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My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ? (Read 4385 times)

Offline ilovemusic

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My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
« on: January 23, 2004, 01:27:23 PM »
Since I got some comments on my practise approach, I strongly feel I should elaborate on this a bit more.

I wrote:

My approach is trying to play insanely difficult pieces (for my level), and staying at it. My "projects" are: Liebestraume 3 (focussing on this one), La Campanella, Rigoletto (Liszt),  Elegie (rach), 10.1, 10.12, noct post. c#m (Chopin). I recently discovered the Patrarca sonets and I will focus on  sonet 104 when I more or less finish Liebestraume (may) .

Why would this be ridiculous ? Of course, I don't spend all my time on these works. There are more simple things I play: pop-songs, jazz or musical-songs, scales, arpeggio's,  practically everything I can get my hands on. I do all these things to prepare myself for the pieces I actually want to play (the pieces above).

I learn these works by looking at a few measures and try to play them. For example: I first played right hand of the first half page of La Campanella, and I thought it would be insanely difficult to combine this with the left hand (4 months ago). Then I practised the arpeggio's. Then I combined them. Working in this fashion have now learned the first 3 pages and the last page of the piece, and continue to work to complete (taking as much time as I need). Months ago I have been asking questions on the trillers needed for this piece later on, and I continue to work towards this point in this pieces. If it doesn't work one day, I'll try again the next.

I think in another 4 month I can play Liebestraume, a piece I started in september. I like working in this way, although some patience is required.

Of course I take lessons to correct bad habits, mistakes, performance etc.

Hey, I'll let you know next year if this approach works...
If it doesn't I will change my strategy, of course.


Joost.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #1 on: January 23, 2004, 11:28:14 PM »
Learning challenging pieces will help your technique, no doubt.  However, I would suggest that you refrain from trying something that is that hard that it might frustrate you.  I first tried learning Rachmaninoff's Second Sonata after only taking 1 year of lessons, and found it so difficult that I became frustrated and stopped.  Just a couple months ago I picked it up again, I can do much better now.  But the point is that frustration is not good.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #2 on: January 24, 2004, 12:12:26 AM »
It depends on what you want to accomplish with your playing i guess.
However, (if you want to play for people) i think that performing a less harder piece good, is better than performing a hard piece badly. Unless you have an audience who's ignorant about classical music...  :-/


Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #3 on: January 24, 2004, 03:34:07 AM »
That is very true.  But, if you can play the hard pieces well, then go ahead and do so.

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #4 on: January 24, 2004, 04:14:02 PM »
Quote
Learning challenging pieces will help your technique, no doubt.  However, I would suggest that you refrain from trying something that is that hard that it might frustrate you.  I first tried learning Rachmaninoff's Second Sonata after only taking 1 year of lessons, and found it so difficult that I became frustrated and stopped.  Just a couple months ago I picked it up again, I can do much better now.  But the point is that frustration is not good.



That I know, but the only frustration I have had was when I tried to play consolation 3, I find it very difficult to play the rythm correct, and when I play it correct not to make is sound like some boogie-woogie.

I think I am far for being frustated by trying these pieces, au contraire. It only takes lot's of patience, and I somehow manage to stay motivated.

Somehow trying something really hard (but which eventually be very beatifull) motivates me. I do think my teacher may get fed by helping me polish the same pieces every week. But, hey, I pay for this....

Offline buck

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #5 on: January 26, 2004, 08:12:14 PM »
Agree with Liszmaninopin & nad.

No harm trying to play hard pieces, you actually learn alot faster, though might not be able to play the pieces properly.  (I picked up some tricks trying Chopin's nocturne op.9 no.2 while in grade 2).  The frustration can be a great put-off though.  

Meantime, most impt. to do the best in your assigned pieces for your current grade.  slow & steady.   :)

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #6 on: January 26, 2004, 09:26:32 PM »
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No harm trying to play hard pieces, you actually learn alot faster, though might not be able to play the pieces properly.


