My 10-year old son ... need advice !

[emill]

My son will be turning eleven soon and on our laps as parents
is the responsibility of "proper" guidance.  He seems to be exceptionally
good with the piano, having just started early in 2005 at age 9; that year
being more of the fun side of piano playing more than anything else.

By the advice of his 1st teacher,  we enrolled him last february/06 in a music
extension program in a leading university here. So aside from his usual elementary
studies (he is in grade 5), he has weekly lessons lasting for an hour.  But because
of assignments, he has to practise about an hour or two, almost daily in preparation
for the next session.  Now, this is on top of other assignments from his regular class.
In short, his day is quite hectic for a 10-year old.

He was asked to give up basketball and other contact sports as he may injure
himself.  He grudgingly complied and is now limited to swimming and the usual
computer games.

Is it handled this way?  I mean, growing up should be a lot of fun and some mischief? 
He is growing up in a "serious" manner; too serious in my opinion, as if he is on
a career path to music. He seems not to mind or miss anything.  His teachers say
he is "gifted" and as such the skills should be developed properly.  Are we
as parents missing anything or allowing things that should not ??

Just to give you an idea:   

   
Thanks for any advice.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Define "gifted"? In any case, gifted or not, your son will not handle the situation properly and may succumb to depression. You mentioned that he is into video games. That is a sign to me that he isn't yet ready for serious practice only, as he is only 10-11. If he is recalcitrant about giving up sports and computer games, then piano practice will be a somewhat of a chore for him. Talk to the teacher, and converse with your child and see what he wants. You want to make the situation as friendly as you can for him, otherwise, he will succumb to some form of depression and anxiety because of stress.

Hope this helps.

[emill]

Thanks for the reply ... that is precisely my dilemna, how to find a balance.

Well, it is his teachers that say he is "gifted".  I would not really know.
Yes I think he plays very well for his age.  I posted 2 videos just to give an idea.

Thanks again.

[jpianoflorida]

he is gifted..i watched the videos...amazing, i think..HOWEVER...be careful..let him have a life...let him enjoy his childhood...even if he becomes the greatest pianist of all times, it won't be worth it if he is not happy...    rent the movie "shine"...it's about a pianist that was pushed too hard.     Do you remember the case of the brilliant kid that graduated college at like age 13 or so? then he committed suicide because he was miserable and never had any friends, etc...

[arensky]

Emill I am a professional piano teacher with 14 years of teaching experience. Enzo is very gifted.

His level of accomplishment is excellent for slightly less than two years of playing. To be critical the emotional level of his interpretations are immature and sometimes his technique seems to be stretched a bit, but he clearly loves to play, particularly the Chopin. If I was his teacher I would advise his parents to be careful with his hands too! Basketball and volleyball are the worst sports for potential hand injury, no reason why he can't play soccer and swimming is probably the best excersise there is.  Interesting, you say "he grudgingly complied" and yet "He does not seem to mind or miss anything". That tells me that music is more important to him than the other activities. I'm sure his teachers are putting him on a career path to music. From what I saw on youtube he has the potential to be a sucsess in this very difficult field, and they see that too. They are piano teachers, it's what we do. Make and guide pianists. Have you been to any of his lessons? What goes on in there? Is he enjoying it, or is he being "programmed"? Either way his teachers are doing an excellent job; he is a great talent but talent without proper guidance remans gold in the lode, unknown. You should be proud of him and support him. You think childhood should be "fun and mischief". Perhaps Enzo's fun is mastering difficult piano music.  As for the mischief aspect, soon he'll be a teenager, and you'll be glad to hear the sound of piano music for hours on end, knowing he's not drinking, smoking crack, siring little Enzo's out of wedlock, not returning library books, etc. 

One or two hours a day of practice is not an unreasonable requirement for a young person of Enzo's talent. If he seems stressed then you should manage the time for him. You are the parent, it's your descicion to make.But I watched him play in those videos, and it seems to make him insanely happy. He's playing difficult music very well. He's very gifted and you should nurture this gift he has. It's remarkable.

