when they become habitual and entranched in your general playing style.

To give you an explicit example, I still can't play bach's invention number 13 well, although the piece is well within by grasp, because the first time i learnt to play it, i did it with very poor fingering, and when I learnt it properly with my teacher, i had to change the fingering.  So, now my brain is simply confused with that particular piece.


Honestly, I don't believe that one can move very far musically without a good teacher. 

Make good of your situation and all the best.

[humblemonkey]

I agree with you completely!

Though I have the notes of the gymnopedie completed and memorized, no way would I perform it. The way I look at things, technique and expression/musicality are inseperable. Just because I can play the notes, doesn't mean I have perfected the piece.

I am quite aware of the ego thing. With everyone telling me (family, friends, members of the forum, albeit discreetly) that I can't make it as a pianist at this late age, it would be easy to fall into the trap of "well I'll show you then, and then try and rattle off brahms' 2nd piano concerto after a month of playing. But I am determined not to let that happen.

As for the teacher, if I could afford one I would get one. But the truth is, I am paying to get through uni, and I am working so I can. My parents are in no position to assist me financially. This is not a pity cry, rather, the plain facts.

Hopefully by next year, I would have saved up enough to get a teacher, but at the moment, I just have to keep trucking along.

I'm not worried at all about the difficulty of the pieces I'm playing - rather, how much they move me, or get me excited. My next piece I want to play is actually a song, "perfect day" by lou reed. I am not playing this etude because it is difficult, but because I get excited when I listen to it being played.

This forum is one of the greates discoveries of my life. I only hope I don't get ignored because people think I am being an idiot. 

[asyncopated]

Wow that was a fast reply, you are keen.

I certainly don't think you are an idiot, but I am currently of the opinion that you don't fully understand what you are attempting to do.  Or even, if I may say it, not learning how to play the piano properly.  Of course I can't really tell as I haven't seen you play.  You might be a musical genius for all I know that do know exactly what is required.  However, i must say the probablity of that is mighty small.

I think your enthusiam is certainly commandable to say the least and if used correctly, although probably as you pointed out won't make you a concert pianist, but certainly will carry you far enough such that you will gain an understanding of music in general; and of playing the piano in particular, that will far surpass any mediocre pianists.  One of the reasons that I play the piano is that i just enjoy it.  It's really one of those things in life that is sheer pleasure.

There are a few other small things that i can suggest. 

Learn some music theory -- by this I mean theory applied to the pieces you are playing.

Learn some music history -- renaissance, baroque, classical, romatic and mordern era.  Each have a distinctive style and sound.  Composers have their own unique styles.

Listen to classical music -- not just the popular stuff, but also the stuff that's difficult to understand.    Not just piano, but ochestral music, opera, and all the other stuff. Also learn to listen critically... what is good playing/ a good sound and why?  Go to concerts.

Learn a bit about how pieces are constructed.  Even the simple ones can be exceedingly clever.


All this will help you to develop as a musician.  If you would like to take up playing classical music seriously, I would consider it essential. 


p.s. One more thing springs to mind.  Here is an article about learning and becoming an expert in a field.  I think you may find this interesting.

https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00010347-101C-14C1-8F9E83414B7F4945&pageNumber=1&catID=2

[humblemonkey]

I certainly don't think you are an idiot, but I am currently of the opinion that you don't fully understand what you are attempting to do.  Or even, if I may say it, not learning how to play the piano properly.  Of course I can't really tell as I haven't seen you play.  You might be a musical genius for all I know that do know exactly what is required.  However, i must say the probablity of that is mighty small.

What exactly is meant by this comment? What exactly is required before I attempt the etudes? How, by learning a piece that as yet has not taxed me beyond a reasonable level, am I not learning properly? I appreciate your criticism, as I am sure you mean well, but I am of the opinion that "grades" do not matter. Should you not try calligraphy just because you only learnt to write a week ago? Is there some kind of time limit imposed before one is able to try out for a sports team? No. If you can do it, you can do it - and that is all that matters. As previously stated, this particular piece is causing me no serious problems as yet - nothing that would legitimately give me reason to stop. I am not attempting to play 20 pieces at this level - just one.

Please keep the criticism coming, but I find it hard to believe that no-one sees where I'm coming from...

humblemonkey

[the_duck]

What exactly is meant by this comment? What exactly is required before I attempt the etudes? How, by learning a piece that as yet has not taxed me beyond a reasonable level, am I not learning properly? I appreciate your criticism, as I am sure you mean well, but I am of the opinion that "grades" do not matter. Should you not try calligraphy just because you only learnt to write a week ago? Is there some kind of time limit imposed before one is able to try out for a sports team? No. If you can do it, you can do it - and that is all that matters. As previously stated, this particular piece is causing me no serious problems as yet - nothing that would legitimately give me reason to stop. I am not attempting to play 20 pieces at this level - just one.

Please keep the criticism coming, but I find it hard to believe that no-one sees where I'm coming from...

humblemonkey

i can see where you're coming from. you clearly want to progress as quickly as you can, and play the pieces that you enjoy playing, and there's no crime in that! the only thing is, the quickest route to progress is in fact a steadier one which involves choosing pieces that are at, or slightly above (and in some cases below) your current level. i was actually in a similar situation to you. about 4 years ago i decided to get back into the piano after giving up for about 6 years, and immediately wanted to play some pretty difficult stuff- rachmaninov op.3 no.2, chopin 3rd ballade, beethoven pathetique, etc. but unfortunately each of these pieces was just too far beyond my technical level, and to this day i still can't play any of these pieces accurately, even though i can play more difficult compositions without too many problems. the way i play these pieces (or attempt to) is too tied in with my poor technique at the time, and it would require some serious effort on my part to undo the damage. so, by all means have a go at op.10 #4, especially if you're not feeling any physical discomfort. but you should be prepared for the piece to cause you greater unnecessary difficulties in the long run- even if you practise it perfectly. my best advice would be that for the pieces you REALLY love, it might be better to wait until your technique is more up to the task. as i said before, there are literally THOUSANDS of masterpieces which are well within your grasp- why rush to learn those that aren't yet? you could learn 10 pieces in the time it takes you to slog through it, after which time you'd be much better prepared to tackle it, since you learn something valuable from every piece you study.

having said that, you'll probably learn the op.10 #4 perfectly in about a month and play it like [insert favourite pianist here] and put me to shame!

anyway, good luck!