Quite. It is not only a matter of technology, but it's also a matter of musicality.
Patience is a virtue, by that i do not mean being patient because you learn two measures per week. For your current grade you're not exactly studying the right pieces. To do pieces that are on your current grade, and do your best at them is what i rather mean by patience.
But then again, it depends on what you want to accomplish  :)

But if you want to move people with your music, touch their hearts, it really isn't merely about stunning them with an extremely different piece. It's about the musical expression which is harder to learn and develop, especially with your projects. It is also about your own interpretation of the piece.
Well, that's what i think.

nad

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #7 on: January 26, 2004, 09:32:29 PM »
Nad has a point; if you are spending too much time, "two measures per week," then you're probably learning something too difficult.  One should pick a piece that provides a challenge and develops new techniques.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #8 on: January 26, 2004, 09:38:58 PM »
yeh, to be honest, i think you're in over your head (erm hope i used the expression correct...) maybe you'll learn the piece eventually, but i don't think it will do much good in your whole development as pianist if you know what i mean.

Nad

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #9 on: January 26, 2004, 10:13:05 PM »
It depends what levels of pieces you already play.  For example, when I already played Chopin's Nocturne #1, op. 9 and Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique, Liebestraum wasn't hard at all.  If I had tried it when still playing chopsticks then I might have had more trouble.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #10 on: January 26, 2004, 10:47:12 PM »
If i'm not mistaken, the liebestraum, rigoletto and la campanella are his first pieces.

Nad

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #11 on: January 26, 2004, 11:13:25 PM »
First pieces?!  Just maybe the Liebestraum is possible-but Rigoletto and La Campanella as first pieces?  Well, if you can do it; that would certainly be amazing.  Actually, I might suggest that you try something other than the Rigoletto.  There are other pieces that have more beauty, Rigoletto seems like an awful lot of glissandos and scales to me.  Maybe you should try a Chopin etude-very helpful to ones technique.

Offline Lilo

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #12 on: January 27, 2004, 10:29:51 AM »
Liebestraum...la campanella... rigoletto...
all of these are really hard pieces -liebestraum is a little easier.
You should not learn pieces this way ; if you wanna begin some of Liszt's pieces, try "paysage"... or do the 1st Consolation.
I think you're wasting your time. When you study Liszt's pieces, you should be able to sight read, and then spend hours working on their interpretation.
They are insanely difficult -nothing to compare with pop-songs. Learning 2 measures per week, you will never play them properly.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #13 on: January 27, 2004, 12:02:44 PM »
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When you study Liszt's pieces, you should be able to sight read, and then spend hours working on their interpretation


Sight reading is one of the most important abilities one must possess in order for learning hard pieces like advanced Liszt. You should be able to play prima vista, let's take for example Brahms intermezzo. If you can't there are too many factors on which you have to work and focus, in order to perform such advanced pieces well. I think.
I think before starting such pieces, one should be musical mature for it. It isn't simply about playing some parts louder of softer, there's much more involved.
Also, by underestimating these pieces, i doubt your practise approach will contribute to your desire of becoming a pianist. Like i said before, i doubt it will do you any good in your whole development as piano player.
But well, if you aren't serious about it anyway, go ahead and do as you please. This advice and comments was only meant if you're really trying to make something of it.

Nad

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #14 on: January 27, 2004, 12:40:18 PM »
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Nad has a point; if you are spending too much time, "two measures per week," then you're probably learning something too difficult.  One should pick a piece that provides a challenge and develops new techniques.


I learn 2 measures of week for about 15 pieces, so that's 30 measures a weak, or about 2 pages of music, that's not bad at all, I think.


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If i'm not mistaken, the liebestraum, rigoletto and la campanella are his first pieces.

Nad



Well... I can play fur Elise (not so well, and I am not going to perfect it because the tune is anoying) , some pop tunes, and I also work on the Consolations.

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It isn't simply about playing some parts louder of softer, there's much more involved. Also, by underestimating these pieces, i doubt your practise approach will contribute to your desire of becoming a pianist. Like i said before, i doubt it will do you any good in your whole development as piano player.
But well, if you aren't serious about it anyway, go ahead and do as you please. This advice and comments was only meant if you're really trying to make something of it.

Nad


Oh yes it IS about playing some part harder and louder, and slower and faster, nothing more and nothing less.  
My practise approach contributes greatly to my desire, because I think it is a fun way (but I don't quite understand what you mean by this). Of course it will do me some good as a piano player: it teaches me to sight read, and to play with a certain technique. And since this is not an approach that is used often, nobody knows how effictive it is...And: I am dead serious, and absolutely not underestimating the work of Liszt.

I know SO MANY pianist who had lessons for 5 or more years who can not play ANYTHING ! Only those simpler pieces, and I am not going to wait for this long...