Now, you should

1. Observe some of his lessons
2. Voice your concerns to his teachers. BTW usually a child has one piano teacher. Please explain this arrangement, I'm curious...
3. Get a second opinion. I think that's why you're here. Oh, read the comments he got on Youtube. Now, look at other people play these pieces on Youtube, and compare them with Enzo, using your own ears and eyes. AND get a second opinion, from a live teacher, whose students have had sucsess.

 Keep us posted!   

[emill]

 Thank you for the replies, it makes us more confident with decisions to make.

I am in awe at the sensitivity of arensky's comments; you seem to understand him better than us.  You are most likely right that he loves the piano more than basketball, computer games or other activities.  In fact, we don't even have to remind him about his daily practice runs; he just goes through it as if it were part and parcel of his day, like taking a meal.  And he is quite intense with it.

Yes, I have observed several of his sessions with his teacher and often that one hour stretches into two or three hours.  They seem to speak in a language they only understand and they appear to be happy with each other.  I feel we are very lucky that she accepted to personally tutor our son. Aside from being an accomplished piano player herself, her credentials are impeccable, having masteral degrees from your country and the Russian Federation.

Enzo has a primary tutor or teacher; however whenever a master class is organized for a visiting Phd ... usually former child prodigies now based and teaching in your country, Enzo gets special lessons as being part of the master class.  Another one is coming this November/06 and on January/07 and luckily Enzo will be part of those classes.  So the term teachers.

I was really beginning to worry about how different he is from the kids in our block. 
All those stories about depression and rebelliousness really got into me.
I guess the bottom line really is ... does he enjoy it and does it mask him happy? 
Do his other grades or activities suffer?  On the contrary he is doing much better now
in Science and Math .  He does things on his own when the activity is music related.
He often asks me to look for this or that piece or to buy a cd of this or that pianist.
He visibly gets upset if I am late, as I bring him occasionally to music school.

Well it has been reassuring and I would like to thank all of you.  I am hoping still for additional advice even to the contrary.

Many thanks.
 

[pierret]

emill,
My son is 11yrs old and is playing at a very advanced level also.  He practices between 1.5-2.5 hrs/day and enjoys it very much.  His teacher is a University level teacher as well and gives him excellent instruction, "masterclasses" every week.  He also has a separate theory class every week and homework for that as well. 

The difference is that our teacher did not make my son choose piano over sports.  In fact he was quite happy to know that my son was an enthusiastic hockey goalie and lacrosse player(not in the same season mind you).  He told us from the beginning that he didn't want to make him choose, that he wanted him to have a full life and do what made him happy.  My sentiments exactly!

Just to be clear I'm not talking about the local boys going down to a frozen pond and fooling around for an afternoon kind of hockey.  He plays goal for a competitive (full contact) hockey team requiring him to be on the ice 2-3 times per week.  When he plays lacrosse it is full contact which he also loves.

Now, I will not pretend that things are not hectic at times.  It can become a burden driving to and fro and making sure practice is done and school work and play time and time with friends etc..  What we have done to help prioritize things is to tell all the teams he participates in that piano trumps any sport and they (believe it or not) respect that and in many instances have scheduled around his Monday afternoon lessons. 

There is also another boy my son's age who lives in our city who is extremely advanced and practices numerous hours per day and tours and lives and breathes music.  He wins all the competitions and festivals and seems to be quite happy.   One day when my son was a little discouraged at not playing at the same level as this boy the teacher said,"Well, if you want to you certainly could.  You have everything you need to play at the highest level but...  "  In the end my son decided he would not give up everything he has in his life for music.

Furthermore, my son and I and his teacher have discussed the inevitable decisions that will come to pass eventually.  He will have to decide how he wants to spend his time and I make no pretences of being unbiased.  I have made it clear I think his musical abilities should be his focus.  At the same time he knows his happiness is paramount to me.   

It has occured to me also that even if he should become a successful musician or teacher or musicologist that this might not lead to a happy, fulfilling life for him!  I know many people who have chosen the life of a performer and their lives are not any better than anyone elses.  In fact in some ways it can be quite horrible. 