[humblemonkey]

I hear what you're saying duck - and I know it is possible I could fail miserably. But I think you would agree with me when I say: there is a difference in playing a piece while struggling and straining, and playing the same piece effortlessly. If after two months, I haven't put a decent recording of this piece up, I will forever hold my silence (on this particular topic)! haha.

Currently I would say the c major prelude is "below" my level, but I get a huge kick out of playing it.

In saying that, there are some pieces (Chopin's ballades, Rachmaninoff's preludes, Beethoven's sonata's) I'm not planning on touching for at least...a year

cheers
humblemonkey

ps other comments are most welcome

[asyncopated]

What exactly is meant by this comment? What exactly is required before I attempt the etudes? How, by learning a piece that as yet has not taxed me beyond a reasonable level, am I not learning properly? I appreciate your criticism, as I am sure you mean well, but I am of the opinion that "grades" do not matter. Should you not try calligraphy just because you only learnt to write a week ago? Is there some kind of time limit imposed before one is able to try out for a sports team? No. If you can do it, you can do it - and that is all that matters. As previously stated, this particular piece is causing me no serious problems as yet - nothing that would legitimately give me reason to stop. I am not attempting to play 20 pieces at this level - just one.

Please keep the criticism coming, but I find it hard to believe that no-one sees where I'm coming from...

humblemonkey

Here is another non-argument.   People undertake chopin only after years and year of playing, having about 150 performable pieces under their repetoir and any good, serious teacher will only undertake teaching you the piece, only when you have achieved a similar standard.  Why do you think that is so?

Here is another non-argument, but is a comment worth considering. Chopin's etudes IMO really have a special place.  If you mess up learning a bach invention at the end of the day, as fantastic pieces go, it won't really bother you. Just move on.  Or if you get really good, it's easy to unlearn what you have learnt wrongly before and put it right.  With Chopin, they are such awsome pieces, that really, if you do it wrongly and are stuck with that, you might kick yourself later, in never being able to play the piece properly.

I agree that there is no grade, or if there is it is only a guide.  However there are easier and harder pieces relative to you.  A piece that is easy for you is one that you can play almost immediately, and takes very little time to polish (say a week).  A piece that is difficult, you might be able to pull off the notes in some parts.   But that's what they will remain, just notes and not part of music that expresses emotion and intelligence.
I consider a piece learnt only when it is not very far from performance standards. 

What this really means taking care of details.  Legato line, pharasing, touch, having a "chopin sound" -- having a pretty steady left and a fluid right hand, using rubato approriately in a romatic style, making every note have a meaning in the context that it sits in a piece, having the ornaments in the correct place, studying the structure of the piece and using that in your playing, bringing out the melody line all the time and presenting it on a platter, etc. etc..

Often, it takes a trained ear to point out what you have to do and a good teacher to communicate to you exactly how to do it.  Although most people, on listenting to a recording, can tell if a rendition of a piece is good or bad, most people can't tell you exactly why it's good or what you have to do to achive the same kind of effect. 

These details are only very broadly expressed on the page in terms of dynamics, tempo, other instructions,  and sometimes in the way the notes are written so that you don't go too wildly off what the composer intended. But an infinite number of them simply cannot be written down.

At the end of the day, you have to learn details, details, details, and the worst thing about them is that  to play the piece succesfully, you have to sort of practice until you can forget about them consiously, and not have to worry everytime when to get to a more "difficult" passage. 

Maybe one way to think about it is that if bach inventions had about 100 details you have to take care of -- and there are many, many of them in the inventions.  Chopin's etudes have about 10000 details that warrent your attention, all of them equally important and urgent.  If you don't already do some of them automatically, and are relatively new, your brain probably can't cope with that many new details at the same time. 

If you don't see this or feel that a chopin etude it is daunting, perhaps it's because you don't fully understand what is required of the music.  I certainly think at the moment that a chopin etude is rediculously difficult, not just challenging.  There is a sense in me that really wants go ahead to play some of the etudes -- all if possible, but i'm willing to be patient and put that off till later.  I'm sure i will get there.

Of course what i am describing is an over simplification of things.  For one thing, in the real world, it's not possible really to count these details. But i hope you get the idea why playing an etude, which i'm sure you can learn -- you can learn any piece if you put your mind to it -- may not not be the best thing to do. 

The fellow who suggested that you undertake a chopin etude should be shot in the head.  Twice.

Anyway, i'm not going to badger you anymore.  If you want me to clearify any of the points i'm making, I'm happy to do so.  But if you insist on playing a chopin etude either to prove me and everyone else wrong or out of sheer stubborness, i say , go right ahead.  I'm not willing to argue this position any more, and have spent enough of my time on it already.

[liszt-essence]

Hi humblemonkey!

You know.. you said 'if I can do it, I can do it''

I totally agree with you on that point.

Mind me, and probably most people. When you've been playing piano for some years it becomes evident that some pieces are rather more complex to play than others. Now in the same field it is like a mission impossible for any person to play the 10/4 within their first 2 months of piano playing. With NO background experience.. at all.

I think most people would say, it can't be done. (At least not in a way, that is acceptable to actually listen to)

However.. If you cán do it, do it! I'm sure everyone would agree. And I would love to hear more of your piano pieces.