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Actually, I might suggest that you try something other than the Rigoletto.  There are other pieces that have more beauty, Rigoletto seems like an awful lot of glissandos and scales to me.  Maybe you should try a Chopin etude-very helpful to ones technique.


Rigoletto is indeed a lot of scales. I'd rather play this then practising scales (which I do to).  And I also work on some Chopin etudes.

I refuse the work on something that doesn't apeal to me. Next november I will let you hear some playing, and a posteriori we can all draw conclusions from this, and see if my self-concocted method works. And in the end you can't argue with succes (or failure). (The brute force approach has worked before in getting other things done).  I would rather have comments like: you are probably insane, but if you can pull it of it would be impessive.

But: if anyone has some suggestions about easy yet very beautifull music, I am well susceptible for suggestions (did not like the first piece form Schumann's child scenes...) (and I HATE barok).  

Offline dreamaurora

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #15 on: January 27, 2004, 01:48:58 PM »
Quote


I learn 2 measures of week for about 15 pieces, so that's 30 measures a weak, or about 2 pages of music, that's not bad at all, I think.




Well... I can play fur Elise (not so well, and I am not going to perfect it because the tune is anoying) , some pop tunes, and I also work on the Consolations.


Oh yes it IS about playing some part harder and louder, and slower and faster, nothing more and nothing less.  
My practise approach contributes greatly to my desire, because I think it is a fun way (but I don't quite understand what you mean by this). Of course it will do me some good as a piano player: it teaches me to sight read, and to play with a certain technique. And since this is not an approach that is used often, nobody knows how effictive it is...And: I am dead serious, and absolutely not underestimating the work of Liszt.

I know SO MANY pianist who had lessons for 5 or more years who can not play ANYTHING ! Only those simpler pieces, and I am not going to wait for this long...


Rigoletto is indeed a lot of scales. I'd rather play this then practising scales (which I do to).  And I also work on some Chopin etudes.

I refuse the work on something that doesn't apeal to me. Next november I will let you hear some playing, and a posteriori we can all draw conclusions from this, and see if my self-concocted method works. And in the end you can't argue with succes (or failure). (The brute force approach has worked before in getting other things done).  I would rather have comments like: you are probably insane, but if you can pull it of it would be impessive.

But: if anyone has some suggestions about easy yet very beautifull music, I am well susceptible for suggestions (did not like the first piece form Schumann's child scenes...) (and I HATE barok).  


I apologise in advance to what I am going to say. I am going to be very honest in what I thought about you.

What you have said and practiced so far smack full of pride and arrogance. I have met many late-starters and impetous young people like you who think that by playing some difficult pieces fast early make them somekind of a virtuoso. What a foolish thought is this, the way you talk, you simply refused to heed the advice of many mature pianists here who have actually studied piano seriously under proper guidance of watchful teachers. So what you can play Rigoletto or La campanella, are you serving music or are you serving your big ego ? I am a late starter myself and have been learning piano for 3 years, and I learn the hard way that there is no way you can skip the basic steps and foundation, you simply are not going to make music that way.

The way I see you are going, you are extremely impatient and egoistic. Sure you may love music, and many people I know love music, but how many are actually willing to go through the PROCESS of making music ? You are simply unwilling to go through the process. Remember, Rome is not built in a day, and you are trying obviously to build your pianistic Rome in a day. You are building your house without a foundation. I watched Americal Idol Part III last week and there was this contestand Rasheeda who couldn't carry a tune and insisted that she's the next big thing. She went on to sing in a restaurant to prove to the judges that people think that she's big , only to be humiliated by the patrons that left halfway. Do you want to be like her ? Do you have to wait for other people in real life to hear you play and tell you that you have spent so much hours practicing only to achieve plenty of bad habits, bad musicality ?

Ponder what I just said, and yes , stop learning all these pieces please, I could not imagine how they would sound played by a complete beginner at piano. And if you do being taught by a teacher, I hope you sincerely change your teacher since apparently your current teacher is not helping you to guide you to correct path. And please, I would rather hear "people who have learnt 5 years and could not play anything", at least I know that they have gone through the steps.


Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #16 on: January 27, 2004, 02:29:06 PM »
Quote
I learn 2 measures of week for about 15 pieces, so that's 30 measures a weak, or about 2 pages of music, that's not bad at all, I think.


15 pieces?? omg... two measures a week for each piece...?? Surely it's 2 pages a week but what's the point?! I do understand that you only want to play "the good, hard and beautiful pieces"  but you want too much too fast. Impatient.. Sorry to say this but i do think that is ridiculous...