The point I'm trying to make (in a long-winded fashion) is that it's all about what makes your son happy.   What would happen if he took up basketball again and perhaps sprained his finger as happened with my son once.  He couldn't practice for a couple of days.  The earth still turned and when he got back to practicing he jumped right in where he left off(ah to be young and flexible).  In the end it's about having as rich and interesting a life as one can have with the limited time we get. 

If your son is happy and truly only needs music to fulfill his childhood then by all means go for it.  But if you have doubts about the direction his life is taking and you think he may benefit from some variety then you should talk to the teachers about the bigger picture and what is best for him.

Best wishes,
Pierre.

[emill]

Pierre, 

Thank you for the reply and I can read clearly that you are an immensely
proud father as I am too.  Yes, on the final analysis it must be the happiness
and welfare of our children that must hold sway; the only problem is to be able
to be confident that the guidance we give as parents will be most appropriate.
I must admit that each situation is slightly different for each parent, that is why
opinions even if contrary to what one may like to do is most appreciated.

I am now more convinced that for almost two years now my son has
persistently favored activities related to music whenever it came in
conflict with others that he liked without any pressure or interference
from us.  He favored viewing Phantom of the Opera over  the X-Men
and there was this time he deliberately missed an overnight stay with
cousins in a resort with many games, swimming and lots of other kiddie
fun stuff because he will miss Maksim's concert.  At first I thought there
was something wrong with such choices; but as arensky above suggests -
it might just be my son's  idea of fun! 

Again thank you and my best wishes to your son.

[m1469]

Your son is demonstrating his spirit through his music.  It is something that needs to come out of its own, and something that in my opinion cannot be instilled within an individual and certainly cannot be forced by anyone nor by any number of hours doing anything.  All that can possibly be given him is proper guidence.

His spirit should not be lost in whatever his decisions are, because that will also kill his music.  And while we do make decisions everyday and in every moment, bigger ones are necessary for our overall life.  Continue taking note of the overall patterns.  Continue to be very observent in how he, as a child, let's his spirit be expressed.  These are his most unadulterated inclinations on this matter.  This way, when something changes (and it inevitably will), you have a wealth of knowledge and information to help guide him when he needs your help in knowing what to do next.

You are doing very well already.


m1469

[loops]

Greetings emill

my post is as an educator of gifted people and experience of being a bit gifted myself (maths in this case, not music). The replies you have above re happiness and free choices are IMO right.

The happy and succesful children/adults have an *inner* drive, a want to know and a want to be. These are
the ones you have to tell to take a break. (All my own poor father could ever do was to pick up
the pieces after I overdid it, even as an adult!)
You can tell when the drive is to please or worse, not anger, a parent or teacher; these are the ones
that have to be reminded to practice. They may be succesful but they are not happy. The fact you ask the questions you do show you are not the pushy type of father.

Talent=tenacity+fascination. The most important gift is the gift for practice, determination
and effort. I do not believe in a gene for maths (or whatever). There are strong similarities in the
skills and character rquired for concert pianist and surgeon (brilliant memory, skillful hands, high intelligence, courage to perform). The difference is the fascination for the different subject matter.
So, this talent helps your son achieve anything he wants even if music career doesn't turn out.
In the meantime, not only is he happy, he develops his gift (self discipline, intellectual
stamina etc) AND he learns some wonderful life enhancing music!

I'm often asked about fast-tracking. eg you ask if an hour lesson a week is too much.
In general, fast tracking in maths, reading is a bad idea. (It is MUCH better to do/learn
other things than read past your level of maturity). On the other hand,
tens of thousands of ten year old girls do an hour or more a week in ballet lessons
(often a fair bit more if you include jazz and tap), which is basically
professionally supervised practice with incremental progression, so bad habits don't
develop. It sounds like your son wants to be
audibly better each week, that is his inner drive. As long as the expectations are not
ridiculous (eg punishment for not being audibly better) then an hour a week ensures
he does not develop bad habits.