But surely, if you make plans for yourself like these, do not look puzzled if you see a lot of sceptical frowns appear on people faces

Anyway, I wish you much luck and im looking forward to your first recording posted on piano street.

[roflman05]

Humblemonkey

I think you should stick to your own plan , when it comes to which pieces you want to play and how you want them to sound.

I have always wondered when people say "play this etude before attempting that piece , because it has the technique required".

So if I dont like that etude? should I play anything I dont like? will that improve my playing if I dont like the piece Im playing!? I dont think so, not musically anyway.

Im not one of the kind that need years of mental preparation and 200 pieces before attempting the chopin prelude no.4. Not because its one of the easiest (arguably) but because that is one of many pieces that makes me want to play the piano.

I dont think you should just wait and wait until you get ready to play a chopin etude.
If you like it enough you should play it and develop it until YOU are satisfied with your playing. Dont worry if you cant play it the first day, its not one of the easiest pieces.

The thing is, not everyone will like your playing , and some will.

Some people doesnt like Lang Lang's playing , does it mean he dont understand the "musical purpose" of the piece? No..

Its because he plays the piece in his own way. Some people like it, some dont!

As long as you are satisfied with your playing and you like it, the whole purpose of your  playing is revealed.

And if others like it, when you perform,  they will applaude..

[henrah]

I am quite aware of the ego thing. With everyone telling me (family, friends, members of the forum, albeit discreetly) that I can't make it as a pianist at this late age, it would be easy to fall into the trap of "well I'll show you then, and then try and rattle off brahms' 2nd piano concerto after a month of playing. But I am determined not to let that happen.

Great pianists don't always start at a young age. You have just as much chance of making it as a pianist as any other. With talent and motivation, you can do anything.

[ihatepop]

Hello everyone on the board,

I am a 19yr old beginner and have been playing for one week. Exactly. My repetoire so far consists of Bach's Prelude in C major, Chopin's Prelude no.20, Satie's Gymnopedie no.1, and yes, everyone's favourite: fur elise  . Just today I have started working on Chopin's prelude no.4 and no.7 (following Bernhard's grading for the Chopin preludes).

I am very passionate about the piano, and am giving myself a year (from January) to develop my technique/musicality as much as possible.

Where can I go to find the best information on developing technique, and how to go about doing it? (collective groans erupt from members of the forum). A very general question I know, but I am unable to afford a teacher, so will be teaching myself. I am, however, able to afford books...

I would greatly appreciate all the help/advice I can get.

Cheers
Humblemonkey

If you are a begainner and would like to train yourself, I recommand some Czerny. Try the 'School of Velocity'.

ihatepop

[kilini]

Humblemonkey

I think you should stick to your own plan , when it comes to which pieces you want to play and how you want them to sound.

I have always wondered when people say "play this etude before attempting that piece , because it has the technique required".

So if I dont like that etude? should I play anything I dont like? will that improve my playing if I dont like the piece Im playing!? I dont think so, not musically anyway.

Im not one of the kind that need years of mental preparation and 200 pieces before attempting the chopin prelude no.4. Not because its one of the easiest (arguably) but because that is one of many pieces that makes me want to play the piano.

I dont think you should just wait and wait until you get ready to play a chopin etude.
If you like it enough you should play it and develop it until YOU are satisfied with your playing. Dont worry if you cant play it the first day, its not one of the easiest pieces.

The thing is, not everyone will like your playing , and some will.

Some people doesnt like Lang Lang's playing , does it mean he dont understand the "musical purpose" of the piece? No..

Its because he plays the piece in his own way. Some people like it, some dont!

As long as you are satisfied with your playing and you like it, the whole purpose of your playing is revealed.

And if others like it, when you perform, they will applaude..

What if he gets tendonitis and/or messes up pieces he love irrevocably? I love the Rach3, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try it.

Anyway, I started a Chopin etude (op 10 no 12) 1 1/2 years after I started piano, so it's definitely possible.

[steve jones]

Enjoying learning a new technique is no problem for me - though I guess a week is probably too early to tell.

I looked at Chopin's etude op.10 no.3, and am not having too many problems with it. But I also looked at his op.10 no.4 etude and am having problems with the technique involved in playing measures 2-3 in the right hand, measures 6-7 in the left hand, and obviously, whenever that technique repeats. Particularly in the first measure of the two, should I be using predominantly a wrist movement, or is it a finger movement? in the last quad particularly (finger 2 on the dsharp going up to csharp). What should be the movements involved?

Cheers
Humblemonkey

Mate, can I just ask...

Do you have some previous musical experience?

Cuz you seem to be moving with prodigious pace! Learning to read music takes way longer than a week. To even understand the notation in that time is quite something.

While I would usually say dont even attempt pieces like Op 10 No 4, you probably should as you clearly have extraordinary talent. Get yourself a scholarship to one of the major conservatoires my friend!

SJ

[steve jones]

What if he gets tendonitis and/or messes up pieces he love irrevocably? I love the Rach3, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try it.

Anyway, I started a Chopin etude (op 10 no 12) 1 1/2 years after I started piano, so it's definitely possible.

To be fair...

Start 10/12 after 1 1/2 years and starting 10/4 after a week are VERY different attempts!

While I do wish HM all the luck in the world (sincerely), I think he will perhaps come back to us in two months with a rather red face. Im going to go out on a limb and state that it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to succeed.

If he does, then as I said before, he needs to quit uni and go the Julliard, pronto!

SJ

[pianowelsh]

To help you be efficient.. Both Frank Merrick and Jeffrey Whitton have written excellent books on practicsing and aquiring technique.. I highly recommend them - espec the whitton its very approachable and very practical.