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Well... I can play fur Elise (not so well, and I am not going to perfect it because the tune is anoying)

I could play it after half a year and i could play it perfectly without any effort... You're trying La Campanella but you even can't play Fur Elise well?!


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Oh yes it IS about playing some part harder and louder, and slower and faster, nothing more and nothing less.


That's it? That's your understanding of musicality? ....  ::)

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it teaches me to sight read


Advanced Liszt is supposed to teach you sight reading? If you'd work your way through the Thompson's series(which you should finish in less than a day), it's much more effective to develop that ability. If you couldn't work through that series in less than a day...

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...And: I am dead serious, and absolutely not underestimating the work of Liszt.  


What i also mean by underestimating is: your view of music is so black and white. Play the notes on the score, change speed/soft/loud now and then and that's it? At least, that's how you put it. It's not really Liszt-worthy i have to say..
Isn't music supposed to be colourful? I'd say your whole approach on music is kinda black and white. For example:
Quote
and I HATE barok
What a short-sighted remark that is...


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I know SO MANY pianist who had lessons for 5 or more years who can not play ANYTHING ! Only those simpler pieces, and I am not going to wait for this long...


Some people have driving lessons for ages and still can't manage it.. What's your point? Some people have talent for it, some people don't. And if you think you're talented why compare yourself to the people who're not? You don't compare apples with bananas, right?

Quote
The brute force approach has worked before in getting other things done


Why approach this delicate music, the performance of such fine art so brutally?
Btw, the virtuoso parts in La Campanella for example; virtuosity isn't about brute force as many many people think....

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Next november I will let you hear some playing, and a posteriori we can all draw conclusions from this


Yes, you should perform it during a masterclass of a teacher from conservatory. I've had a masterclass from Marcel Baudet from the Amsterdam Conservatory (Sweelinck). You really ought to try and see what feedback you'll receive.

And as for dreamaurora's reply; i have to completely agree.

nad

PS i started at age 9 (which some people consider late..) and i sure know what dreamaurora meant by going through the process.

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #17 on: January 27, 2004, 04:12:36 PM »
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I could play it after half a year and i could play it perfectly without any effort... You're trying La Campanella but you even can't play Fur Elise well?!




Well, that's good for you. I do not like to work on it.
I can play the first part of Liebestraum well. If you will: consider this as my first piece. I am now working on my second  pieces, which is the next part.

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Oh yes it IS about playing some part harder and louder, and slower and faster, nothing more and nothing less.  

That's it? That's your understanding of musicality? ....




That's not my understanding of musicality, but that's what you do when interpreting. I do not say it is easy. It's actually pretty hard. But in the end: yes, it all boils down to pressing keys.


Quote


Advanced Liszt is supposed to teach you sight reading? If you'd work your way through the Thompson's series(which you should finish in less than a day), it's much more effective to develop that ability. If you couldn't work through that series in less than a day...




No, I do a little bit more than this....  I also work my way through the Bach chorals, and a book of beatle songs, and a book of broadway songs, and the songs I need to practise for my singing lessons, and the songs I need to practise for my Jazz courses.


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Play the notes on the score, change speed/soft/loud now and then and that's it? At least, that's how you put it. It's not really Liszt-worthy i have to say..


Yes, it's all about the black and the white keys. That's it. Furthermore you have absolutely not a clue about my view of music. By stating: playing piano is nothing more then pressing the right buttons is just as saying that beating the world record on a 10 km is nothing more then putting one foot before the other, climbing the Eiger north face is nothing more then climbing up, and winning the nobel price in physics is doing the right calculations. I think it is rather ignorant of you to think that I am underestemating the difficulties of making music. Yes, if you completely copy a performance (which is impossible anyway), you could call this making music.


Quote


I'd say your whole approach on music is kinda black and white. For example: Quote:and I HATE barok  
What a short-sighted remark that is...



Come on: you with just a minimal amount of thinking you can get my point, don't you ? Besides, you know exactly how I opine with respect to music. Let's try again: I have yet to encounter barok-style music which that appeals to me. Or: you could say: in general, I do not like blabla... I think it is a bit pretentious to draw these conclusions from those few statements I made, especially since you know better.    

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Some people have driving lessons for ages and still can't manage it.. What's your point? Some people have talent for it, some people don't. And if you think you're talented why compare yourself to the people who're not? You don't compare apples with bananas, right?



