Annoying thumb problem - help please

[henrah]

When playing scales, and anything really, my thumb is just a little bit louder than the other fingers and it creates odd accents, especially prevalent in scales where the thumb comes in after 3, then 4, then 3 etc. I have tried playing the fingers really loudly and playing the thumb very quietly, but this hasn't made a difference. The only way around it currently is to play an obvious accent every fourth note. I find it very hard to play a completely smooth scale, no accents in it whatsoever.

Can anyone offer me some advice to get my thumb more finger like and more controllable?
Thanks, Henrah

[hyrst]

I don't think this is the entire solution, but have you tried sitting up higher so your hands are higher above the keyboard?  It could be that you are playing with the side of your thumb rather than the part next to the nail. 

Thinking musically, so focusing on the groups of 4 and the tone of the note, is also more likely to help than jsut trying to play more softly with the thumb.

[henrah]

Well I actually added another chair to the two that I sit on already and have noticed some slight improvements (I prefer the chairs as they stay at that height because me and my dad share different bench heights and it's annoying having to change it every time).

I just thought of a method regarding what you said about 'thinking musicall' and the 'tone of the note', so I'll go try that out now.

Thanks,
Henrah

[henrah]

Doesn't seem to have made much difference. Hmph. I can stop the thumb accenting by adding dynamics to everything, constantly crescending or diminuending; but total and complete evenness is very hard. Between the fingers, that's fine, but when the thumb gets involved it shows itself up.
Henrah

[hyrst]

Well, we'll keep on trying different ideas.  There has got ot be a solution.

With your hands at a greater height above the keys, think about brushing your fingers gently towards yourself rather than pressing down into the keys.  This should soften the tone.  You can start this by almost curling your fingers into a fist as you play each one - and using a sort of semi-detached action instead of looking for the legato.  (If this action helps, more speed and relaxation will overcome the non-legato sound after some practice - but don't use the staccato technique of lifting your hand after playing the key.  You need to keep your hand relaxed and flowing over the tops of the keys.)

Did you check which part of your thumb you are using?  If you use the side of the thumb, the only action is downwards - which is going to be heavy.  Use enough chairs that when you hold your hands in you usual position, and relax them, the thumb naturally falls onto the keys at the top, pointed side of the nail.  This is your starting position. 

Also, since you are aware of the louder thumb, this awareness will build on itself - we play what we hear inside.  It is important that you keep focused on the groups of 4. 

Another thing to check is the motion in your wrist.  Are you following through enough with your wrist when you use your thumbs under?  The uneveness could rather be the result of a stiff wrist and uneven timing - use your wrist as a guide to flow across the tops of the notes, moving your hands from side to side as you place your thumb under. 

I hope something here helps.

[henrah]

Ah yes, stiff wrist! This accent only occurs during scales really, and thinking about it now I've been playing scales with a very straight and horizontally flat hand i.e. it's all in the fingers, which I guess is bringing out the accent in the thumb.

Also the stroking method you mentioned sounds like it might help also, but I don't quite understand how that'll work with my thumb. I'll see what happens when I go to the keys in a couple of minutes and get back to you. I'll also take special care to play on the nail part rather than the flat side.

We shall solve this!!
Henrah

[hyrst]

It might not help, but my suggestion to kind of stroke the keys is to change the direction of pressure - stroking instead of pressing down.  This might help to change the type of pressure the thumb is using as well - by following through in the direction of the fingers.  Just an experiment.  I find playing this way is a lot smoother.

Have you had any success yet?

[henrah]

Well I don't quite understand how I can keep the wrist 'flowing' when playing four octave scales. Do you mean making a flow movement every four notes, the beginning of each movement giving the accent?

So far, no success in ridding the accent. When you say stroke with the thumb i.e. changing the direction, do you mean to do this with a very high hand so that the thumb is angled downwards when just touching the keys, ensuring that the down movement of the thumb (in relative terms) is actually a stroke of the keys? I can evisage this right here, holding my hand quite high. Then my entire method of playing is altered, and I've never seen anyone play the way I'm holding my hands right now.

Would you be able to show me in a video exactly what you mean? I feel I'll be able to understand you better once I see it in action.

Thanks, Henrah

[zheer]

Can anyone offer me some advice to get my thumb more finger like and more controllable?
Thanks, Henrah

  How to practice scales according to Chopin, as far as i know Chopin would instruct his students to start with the B major scale, the scale would then be practiced staccato with a soft touch , staccato with a strong touch, portando with a soft touch, then with a strong touch. He would then play a scale legato with a soft touch then a strong touch, ie P and MF.
A scale would then be played with dynamics, gradually getting louder going up and getting softer coming down. This study would first be done at a slow or modert tempo and only played at a faster pace once the student has masterd the very basics. Chopin described the motion of the hand as similar to a glissando, ie the constant side-ways motion.
    I can think of many other things to consider in the practice of scales but it is difficult to describe on computer. Good luck.

[hyrst]

What I am trying to explain is essentially like Zheer said, it'sthe same principle.  Unfortunately, I do not have a video comera and I know it is really hard to explain and understand using words.

The flowing motion is based on the relaxed hands supported by the wrists, almost suspended as if your fingers are hanging off you hands rather than doing all the work.  Your wrists guide your playing over the notes (movement up and down the piano is done from your wrists rather than your fingers) while your fingers grab at the keys.  It's a matter of taking weight off from all keys, not just from your thumb.  Again, it's hard to explain and I'm not sure I am doing a good job.  If you take enough weight off, you will get a slightly non-legato touch to begin with. 