[jazzyprof]

Hello everyone on the board,

I am a 19yr old beginner and have been playing for one week. Exactly. My repetoire so far consists of Bach's Prelude in C major, Chopin's Prelude no.20, Satie's Gymnopedie no.1, and yes, everyone's favourite: fur elise  . Just today I have started working on Chopin's prelude no.4 and no.7 (following Bernhard's grading for the Chopin preludes).

I am very passionate about the piano, and am giving myself a year (from January) to develop my technique/musicality as much as possible.

Where can I go to find the best information on developing technique, and how to go about doing it? (collective groans erupt from members of the forum). A very general question I know, but I am unable to afford a teacher, so will be teaching myself. I am, however, able to afford books...

I would greatly appreciate all the help/advice I can get.

Cheers
Humblemonkey

Every now and then a beginner comes ostensibly seeking advice.  "Hi I've been playing piano for one week.  I'd like to start now on the Chopin Etudes, particularly Op. 10, no. 4."  People then try to give well intentioned advice and it immediately becomes clear that advice is not what is being sought.  Consent, perhaps?  Applause, maybe.  People then get bent out of shape on both sides.  I am reminded of the famous "Breadboy" thread a couple of years ago.  "Hi, I've been playing piano for 3 months.  Am I ready to start the Fantasie Impromptu?"  What followed was one of the more comical exchanges I've yet seen on this forum.  Breadboy then disappeared, probably done in by the Fantasie Impromptu, and hasn't been heard from since.  Here's the thread:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4177.0.html

If it is advice you truly seek, let me quote you some passages from a foreword to the Chopin Etudes by Carl Mikuli, Chopin's student and, later, his teaching assistant.  He begins "Some information concerning Chopin the teacher, even in the shape of a mere sketch, can hardly fail to interest many readers."  He then goes on to say "On beginning with a pupil, Chopin was chiefly anxious to do away with any stiffness in, or cramped, convulsive movement of the hand, thereby obtaining the first requisite of a fine technique: "souplesse" (suppleness), and at the same time independence in the motion of the fingers." 

He then talks about how Chopin would start the student with the B major scale, exercises from Clementi's Exercises and Preludes, Cramer's Etudes, Bach's English and French Suites.  His nocturnes were used to teach the student "to recognize, love, and produce the legato and the beautiful connected singing tone."  Finally, he states: "Only far-advanced pupils were given his Etudes, Op. 10 and Op. 25."

So, if it is advice you seek, you might take note of Chopin's own view of the place of his etudes in the path of a student's development.  If it is consent, I'd say, hey go for it!  I do admire your passion!  Try to stay relaxed and avoid injury.  If you can't afford a teacher you might do well to borrow the Taubman Method videos from your college library. 

[humblemonkey]

Every now and then a beginner comes ostensibly seeking advice.  "Hi I've been playing piano for one week.  I'd like to start now on the Chopin Etudes, particularly Op. 10, no. 4."  People then try to give well intentioned advice and it immediately becomes clear that advice is not what is being sought.  Consent, perhaps?  Applause, maybe.  People then get bent out of shape on both sides. 

Hey,

I didn't realise I was giving the impression that I was getting bent out of shape. If that is what it seems to be, I'm sorry. As my first post shows I did come on board the forum for advice, and so far, everyone has been giving me fair-minded advice and I really appreciate it.

I have ordered fink's book and dved, and will look into the taubman and czerny stuff. Thankyou everyone for the suggestions.

I will be not come back red-faced if I am unable to succeed with this piece - and in all probability I won't be able to. But the part that I asked for advice on, I have under my fingers now, and can hs play above speed. All in all, I am on this board for advice, not for adoration (which I do not deserve) or applause or congratulations.

But I will continue to make frequent visits to this board - do not expect a disappearing act by me...unless no-one wants me on here.

Cheers
humblemonkey

ps I will post the recording of the piece (or whatever scraps are left of it) mid-january

[steve jones]

I will be not come back red-faced if I am unable to succeed with this piece - and in all probability I won't be able to. But the part that I asked for advice on, I have under my fingers now, and can hs play above speed. All in all, I am on this board for advice, not for adoration (which I do not deserve) or applause or congratulations.

Sorry, that was a rather a condescending thing to say and I should apologize for it. I guess that was my own envy talking, as Iv been playing for about 20 months and struggle with even the easy parts of 10-4.

But being totally honest, I dont see how you can have 10-4 under your fingers in this time... any of it!

To my understanding, that is impossible regardless of talent. To even understand the notion in a week if phenomenal. Or to use the terminology - getting it 'under ones fingers', all suggests WAY more than a weeks experience.

Again, I am sorry for being so skeptical of you, cuz its possible you are totally genuine. I dont KNOW that you arent at least, and you come across as a really nice bloke (or lady). But it is impossible what you are asking to believe here. On any other board, I would think you a troll,  attempting to have a 'laugh' with us. Though this place has a generally good crowd some Im certainly NOT accusing you of that.

PLEASE, post me a recording of what you can play right now. Honestly, I want to hear you play a least some of it above speed HS. That would go along way to attenuate my gross skeptisism.

Cheers,

SJ

[humblemonkey]

I am not trying to have a laugh with anyone - and must admit I felt a little put-out with some of the comments...I really am a softy

Am currently at a uni hostel, writing this on a laptop, with no access to recording equipment (also need to figure out how to put that kind of stuff on the internet). But the year finishes around mid-november (southern hemisphere you see), so will be home after that. I'll see what I can jack up, but, at the moment I am looking at keeping that january date for posting a recording. And by that I mean, whatever state it's in. Not in a: "haha, I proved everyone wrong." If the recording is bad, say so. I can handle constructive criticism.