So my point is: I am not totally convinced the method
followed  by most people (premiraly young children) is effective, or at least for me.  The background I have now are COMPLETELY different as compared to an eight year old. It would probably be wrong to assume the best method would equal. I always think of a way to accomplish things for myself, and choose a path. Usually an approach  totally different then most people would take. But, hey I am me, can't help that.  I usually take the masorchistic approach. I do not consider myself talented, but I think what one fool can do, another one can.

As for the apples and banana's, they are both fruit, full of vitamines, and both can be used in deserts. I like to eat both.

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Why approach this delicate music, the performance of such fine art so brutally? Btw, the virtuoso parts in La Campanella for example; virtuosity isn't about brute force as many many people think....



Time and again you do not understand the point I am making. Brute force approach: choose goal, work hard, accomplish goal. I like to figure things out myself. Why are you so convinced my approach is destined to fail.
I do not know the best way to learn the instrument but I think for playing very important prerequisities:

1) learn to read music fast (I work on this very,very hard)
2) Finger control / technique (idem)

And then you need to know/feel how to make it sound.


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So what you can play Rigoletto or La campanella, are you serving music or are you serving your big ego ? I am a late starter myself and have been learning piano for 3 years, and I learn the hard way that there is no way you can skip the basic steps and foundation, you simply are not going to make music that way.



Neither, I am just having some fun myself. You do not know a thing about me, my (musical) background, or whatever, yet you do not refrain to call me pride, arrogant,  egoistic, foolish, big ego, impatient.
That's some judgement... This is the first time I have such things thrown in my face. What you are saying about me tells me  something about yourself.
HOW can I be egoistic: explain.

The process of making music ? I have played guitar for
8 years, and I have been taking singing lessons for 2, does this not give me some background ?

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Rome is not built in a day, and you are trying obviously to build your pianistic Rome in a day.
You are building your house without a foundation.


This is simply not true: I practise muchmuchmuchmuch more then those pieces, which are the ultimate goals. And I do not think in days.


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Do you have to wait for other people in real life to hear you play and tell you that you have spent so much hours practicing only to achieve plenty of bad habits, bad musicality ?
And if you do being taught by a teacher, I hope you sincerely change your teacher since apparently your current teacher is not helping you to guide you to correct path.



The bad habits....  since I make progress slowly, I get a lot of feedback on those few things I finish. I like my teacher very much, and she did think the approach was somewhat unconventional. The experiment will end after a year, if current approach is not fruitfull.


Hey, I'll never be a Cziffra or Hamelin, my only goal would be to entertain me and some other people.
I am deeply moved by the concern and the attempts to show me the right way, but the goal is set and the path is chosen. If the outcome will be accomplishment or utter failure, time will tell. Now I will stop defending myself on this issue, because I have said enough.


Offline dreamaurora

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #18 on: January 27, 2004, 04:37:28 PM »
Just an advice, never ever assume you play well. Heck, I can play lots of pieces from memory including stuff such as Chopin Ballade no 3 and Pagodas, but I don't even dare to claim to play those well. Any piano students that claim he/she can play well is a proud person, I can attest to that. If you are truly serious into making music, you will realise that the hardest part in learning a piece comes after you finish up the notes and play them up to tempo.

Suffice to say, only time will tell whether your method will succeed or not. But if your goal is just to entertain your friends who are not really classical savvy, I guess you will do just fine. However, if you want to truly make music that is true and worthy of the text, I can now tell you that you will not succeed. Sometimes, a lot of people just want to continue in their illusions of grandeur, and when the reality check comes, they become very bitter and disapointed with themselves.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #19 on: January 27, 2004, 04:45:37 PM »
i have to add; some comments weren't meant that seriously, i guess i didn't make that clear enough..

Actually, when i wrote that post i hadn't seen dreamaurora's post yet and actually what she said was also what i wanted to point out, only i tried it in a different way.
So maybe you should read that post once more. Dreamaurora has good points there. Like you can't skip the basic steps and foundation. And we know, because we've been there.
Many people like yourself or people for example who play in rockbands hoping they'll break through or whatever, simply won't bring the necessary offers like going through the whole process, what dreamaurora already pointed out. that's the whole point

Btw i did not say you're going to fail, i said already maybe that you'll be able to play the pieces next year but the whole approach just isn't that valuable, since you are missing critical parts in the process.
Btw it is a given fact that when you reach a certain age, it is very difficult to get your sight reading skills right or even getting them. It's just an advantage when you start young. But if you miss that advantage it doesn't mean you can just skip all the important basic steps and foundation.
That's also why i think your approach isn't a good one.