No, I am not meaning to lift your wrists up high and play with thumb pointed downwards.  Your wrists still need to be fairly flat - it's a change in finger motion and lower arm suspension.  If you are sitting high enough now, it's more a change in thinking.  Don't make your fingers do all the work - each part has its own function.

Sorry I don't know how to make this any clearer.  I hope you find a solution.

[atticus]

Hi Henrah,

Have you tried practicing the scales with pauses just before you play the thumb that has been passed under? 

For example, in C major in the RH:

1) Play 1,2,3 (CDE) then pause and pass the thumb under and have it over F (but don't play it)
2) Then play 1,2,3,4,5 (FGABC) making sure that the thumb is not accented when playing the F.  Since the thumb will already be in position above the key it is easy not to accent it.  Maybe practicing this way would help once you go to speed things up?

Good luck,
atticus

[henrah]

Ok atticus, I'll give it a try.

Zheer, what does portando mean? I can't find a definition of it on the web. I assume it's going to be either something like staccato or legato, so for now I'll practice like you said in just staccato and legato for now.

Hyrst, I'm still having trouble understanding you. But, I think I understand the basic meaning. I'll experiment with relaxing the fingers completely and moving the wrist up and down to feel the fingers stay on the keys. I'll then see if I can get the fingers to move just enough to play the key and then relax, returning to their original position by the key pushing them up. Might this be getting close to what you had in mind?

Thanks again guys, you're so helpful! Let's hope we can conquer this problem!
Henrah

[zheer]

Ok atticus, I'll give it a try.

Zheer, what does portando mean? I can't find a definition of it on the web.

   The notes are playd detached, so somewhere between staccato and lagato. To play portando, keep your finger tips on the keys just remeber not to join the notes, it is different to staccato. BTW scales must be played thumbs under , and only thunmbe over at an advanced leve, the thumbs over is the Liszt way of playing, this needs demonstration.

[henrah]

Don't worry, I already know about the thumb over technique. That will also take a lot of practising to avoid the accent.

Thanks,
Henrah

[counterpoint]

My advice for thumb problems in scales:

play the scale v-e-r-y   s-l-o-w , take attention to the movement of arm, hand and fingers (no jerky movements!!!) and to the sound you hear. If there are any banging notes, the key is pressed too fast, so move the finger/hand/arm slower at this position.

[steve jones]

When playing scales, and anything really, my thumb is just a little bit louder than the other fingers and it creates odd accents, especially prevalent in scales where the thumb comes in after 3, then 4, then 3 etc. I have tried playing the fingers really loudly and playing the thumb very quietly, but this hasn't made a difference. The only way around it currently is to play an obvious accent every fourth note. I find it very hard to play a completely smooth scale, no accents in it whatsoever.

Can anyone offer me some advice to get my thumb more finger like and more controllable?
Thanks, Henrah

I have the exact same issue so Im glad you asked mate - when playing scales my thumb seems to accent slightly. Makes a really smooth fast scale hard to achieve..

SJ

[hyrst]

I just realised what I said that sounded like the complete change in thumb technique:
"stroking instead of pressing down.  This might help to change the type of pressure the thumb is using as well - by following through in the direction of the fingers. " (below)

Sorry, I did not say that very well!  It implied using the point of the thumb towards yourself, but this is not what I meant.  I actually meant more that the whole hand uses a grabbing, stroking action (very slight) as if gently patting a pet dog.  The action produces a softer tone from all fingers and a more relaxed hand, both of which will reduce excess downward speeds and pressures.  It is easier to selectively increase pressure than to reduce it - as you found before when you could cover the accent by increasing the volume of the other notes. 

[henrah]

Aha, now I get what you mean! I remember seeing a chinese girl play like this and to be honest it looked really odd and I felt she was being very 'Lang Lang' if that can be used as an expression nowadays. But I totally get what you mean, and I'll definately give it a shot!

But how can this be done in a fast scale? I mean, the thumb itself can't be 'stroked' without a movement of the hand, and this movement could be very hard to do when the hand needs to reset itself to play the next thumb. I can foresee the accent happening again due to the resetting of the hand movement and the thumb being the first to be played after this. But, I haven't tried it yet, so don't take my words as experience. I shall give it a go.
Henrah

[hyrst]

What ends up happening using this technique and building speed is that the movement becomes almost non-existent, but the way you press the note changes - it becomes softer and your hands should be a lot less tense, which prevents the jerkiness that worsens accentuated notes.  You might not be comfortable with this differnet kind of action, though - which would mean it woudln't work.

Another thing you could try is another mental approach, rather than a change of technique, but it sometimes helps.  (The thumb can end up accented because you are aware of it, and we tend to play what we are aware of inside - what we feel and what we hear.)  Try being aware of the finger that should be playing the first note in every group of 4.  Be extra aware of how that finger feels when you press the note more strongly.   It is an interesting feeling and exercise, because the dominant finger is used twice and then moves on to the next finger - so you take turns concentrating on 2, then 3, then 4, etc.  Sometimes, the misplaced accent takes care of itself when you change your focus like this.  This can also fix subtle problems with rhythm patterns.

[henrah]

Y'know I've realised that I already do that stroking technique to a certain extent! It's very good with controlling volume when jumping quickly to a note or group of notes and having to play it quietly.

Fortunately the thumb problem only happens during scales, and only if I don't purposefully accent the beginning of every four notes.

Thanks for the help!
Henrah