To learn how to read music, it took me about a day. I used the Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit, and FACE for the treble, and All Cows Eat Grass, and G-B-D-F-Ah (said in some sort of rhythm) for the bass. Learning where it all went on the piano so it was fully ingrained also took about a day. It isn't hard to see the pattern of the keyboard repeats itself, so it was just a matter of learning one set of 12 notes. I also went out and bought a theory book.

NB: when I say a day, I then revised and revised for the next week. ie, the next day I had forgotten, but it took a lot shorter to learn it again. The next day, just a memory jog was required.

As for time spent at the piano - today is my 11th day at the piano, physically playing, and have averaged about 4-5 hours a day. Some days less, some more.

At school I spent countless hours in history and english class messing around with my fingers - drumming them, tapping the table with each finger individually, lifting one finger at a time in order (raise index then put down, raise middle, then down etc then doing the same thing but repeating the finger.)...would this have helped?

humblemonkey

[steve jones]

Mate, I really didnt mean to offend you... and if that is the case then I truly do apologize.

You just have to realise that you've come to us making claims that we (as pianists of ranging experience) know can not possibly be true!

I dont mean to offend you. Its just, you cannot go from being a none musician to performance standard (with any piece!) in just a week. Not possible!

In addition, I cant work out how you can speak like a muso if you have only been on for a week? How are you familiar with the composers and the reportoire? How can you read the score?

Please, these are questions Im dying to here you answer! If you are all you claim, then Im honoured to meet you. Also, for a none keyboard player to develop the technical attributes to play Bach Inventions takes WAY more than a week!

You're talking impossibilities my friend!

But Im so fascinated that I want to believe in you. Honestly. There is something about such prodigious talent that is just magical and I find it so inspiring. Makes me believe that anything could be possible, you know?

Like, I progressed fairly quickly in piano. I was playing Gr 5 stuff after 6 months. Now Im doing several Gr 8 pieces (after about 18 months I think it is). But Iv had to work pretty hard and spend alot of time at the keyboard. I know to develop just a single motion can take quite a lot of time. In addition, I was a musician for years before I ever touched a piano. So I know much of the rep, the composers, the notation etc before hand.

You see what Im getting at?

So mate, I am 100% behind you. Im just dying to hear what you can produce. If you can prove your claims to me, then no bs, dont even waste your time on this forum. Go to the biggest and best conservatoire you can find. As they'll want to studies on you and stuff!

SJ

PS. Again, please dont take offense by anything. Id hate to think that you see my posts as being nasty or vindictive. When I say Im fascinated, I truly am.

[humblemonkey]

yeah man, no worries: I know you aren't trying to be nasty. And playing grade 8 after 18months is not exactly slow progress. At the same token, I don't mean for my honest responses or questions to be taken as "claims," though at this point in time, to everyone on here, that is all they are I guess.

I am going to lay out a load of stuff, and see if that changes anything.

For the last three weeks and a bit, I have completely immersed myself in everything piano. I even dream about it. I actually dreamed about playing a recording of me playing the etude to a room full of people, and them critiquing it. It was so weird. But so helpful at the same time.

Almost everyone that I know, muso or not, has heard fur elise, minute waltz, heroic polonaise etc etc. Coupled with that, my parents have always been classical music fanatics - non-playing fanatics. Our house is filled to the brim with old records of classical music. So I have grown up listening to all this kind of music.

As for speaking like a muso, I'm at uni, and every next person seems to be taking music: my best friend is doing jazz trombone. another classical guitar. another, singing. another, composition. my girlfriend, piano. my comment about getting it "under the fingers" stems from my friend who, every ten seconds is talking about how he's finally got a particular piece "under his fingers." 

As for learning how to read from a score: how long is it expected to take? I'm not meaning to come across as arrogant, but it wasn't hard for me. I can memorize easily. I have what I need to play in my head well before I can actually play it. And as for constantly drumming the table with my fingers, I noticed and payed conscious attention to what I do when I was doing it at dinner just now.  Unless it is impossible to gain finger independence (read it on the forum, and in one of gf’s books) away from the piano, which I doubt, I fail to see how my “drumming” wouldn’t have assisted me in some way. 

Are non-piano achievements be relevant? If so I will list them. Though I have a strange feeling many members of this forum are already tired of my outrageous claims, and just want to see the back of me.

When it comes to piano, I am wide-eyed and uninitiated. But passionate. By mid-January I may put a recording up, and have it completely rubbished. Will I stop playing? No. Will I leave the board in shame? No. I’m on here for advice - I found this site through a google search looking for piano tips.

But, everyone on here has put some serious doubts in my mind. I feel like tomorrow I’m going to wake up and not be able to move my hands or something like that. That, by playing around with this piece (etude) I’m somehow trying to prove how great I am. I’m not. I’m simply having an enjoyable time with it. Is it easy? No. Was I able to sight read through the whole thing? No way. I’m not trying to kid anyone here. Am I able to take this piece  in one quarter bar sections at a time? Yes. And, I have told myself that as soon as I start hurting, I’m going to put this piece away until there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that I’m ready in every regard. 

Right. That probably still leaves a lot of questions, doubts, suspicions, confusion. If so, feel free to send me a private message. But my replies on this post are getting longer and longer, and I’m sure people are sick of it.

Cheers
humblemonkey

[asyncopated]

But Im so fascinated that I want to believe in you. Honestly. There is something about such prodigious talent that is just magical and I find it so inspiring. Makes me believe that anything could be possible, you know?

Just as a side, I think my current teacher was a child prodigy.  I say 'was', because she is still a prodigy but no longer a child.  Her movement is simply astounding, and every time I put a completely new piece in front of her (grade 6 - , which she says she has never played before, she just rattles it off almost flawlessly with full expression.   