Only your practise approach is being questioned and as you implied yourself by the title of this topic, it is to many pianists a ridiculous approach. Not only pianists on this forum, i also refer to other pianists i know, who're studying piano seriously under proper guidance of watchful and critical teachers.

So, read the post of dreamaurora, use the critics in a good way. I'm not going to say anything further because i believe you still do not understand why so many pianists and great teachers do not approve with "your" (You're not the first one who's trying to learn something the way you do, there are so many people who act just the same) approach. Except for the fact i base that on talks with those people, and talks with prodigies even, i also base these comments on experience of my own and of others. There's no way of making a good musician with this approach.  That's why i said some posts ago: it depends on what you wish to accomplish. That's also what i meant with being serious about this piano 'business'.
Like dreamaurora said:
Quote
However, if you want to truly make music that is true and worthy of the text, I can now tell you that you will not succeed.


nad

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #20 on: January 27, 2004, 04:45:57 PM »
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Just an advice, never ever assume you play well.


Did I ?

Offline eddie92099

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #21 on: January 27, 2004, 11:02:11 PM »
You are wasting your time. That's all I have to say. The reasons have been pointed out. I just want to support them,
Ed

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #22 on: January 27, 2004, 11:35:10 PM »
Perhaps instead of trying pieces that both sound difficult and are in fact difficult, try something more moderate.  I have heard beginners occasionally play pieces that are difficult, but almost without exception they badly mess the piece up.  I'd rather hear a simple piece well done than a mangled mess of a difficult piece; and I would venture that most pianists probably feel the same way.

Offline CloUd^-^

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #23 on: January 28, 2004, 05:49:07 PM »
hey take it easy guys....ok here is a piece of advice...i personally feel that ur too ambitious...u should take things easy here..like wat dreamaura said...ur building a house with no foundation...yes u might be able to play those pieces real well...with all the dynamics and even articulation correctly...but...wat u will lack is the tone quality...y do u think pianists practice for so many years...cause they need to develope their tone quality...y is it that some pianists r famous while some r not?its cause of the difference in their touch..guess u will really need to re-evaluate ur way of approach....if not u will end up picking up lots of bad habits...playing pieces isn't as easy u think...even simple pieces r difficult...to ensure that evey note's touch is correct...its not as easy as u think!BE PATIENT!!....everybody will become a famous pianist if piano playing was like u think it is!~ think over what i have just said... ;)

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #24 on: January 28, 2004, 06:05:55 PM »
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to ensure that evey note's touch is correct...its not as easy as u think!BE PATIENT!!....everybody will become a famous pianist if piano playing was like u think it is!~ think over what i have just said... ;)


But I only have an electrical piano :(. When my sight reading skill are o.k. I might actually try much more simple works when I read better, but know I have to memorize everything, and I rather memorize something interesting. Next year I'll buy a piano, and start working on the different ways of touching. Until then I am basically trying to get my technique up to snuff. What's wrong with this ?

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #25 on: January 28, 2004, 06:08:08 PM »
I don't know what your electric piano feels like, but in my experience I find it much more difficult to play well on an electric piano.  If you want to strengthen your technique, you really should have a regular piano.

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #26 on: January 28, 2004, 06:40:38 PM »
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I don't know what your electric piano feels like, but in my experience I find it much more difficult to play well on an electric piano.  If you want to strengthen your technique, you really should have a regular piano.


I know ! But for now:  that's impossible.  It's a world of difference. I have a yamaha p-120, which is alright, but I always have to get used to the grand piano my teacher has: sounds sooooo much nicer. I will buy a piano after the summer.  I practise softly and with headphones often, which is very humane considering the neighbours.

Fun:  I can play chorals on a organ with it, and the thing has some other sexy sounds as well, which is quite entertaining.

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #27 on: January 28, 2004, 06:47:25 PM »
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I don't know what your electric piano feels like, but in my experience I find it much more difficult to play well on an electric piano.  If you want to strengthen your technique, you really should have a regular piano.