Have fun, be proud, enjoy. Your son will tell you when it's too much (just ask from time to time)

[emill]

Dear Myla ... Loops, 

I have to agree that expression, especially from the artistically inclined
must be given full leeway if one were to expect its growth and full developement.
Again the trick will be to find out how to do it  correctly for a particular child.
As many have suggested, there is no hard and fast rule; one must be observant
and sensitive.

Loops ....
 
I can not suppress a smile when you said 

"All my own poor father could ever do was to pick up the pieces after I overdid it, even as an adult!

.  I can just imagine, you must have gone over the hilt!   But your right,, that INNER DRIVE, often referred to as ambition can be a very usefull positive force or as you suggested, may spell frustration and disaster if allowed to grind on and on.  On a few occassions, I have asked my son why he practises 1-2 hours daily (not 1-2 hours weekly) and on Sundays by as much as 3-4 hours - his consistent reply is - I want to be famous.  Wow! sometimes it scares me as it can lead to frustration if failures occur. 

Well I guess everyone will have his share of sucesses and failures in this adventure
we call life; but as a parent I will be a hypocrite if I did not wish my son only successes
and no failures.

Many thanks..........

[piano_monkey]

Let him live and have a life i'm about enzo's age and my piano teacher gave me this website because i'm not as good as enzo but i'm very very good and i'll be posting some music so look out for it... BUT you should let him do some sports and let him practice still through out the day and don't push him 2 much otherwise it'll end up in disaster take it from a pianist his age  oh yea there's like millions of talent words that define him keep him doing what he's doing but don't push him  oops sry 2 type that twice

[emill]

hi there piano_monkey ..

I am sure if you try harder you can be as good as anyone.
As loop above says ... practise, practise and practise, but
these should be blended with other activities you also like.

Enzo makes the final decisions. We only give him advice if needed, but we
try to see to it that he clearly understands the reasons behind each choice.
He has for the moment decided to give piano playing more importance over
basketball.  He is into swimming now ... twice a week.

thanks again and most of all, be patient with the things you do.

[lagin]

At pianomonkey, don't worry about being as good as anyone else.  Just do your own best, because no matter how hard you try, you can't do any better or any worse than that.  Well, okay, not just at pianomonkey - it's a good reminder for everyone, including myself.

[donjuan]

I just watched your son's videos.  Congratulations, you should be very proud.  Children, like adults, go through stages; if he's into this stuff right now, be happy he's into something good.  Seriously, anybody can play basketball.  He, on the other hand, really has something special.

and about giving up basketball, I can relate: I gave up volleyball, because my music teacher was afraid of nerve damage.

[hyrst]

Hi Emill,
You son is truly a fantastic player for the time he has been learning, and with growing maturity he has so much potential. 

What he said about wanting to be famous sounds like a very normal 10 year old to me!  The tough part is that he has the time and ability for this to actually happen, whereas most young kids grow up and eventually realise that they are special in their own way, but big childhood dreams of being the world's 'most famous' kind of subside in the face of reality.  (Not in a depressing way, though, just other things in life become more important.)  I would take his quote as being an indication of him being emotionally a normal child - this is a good thing. 

The really difficult part is that, since he has the ability, it becomes your job as the parent to protect him and to open up the oppotunities at the same time.  I think you are doing the right thing.  He obviously loves what he is doing.  He is making the choices, and he is old enough to make choices about his own acitivities.  You are not pushing him or placing expectations on him to achieve, this is where most of the big problems with depression come from.  From the sounds, you are allowing him to be a child, but every child has something they really love doing - his is a very constructive passion. 

Love him and accept him and teach him about the subjectivity of people's judgements, when and if the time comes that he is involved in competitions and things.  Another big danger is other people's expectations building him up - "you are so good you've got to win!", that sort of thing - because when the goal cannot be assured and it is not met, that is when the sense of failure takes hold. 