She studied physics and music as an undergrad, but is doing a Ph.D. at the royal college of music in London.  I asked her how she did it, and get the impressions that although talent counts -- it gives you a good sense of music and focuses your aim in practicing, I gathered that a lot of it boils down to pure hard work.

For example, she said that one of her teachers, when she was young, about 9 i think, made her study all the inventions and transpose it to every key.  Now there's a challenge.  Also she said that she was required to turn out a section of Haydn's early sonata (the easier ones) every week.   With that alone, you can imagine the amount of work that she has put into playing the piano.   

I'm a middle aged pianist who started a couple of year ago and somehow, she decided to put me though the paces. I'm learning all the inventions, and also some of the early haydn sonatas, amongst other things -- and I'm having great fun! 

I have to say, having seen what she does is completely astounding.  I never could imagine that anyone can be that good at playing the piano, and i do know quite a few reasonable amature pianist. 

So, my point being that, prodigies do exist -- despite all my prior doubts about there being such a thing.  But being a prodigy will only get you so far.  To be good requires an enormous amount of (correct) practice anyway.  Prodigy or not -- you can't escape it. 

My other point is aimed at older beginners -- the fact that she is willing to put me though the same kind of grind suggests that she don't really think that age is a factor.  No matter how old you are, you can eventually become very good at what you set you mind to, given enough passion and the right kind of instruction. 

BTW she is giving a mini concert (1 h, 6-7 in the evening on 30th oct) in central london.  If you are in london, have an hour to spare, and want to see her perform (free) pm me and i will give you directions.

PS. I found a vid of richter on the 10/4.  the sound quality isn't good but you get the jist of what's happening.  Stunning stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydp-BVuOAxk&mode=related&search=

Here is mei-ting's version.  The sound quality is better, and his playing is virtuosic, but very different from richters.  I like richter's better but won't go into why that's the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM0jk4cDBm0&mode=related&search=

here is the last one that i found of the 10-4.  Of all three versions i like this one the best.  I've never heard freddy kempf play before, but this is technically out of this world.  His lines are clear and expressive.   The undercurrent to the piece is astounding.  I don't know what else to say but WOW.  Listen to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXAbtsy_lgk

[swim4ever_22]

My thoughts on Richter, Mei-Ting, and Kempf.


I personally think Kempf does it best. I like the tempo of his version of the etude, and the dynamics are good, but I think the dynamics of Mei-Ting are the best, especially the accents. Richter has Kempfs speed, perhaps he plays it faster than Kempf, and his dynamics I would say aren't as varying as Mei-Tings. On the other hand, I didn't like the speed of Mei-Ting's playing. I think it should be played faster, as Richter and Kempf do it. If I had to rate them, I would say Kempf, Richter, and Mei-Ting. Put Mei-Ting's use of dynamics in with the speed of Kempt or Richter, and that's how I think it should be played. Just my opinion.

To Humblemonkey, I've been playing the piano for roughly a year, but I haven't exactly gone anywhere with it. I would certainly not attempt this etude, but that's just me. If you want to tackle it, I say go ahead. Do what you want to do. As Debussy said, "You have only to play. Pleasure is the only law." Something to that effect. So, my thoughts. Try it. If you fail, put it off, learn some different repertoire, then come back to it. You can only progress in your ability to play the piano, never get worse.

[steve jones]

You can only progress in your ability to play the piano, never get worse.

You sure about that?

Id beg to differ. I think can certainly get worse.

SJ

[debussy symbolism]

Ufortunately it is true-you can get worse. Whilst I am all for exploration of new material, even that which is of rather difficult nature, certain methods of playing must already be aquired before attempting such pieces. Ingraining poor habits is more dangerous than commonly thougt, because they are that much harder to correct.

Humblemonkey, you should better get a teacher, because only a teacher can assess your progress. Whilst you may think that you are progressing safely, you may not be, especially when it comes to such material as Bach, in which many voices intervene, and finger independance is required in order to sustain notes for their full value. There is a saying in Russian, which rougly translates to: "if you hurry, you will make a fool of yourself." Do not be too hasty in challenging difficult pieces. Instead, try to find a teacher who can assess your playing and offer further advice.

Hope this helps.

[swim4ever_22]

You sure about that?

Id beg to differ. I think can certainly get worse.

SJ

Well. Okay. If you play the piano for some odd years, quite for a long time, then pick it back up again, obviously your ability to play will deteriorate. What I meant was that if you are consistent and you gradually build and build, you cannot get worse. You can only progress.

[richy321]

Like everyone else here, I am astounded by your matter-of-fact statements that you learned to read in one day, and that you had no particular problem with Opus 10/3.  This piece is quite a challenge for experienced players, just to read.

Mind you, I am not doubting your statements, just very amazed.  I would say that you are either a rare prodigy or an imposter.  I will give you the benefit of being the former.  But that raises the question of why anyone with such exceptional talent and growing up surrounded by classical music did not discover his gifts until age 19.  I don't say it's impossible, but a little hard to believe.  I suppose it is possible to have the physical and mental ability to play without having the inner drive to learn and explore music on his/own as a child, but I never heard of such a thing. 

Still, I grant that it is possible.  But if so, it is not reasonable that you should not be under the guidance of a good teacher.   Whether you can afford it or not should not be relevant.  I'm sure there are scholarships available for such prodigious talent as you seem to have.

I'm really looking forward to your first recordings.  Good luck

Rich Y

[steve jones]

Well. Okay. If you play the piano for some odd years, quite for a long time, then pick it back up again, obviously your ability to play will deteriorate. What I meant was that if you are consistent and you gradually build and build, you cannot get worse. You can only progress.

Without wishing to get off topic, I have to disagree with you on this one. I think its only possible to continue progressing if you have the right guidence / learning material. If you go off on a wrong turn, then imo you can totally go backwards.

I mean, look at all the pianists who got worse with age due to faulty techniques?