Practising technique like arpeggio's etc can be done quite well on a digital piano, but working on the musical expression is difficult because there's a limited number of samples a key. It is sensitive to touch but that sensitivity is limited by the samples. 100 samples a key seems like a lot but isn't. That's why it always tends to sound the same. I used to have a real piano but unfortenately i'll have to practise on a digital one for quite some time. When i have my lesson, which is on a grand bechstein piano, i always need to 'warm up' so i can (mentally) switch over to the toucher of a real piano.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #28 on: January 28, 2004, 07:09:48 PM »
It's been a while since I've played on an electric piano.  It was actually a junky electric piano, so perhaps I'm not being fair to them.  But I remember that the thing's keys were so light that they were extremely difficult to control.  It did make fun elephant, lion, and bongo noises, though!

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #29 on: January 28, 2004, 07:54:35 PM »
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It's been a while since I've played on an electric piano.  It was actually a junky electric piano, so perhaps I'm not being fair to them.  But I remember that the thing's keys were so light that they were extremely difficult to control.  It did make fun elephant, lion, and bongo noises, though!


lol, i think you played on a keyboard!! Those keys are extremely light indeed! But what i mean is also referred to as a clavinova. These keys are heavier. But it's still weird, and you can't feel the sound vibrate through the keys and they aren't made of wood either. If you have an advanced model the sound is better too. But still... compared to a real piano...  :(

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #30 on: January 28, 2004, 08:49:18 PM »
The best thing I can say about keyboards is that you can get a drum rythm going, create a pattern of organ chords, and then accompany it with anything you want.
They had one of those clavinova things at a local piano store, but I didn't play it; I was too preoccupied playing on their real pianos to pay much attention.  Can you get headphones for a clavinova?

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #31 on: January 28, 2004, 09:16:08 PM »
yes, and when i practise i prefer to use headphones, at least it sounds like something then  ;D so last saturday i played the piano at like 2.30 am LOL
but.. when i have money enough and a good place i will buy a real one.. I've had a real one for at least 10 yrs, and i practise on this one since sept. '03. But the headphones are handy.
When i had to buy a digital one i had a hard time not to pay attention to the real piano's  :( because i wouldn't like the clavinova's enough then.. Oh well, it's a sad story anyway..

Offline eddie92099

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #32 on: January 28, 2004, 09:55:51 PM »
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It is sensitive to touch but that sensitivity is limited by the samples. 100 samples a key seems like a lot but isn't.


Rachmaninov was once approached to make a piano roll recording on the latest version that was available. The recording technician told him that this new piano roll could record 50 different levels of dynamics on each note, to which Rachmaninov replied "but I have 51",
Ed

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #33 on: January 28, 2004, 10:01:41 PM »
They don't even use those roll pianos any more except for novelty, do they?  This reminds  me, often I don't think Rachmaninoff gets enough credit for piano skill.  When people mention favorites, he's almost never mentioned, but when I listen to his old, fuzzy recordings they strike me as very intelligent with a flawless technique.  Has anybody else noticed this?

Offline nad

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #34 on: January 28, 2004, 10:02:50 PM »
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Rachmaninov was once approached to make a piano roll recording on the latest version that was available. The recording technician told him that this new piano roll could record 50 different levels of dynamics on each note, to which Rachmaninov replied "but I have 51",
Ed


LOL  ;D then it's much less than 50 samples
I exagerrated of course  :P

Offline piano-_-ger

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #35 on: January 29, 2004, 12:27:22 AM »
ILoveMusic, don't listen to these people that discourage you, especially that dreamaura. They are just jealous of your talent and progress. They spent god knows how many years and hours in front of the piano and suddenly a super talented guy like you pop out who can play the super duper difficult songs without really a lot effort. Do all your best, it is these people that need to get reality check themselves. I have one friend also like you, he learned piano by himself for one year, and guess what in one year he already can play grade 8 songs and all of us are very stunned by what he can do. And for dreamaura, go away, naive ger, you think you are very talented , isn't it ? You are the one who is smack of pride and arrogance for correcting other people the way you did.

Offline eddie92099

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #36 on: January 29, 2004, 01:36:52 AM »
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ILoveMusic, don't listen to these people that discourage you, especially that dreamaura. They are just jealous of your talent and progress.


4 pages of La Campanella since the summer? With all due respect, I am not jealous of that.  

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They spent god knows how many years and hours in front of the piano and suddenly a super talented guy like you pop out who can play the super duper difficult songs without really a lot effort.