Give him every opportunity in the world that he wants and you can afford to provide for him.  It sounds like that is what you are doing.  Be aware that his interests in the next few years, as he heads into adolescence, might change or his focus alter and be willing to accept any loss of progress as a result.  I think you are doing a fantastic job, by the sounds, and he seems very happy - from what you have said and in the videos.

The topic of home schooling was mentioned earlier.  As a trained psychologist and school teacher, I would not adivse that at his age.  There are obviously lots of very different opinions on this subject, but I think in most cases it is not good for younger children to be taken out of school, especially if their interest is likely to have them secluded from other children anyway.  While there are a lot of pressures and risks by being included with peers, it helps normalise his development.  He gets to detach from being the pianist and becomes a normal kid with the same behavioural expectations and play activities as other children.  He has to deal with social problems as well as have the thrill of being praised by his peers.  He has to meet deadlines in other fields and face normal life consequences.

However, if he wanted to home school or was having a really hard time at school socially, I would consider home schooling when he is about 14.

I think it is a good thing, for many reasons, that he is into swimming.  I'd encourage you to keep that going for as long as possible.  I would also try to organise having his friends over regulalry, even for just an hour a week, even if that time is spent with Enzo and his friend/s playing around the piano.  Perhaps having a friend over and going to the park to play soccer so you are away from the piano and he still gets to play sport, but in a safer way.

Anyway, I would be so proud of him and his committment.  And I would try not to worry too much, love him and let him be himself - just as it sounds like you are.  And share his passions with him, like going to concerts together and sitting listening to music when he goes to bed.

[ksnmohan]

Hallo emill,

This mail is from a really far off place - India.

As a musicologist and teacher (currently I have a 13-year old Indian girl learning the piano), I would rather go by what our Vedas preach, simply "Let the River Flow". If Enzo enjoys Computer games, let him play them. No harm! Or swimming, which he is allowed to do - yes, by all means. Even games like tennis or board games - chess for example - if he really enjoys them. Some extra activities to keep reviving the body, mind, heart and most important, the Soul.

From the two Videos you had kindly put up for us, I must say that Enzo is really gifted. So let him practice 1 to 2 hours a day the piano - this is a MUST. Constant practice and Concentration are the key words.

Then it all boils down to Time Management. If he is going to be really involved so much with the Piano, he may not have the time for his studies. He may not score "A"s as much you as parents want - I'm sure that he also wants to score those "A"s as much as you.

Only a word of caution -  I pray that Enzo is Blessed that he can have a decent income and a good life style as a musician - if he chooses that path. Why I say this is that I have met talented pianists, who have studied in Conservatories but are struggling to make both ends meet. I met one outside the York Cathedral and went  upto him and asked why with so much talent  he has taken to performing in the streets, with his open hat  in front of the piano. His answer was simple -  the competetion up there is severe.  In yet another case, I talked to, in Paris a Japanese lady pianist  who had studied at the Paris Conservatory. Brilliant, but no chance as a concert pianist and she has resorted to teach piano lessons. With any other musical instrument one has a chance to be atleasi part of a decent Orchestra.

Not every brilliant pianist  becomes famous and  rich as the Horowitzs of yesteryears or the Lang Langs of today.  For that one must be very lucky, or as I earlier said, be Blessed.

So for my part, a small contribution, I bless your son. Let all others who meet him also bless him. One thing we as human beings forget to do - unintentionally - is that we are busy in providing all the material comforts to our near and dear ones (and feel content that we have done the best) that we forget to take time to pray for them, their well-being , health and prosperity. We really want to see that talented cjildren do not end up as Van Cliburns or Glenn Goulds - this I say with full respect and acknowledgement of their geniuses. We don't want them to undergo the sufferings of Mozart and Schubert - inspite of all their prodigious talents.

So, do your best - which you are already doing - but do not worry about the results. They are not in our hands. That is what the Bhagavat Gita preaches. Keep praying for Enzo's future and keep on blessing him.