I think the important thing is to progress yeh, but to do it in the right way. That doesnt mean one cant progress quickly, quite the opposite infact! But Id wager that someone with no experience at all would not help themselves by trying to spend their first few months attempting virtuoso rep.

Even if they dont get injured, I think the likely hood of picking up bad habits is so high its inevitable.

Dont forget, we are talking about someone who has NO musical or keyboard experience at all. NONE! Neither the physical or mental attributes are developed at all. I mean, in self teaching, we first need to learn HOW to learn, right?

Btw, if Humble is still reading this, but sure to check out Bernhards posts. He's helped me alot on my self learning.

SJ

[humblemonkey]

I watched those video's you posted links to, asyncopated. Man, those guys are amazing. I still have some way to go!

I guess the reason I never started earlier is because, though I've always been surrounded by classical music - it was never something I immersed myself in. The music was always just on: and I would be doing my own thing. plus we don't have any musical instruments in the house. It wasn't until I came to uni that I was actually surrounded by people who play music, and started having a vested interest in it (vested probably not the right word). I have always been the sporto, as were all my friends (no musos where I come from - very small townish).

But anyway the point of what I'm saying is (yes, I always post in a very round-about-ish way) is that I have taken everyone's advice and rung around some piano teachers. I have got in contact with five: two teachers from the music school at the uni, one ex-music school teacher, and two that were recommended by one of the music school teachers. I'm meeting them all next week...

Fingers crossed!!

humblemonkey

ps I stumbled across maylas big post of links whilst searching for bernhard - I've got a lot of reading to do, haha.

[steve jones]

Mate, I know what you mean about being immersed in music but never taking it up. My uncle owns a pretty decent sized music business, and my cousin could have had his pick of whatever instruments he liked. Yet the guy never got into it.

I, on the other hand, would have sold my little toe for a Gibson LesPaul during my teens! Fortuately I managed to get my hands on one when I was 17, and it was amazing 

But you're right, so many people just switch off to it when they have it all around them from an early age. Others find it by accident and even without the resources they thrive. Its all down to the individual I guess.

Btw, you should really look at some more of the Chopin preludes. They are a GREAT way into the Etudes. Iv been through quite a few of them now, and there is plenty to work through and all very different. Its weird cuz one might seem easy, and everyone will tell you its hard. Another might seem really difficult, yet everyone finds it easy! Like for some reason I always found No9 to be difficult. But yet Im not having half as much trouble with No22 (which I think most would agree is considerably more difficult). A few of them are stupidly hard mind you. No16 is rough, No5... and No24 is far from being easy.

Point is, I think the Chopin preludes and the Bach Inventions would be a great route into the Chopin Etudes. I might be wrong, but thats my 2cents.

SJ

[asyncopated]

I guess the reason I never started earlier is because, though I've always been surrounded by classical music - it was never something I immersed myself in. The music was always just on: and I would be doing my own thing. plus we don't have any musical instruments in the house. It wasn't until I came to uni that I was actually surrounded by people who play music, and started having a vested interest in it (vested probably not the right word). I have always been the sporto, as were all my friends (no musos where I come from - very small townish).

I think you're lucky.  My parents had and still do have appalling tastes in music -- according to my high brow standards .

But anyway the point of what I'm saying is (yes, I always post in a very round-about-ish way) is that I have taken everyone's advice and rung around some piano teachers. I have got in contact with five: two teachers from the music school at the uni, one ex-music school teacher, and two that were recommended by one of the music school teachers. I'm meeting them all next week...

Nice.  All the best!  I look forward to you posting how your 1st lesson went.  I think it will be the start of a very long (and fun) journey! 


P.S. I wasn't kidding about teaching a monkey how to play the 10-4.  I leave you with a breakthrough -- a chimp playing pacman

https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4436237546829251001&q=chimp

[steve jones]

Ok, I just want to say that 10-4 is RUFF (dasdc spelling  ).

I was looking at it today, and Im thinking 'ok, this is pretty damn hard to play at pace'. Then I get to around the middle where both hands are going at it, and Im like 'sh*t, this is loco!'. Thing is, it seems to test you on so many different things! You have to be able to do fiddly passage work, wide arps, wide chords, scales, semi quavers in both hands, passage work while holding other notes in the same hand, octaves... ETC. It aint like 10-1 or 2, where you pretty much only have the one technique to worry about.

Its not like Liszt T' Etudes hard, but its certainly a very difficult piece to play. If anyone can play this even remotely well, then they have my grandest respect!

Humble, if you can play this after two months of experience, you are GOD. Infact, I dont even think that gives the accolade satisfactory weight. You are god's older and wiser brother!!!

SJ

PS. Sorry to any of the Christians for my bastfamy!

[humblemonkey]

Man, one of my friends is really into his guitar and never stops talking about Gibson LesPauls. What happened to yours SJ? Cherished to this day, or was it sold at a garage sale?

My gf has a book of all the Chopin preludes, so spent all day listening to an argerich recording of them whilst following the score. Well following it to a degree, haha. Brilliant stuff. I think once I've got the pieces I'm working on now under my belt, I'll give a few of them a spin. I sort've looked at no.4 and no.7 but I put those aside. Too much on my plate at once.

I'll definitely post how my lesson/five meetings go - probably with news of how ripped to shreds I was. But hopefully at least one will be willing to take me on. Better tidy myself up for it - I'm a disgrace.

Btw, asyncopated: the chimp playing pacman...what the heck??!  . 

[steve jones]

Man, one of my friends is really into his guitar and never stops talking about Gibson LesPauls. What happened to yours SJ? Cherished to this day, or was it sold at a garage sale?