4 months to learn 4 pages of La Campanella sounds like a lot of effort to me. Again, with all due respect, and not meaning to be arrogant, I recently learnt the Schumann Piano Concerto in under a week in order to rehearse with orchestra. I'm sure some forum members (namely MeiTing, Thracozaag...) can surpass that. Now who's super talented?

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Do all your best, it is these people that need to get reality check themselves.


I don't think I need to get a reality check really, having been accepted into all the major conservatoires in the UK recently. I think I have some slight idea what I am talking about.

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I have one friend also like you, he learned piano by himself for one year, and guess what in one year he already can play grade 8 songs and all of us are very stunned by what he can do.


Good for him. Please though, if you want to make your argument credible, remember that songs have words. La Campanella is far beyond grade 8, by the way.

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And for dreamaura, go away, naive ger, you think you are very talented , isn't it ? You are the one who is smack of pride and arrogance for correcting other people the way you did.


ILoveMusic asked for opinions and that's exactly what was given. I personally find dreamaurora's advice very good, and I know she speaks from experience. It is a shame, ILoveMusic, that you are spending your time so inefficiently when you practice. I am sure that one day you will regret your method,
Ed

Offline dj

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #37 on: January 29, 2004, 06:21:12 AM »
ditto on ed's post...except of course i did not learn the schumann piano concerto in under a week and haven't been accepted into all the major conservatories in the UK :)....but ya gotta listen 2 the people who know what they're talkin about.
rach on!

Offline chopiabin

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #38 on: January 29, 2004, 08:41:53 AM »
I learned the first three or four pages of La Campanella in a few days. I would probably kill myself if I had to spend a month per page. I don't think it's possible to grade La Campanella. They consider Scriabin's 1st etude a grade eight piece, but it is actually realtively easy althought it is amzing. Horowitz used to play it for encores all the time.

Offline ilovemusic

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #39 on: January 29, 2004, 01:31:30 PM »
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4 months to learn 4 pages of La Campanella sounds like a lot of effort to me. Again, with all due respect, and not meaning to be arrogant, I recently learnt the Schumann Piano Concerto in under a week in order to rehearse with orchestra. I'm sure some forum members (namely MeiTing, Thracozaag...) can surpass that. Now who's super talented?


I never made a statement I'm super talented, and never will do such a thing.  I also spend god nows how many hours behind the piano, sometimes just trying to get one phrase right.  

As for La Campanella: all in all I might be spending 2 hours a week on the piece, and I use it mainly as a study. So by the piece I try to learn repeated notes, octaves, jumps, etc. Don't you agree that in learning this piece a vast amount of technique is needed. And this takes time. I am sorry for Liszt if I am regarding his piece as a big Hanon exercise, but I suppose that's what I am doing.  Working through a finger exercise book not  take a week either for a starter, now would it ?




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ILoveMusic asked for opinions and that's exactly what was given. I personally find dreamaurora's advice very good, and I know she speaks from experience. It is a shame, ILoveMusic, that you are spending your time so inefficiently when you practice. I am sure that one day you will regret your method,


Maybe I will. But at the moment I see no wrong in working hard on technique and reading skills.  And remember I am not at all aiming for a carreer as a pianist. I have also had playing jazz piano in mind, but I think I would permanently ruin my technique if I just go at it. First I try to automatize efficient fingering ect. In a jazz gig NOBODY is going to hear the difference in "touch" anyway. When I have a real piano, I will work on this.


As for dreamaurora's advice: I highly doubt credibility and sincere concern when  people adress me in this way with such a tone .

I am useally not easily convinced when people show me the right way. But, ok, when I find an easy piece that appeals me, I will work on that too. But I actually have too LIKE it. How can I play with feeling if I am just annoyed at the sound of it !?  I might concenetrate more on Humoresque form Dvarok (don't know what grade this is) , but when I started it I had trouble phrasing a certain passage (the beginning of the part where the prince comes to resque the princess (but that's my interpretation)), so I put it down for a while, still practising just this phrase every until my fingers followed my commands.

Hey, this topic is super hot !!!

(Anyway: I just want to impress people who now nothing about piano-playing (<- this is a joke)).

Joost

Offline eddie92099

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Re: My practise approach: how ridiculous is it ?
«Reply #40 on: January 29, 2004, 03:24:52 PM »
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I never made a statement I'm super talented, and never will do such a thing.  I also spend god nows how many hours behind the piano, sometimes just trying to get one phrase right.  


My comment was directed at piano-_-ger. Sorry for the confusion :),
Ed



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