From this distance, I am ready to help Enzo in widening his music base. I also compose New Age Music, presently for piano and orchestra (for my current pupil). Two years ago I did the same for a 16-year old Violin student, which got us an invitation to a "Jazz meets Classic" Festival in Germany - followed by 14 Concerts in that country. You can  get more details under "mohan narayanan, music" in Google search.

So all the best for Enzo and you -  let us be in touch

Sincerely,

Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan
Chennai (Madras), South India



 

[ksnmohan]

Hallo emill,

Sorry, just to request type in as

music mohan narayanan

for the Google Search on me.

Regards
Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan

[jpianoflorida]

ksnmohan made a good point....     unless you teach or perform,how do you make a living with music..and if you perform only, that can be sporatic! so sometimes i guess we have to question our goals...just putting this out there for discussion!   I mean we don't go into a music career for the money, but you have to make a living!

[emill]

  hi hyrst !!

Many thanks for the clarification especially regarding the "I want to be famous".
I am relieved that this is often how a child feels especially if he has been "on top of the world" lately.  He is visibly more happy tackling Mozart's - Sonata in C K330 (3 mvts) , Alla Turca and Bach Inventions3- 6,12 & 15 which he plans to play more or less fairly by the end of the year.  I am really glad that I sought advice here, where members take time off to clarify clearly, in a constructive manner their views.  As you said, as parents it is for us to protect, guide and open opportunities for our children.  Not an easy thing as it requires knowledge and sufficient sensitivity on our part. But again, reading and hearing it from others helps one focus more objectively and builds up confidence that ones response to the situation is appropriate.  Once again,  THANKS.



 :)dear Prof Narayanan,

Thank you for the honest insights, especially that about earning a living. And you are so right; the only financially well-off musicians in our country are singers of contemporary and popular music.  I think that is also the case in India.  As hyrst above said, many of those with special talents, relegate these gifts to the background as they take on and explore other intersets in the course of growing up.  So as Enzo grows up, he may most likely take up other intersts and place the piano in the background.

However,  if he chooses music as his career path, then we will support him to the max, including regular prayers for his physical and spiritual health, as you suggested! We can only cross our fingers and hope to,  that he will eventually become an acccomplished pianist and be blessed (with a reasonable source of income).  Although that is still a long way .. it is a good reality check.   

 Again many thanks  ... yes let us keep in touch.

[ksnmohan]

Hallo emill,

Thanks for both your mails - on Enzo and on Titles. Let's forget the latter!

As far as Enzo is concerned,  both you and your wife are on the right track. After seeing Enzo's virtuosity playing Chopin, I think  Mozart's Alla Turca (KV 331 in A major) will be just child's play (sic) for him. The Bach selections you have mentioned are also fine - not so difficult for him.

Would strongly recommend - in consultation with his teacher - to take up Beethoven's more complex Sonatas - "ASSPASSIONATA", "WALDSTEIN" and "STURM".

For a talent like Enzo, I would still prefer more of Chopin for him.

Sooner or later, he should be introduced to Rachmaninov - Sonata 2 in B Flat minor and Igor Stravinsky.

Enzo needs the entire spectrum - Bach for the melody, Mozart for the sensitivity, Beethoven for the power, Chopin and Rach for the fingering, virtuosity. Rach was perhaps the only person who combined all the three roles - Pianist,  Composer and Conductor - so well.

From the video, I presumed correctly that you are Asian - I thought Chinese. Now that you say Phillipines, perhaps I'm not far away from my guess. But from the Timings of your mail, you seem to live in Europe - in the UK perhaps.

I have given you my e-mail. If I want to send specific Sheet Music as  Attachments, MIDI Files etc. for Enzo's learning, I prefer to use that,  than loading the Forum's  bandwidth.

What piano is Enzo playing? Does he use a Metronome for keeping  takt during practices? He must watch DVDs of great masters - Horowitz, Gilels, Richter, Ashkenazy, Uchida - just to learn the finer aspects of the Art from them, especially their total involvement. He should just watch their faces while playing!

So much for this time. Please e-mail me any requirements which I can manage from here.

Love to Enzo, your wife and yourself.

Regards

Prof Narayanan