My gf has a book of all the Chopin preludes, so spent all day listening to an argerich recording of them whilst following the score. Well following it to a degree, haha. Brilliant stuff. I think once I've got the pieces I'm working on now under my belt, I'll give a few of them a spin. I sort've looked at no.4 and no.7 but I put those aside. Too much on my plate at once.

I'll definitely post how my lesson/five meetings go - probably with news of how ripped to shreds I was. But hopefully at least one will be willing to take me on. Better tidy myself up for it - I'm a disgrace.

Btw, asyncopated: the chimp playing pacman...what the heck??!  . 

No, no, the Les Paul is still with me. Its sat on a stand right next to me while we speak! Id have to be in pretty hard times to sell it now.

Regarding the preludes, yeah, they are GREAT pieces. My favorite set is Pollini's. Argerich's set is a little bashful imo. No4 is easy, as is No7. Well, easy in the technical sense. No7 is more difficult to get the right sound though. Im currently working on No1 (my fave), No22 and No23. See, these are not as hard as they Etudes, but still plenty challenging enough for me.

No6 is another one you should look at. No3 is a good one too. Imo, its like a watered down Op10 No12 (in the technical department that is).

SJ

[maestoso]

No, no, the Les Paul is still with me. Its sat on a stand right next to me while we speak! Id have to be in pretty hard times to sell it now.


SJ

trade your les paul for an ibanez lol

[asyncopated]

Btw, asyncopated: the chimp playing pacman...what the heck??!  . 

This is to substantiate my theory that it is possible to teach a monkey to play the piano. I will even go further to say not having an opposing thumb is an advantage .  At least there is not thumb over/under issue.

Anyway, on a more serious note.  The prelude, although short, are substantial works of genius.  Think of it like this, Chopin must have written tons of short pieces, and he chooses to publish these as a body of his work, so he must think that they are really special.   

Argerich plays them fantastically.  Beautify lyric lines, not over the top and very sincere.  Good choice! 

Don't think teachers are there to rip you to shreds.  It's more of just a meeting to see whether you can work together.  I suppose if you have a moment to spare it's good to think about what you would like in a teacher, and how you think that he/she can help you develop musically.  It's also nice to see how different people treat music -- in this case you will have five examples.

later humblemonkey, and all the best.

[steve jones]

trade your les paul for an ibanez lol

Noooooo way! 

My Ibanez played like a dream but it broke unfortunately. Hey, I was thinking of getting one of the cheap end Satch special Ibanez's. Ever played one? Im not really into shredding so much, but I do need a 'pace' guitar!

SJ

[maestoso]

yeah i played one i found out i like fat necks vs the wizard necks or thinner necks. and i hate floating bridges. the best guitar i have ever owned(still do) is an s-classic it plays like a prs and has a gibson style bridge. as far as shredding yeah i agree i'm not much into it anymore a haunting slow melody is way more impressive than the 5th caprice!

[josephwang]

I hate to be discouraging, but I just wanted to point out that some of the pieces you mentioned are way too difficult for a beginner to even attempt. You mentioned that, after a week of playing, Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 3 didn't give you much difficulty... did you skip the middle section or something? My friend, who has been playing for 10+ years and is extremely technically and musically competent in my opinion, experienced great difficulty with perfecting this piece. Are you saying you can play it "without much difficulty" when it is quite a challenge even for advanced students? I'm having trouble believing what you're saying. Maybe you're not hearing yourself properly or something... but honestly, there is no way you can handle complex, professional-level pieces right now. Seriously, start with some very simple, beginner pieces, and be a little more honest with yourself.

[humblemonkey]

I looked at Chopin's etude op.10 no.3, and am not having too many problems with it.

"looked" and "am not having" being the operative words. That's all I've written about op.10 no.3. I did not say I had finished it. Or perfected it. I most certainly did skip the middle part  . But I will come back to that part next year sometime (hopefully).

[pianistimo]

find the teacher that DOES rip you to shreds.  'nice' teachers are not what you want.  develop tough skin.  take the hardest one!  so what if you cry yourself to sleep occasionally.  waaaaa.  you don't want to have the 'dream teacher.'  pats you on the head, constantly telling you 'very good, very good.'  consider it a compliment each time your playing is insulted.  be serious about the comment.  ask how to improve whatever it is.  and, generally just make a pest of yourself.  do not feel bad if the first couple of years you feel like you have been hazed over and over.  by the third year - you'll play fantastic!

[emill]

Hi humblemonkey,

To your enthusiam, i must say ... you can do it, that is to start with the harder pieces despite the caution being advised around here ... .... ..... (if you have his talent:

- please excuse this babbling, disoriented, proud father).

Even if you have, I'll still pay very close attention to what they are saying here especially from asyncopated.  The formula being advised is really nothing out of the blue. In fact it is a general formula applicable to most of any endeavor:

1.  Start with the basics and learn the correct way.
2.  Practice, practise and practise ... mere talent  is not enough.
3.  Learn appropriate theory and listen to the advise of the more experienced.

We learned the hard way and was especially confusing for my 10 year old kid.  He was introduced to the piano in early 2005 at age 9.  Since we were complete ignoramuses to piano playing  we allowed him to "tinker" with anything he wanted.  We also did not know how to choose a teacher.  Frankly looking back, I would say the first year was a "disaster".

When we enrolled him in a music extention program in a University here last February/06, his teacher had to spend about a month  to "undo" what he "learned" earlier. Up to now, many of his "mistakes" can still be traced to the improper way he learned his first steps in the piano. 

I think you are just as excited as my son was at the beginning ... he wanted to leap to the peaks. That is quite normal, as frankly going through some of the basic pacing is often stale and boring.  A good teacher, if one can afford it, would go a long way.  They can tailor a program which can "fast track" a student if he is capable. In this way it gives the student sufficient challenge and satisfaction.  This would be similar to an advanced or accelerated class in academics. 

Wishimg you good luck .........