phrasing and articulation

[PaulNaud]

In the first measure of Beethoven's G-major Rondo it seems to me senseless to make a break after the trill because the slur ends there.
Some thoughts please!

[faulty_damper]

That's how it was notated, not performed.  The composer was writing using common practice techniques.  This meant that it was the custom to end slurs within the same measure.  In performance, you would connect the resolution the following measure.

I would suggest referencing notational techniques of that era to understand why it was notated the way it was.

[PaulNaud]

If you read "Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music" by Sandra Rosenblum and if you listen to a large number of piano teachers, you will hear or read the following: Should legato ends every time a slur ends at a bar line? The answer is yes much of the time, because of the finesse imparted to the line by approriate accentuation and articulation. The final note of a phrase sounds just little more distinct and deliberate coming after the slur; the projection of a theme is more interesting than it would be under a continuing slur with the final note simply tapered off in an unbroken legato.

[ramseytheii]

If you read "Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music" by Sandra Rosenblum and if you listen to a large number of piano teachers, you will hear or read the following: Should legato ends every time a slur ends at a bar line? The answer is yes much of the time, because of the finesse imparted to the line by approriate accentuation and articulation. The final note of a phrase sounds just little more distinct and deliberate coming after the slur; the projection of a theme is more interesting than it would be under a continuing slur with the final note simply tapered off in an unbroken legato.

Thanks for that information, and having read that, I realize that from many performers I respect playing Classical music, they do in fact emphasize a bit - artistically, of course - the end of phrases.  I have also heard that these slurs are sort of references to string bowing - any ideas on that?

Walter Ramsey

[PaulNaud]

I have also heard that these slurs are sort of references to string bowing - any ideas on that?

In his "Tablatura Nova " of 1624 Samuel Scheidt introduced slurs over goups of two or four sixteenth notes, sometimes accompanied by the words "Imitato Violistica". He also provided an explanation: 
        "Wherever the notes are drawn together, it is a special way of playing, just as violists are accustomed to do in sliding with the bow. As such a style is not unknown among the more celebrated violists of the German nation, and also results in a very lovely and agreeable effect on the gentle-sounding organs, regals, and harpsichords, I have become fond of this manner of playing and have adopted it."

[pianistimo]

this is changing the subject slightly - but what is a 'regal?'  nevermind if you don't have time.  i'll google it.

oh.  a small, easily portable pipe organ.  good luck with that!  i've never seen one that was portable.  what do you do?  break the pipes into a blind man's foldable cane?  then, set them up at site?  and, how - might i ask - is it actually portable.  tuba sized case? 

[zheer]

this is changing the subject slightly - but what is a 'regal?'  nevermind if you don't have time.  i'll google it.

  To entertain someone with a story.

[pianistimo]

you mean the regal cinema?  yes.  i want to see 'take the lead.'  my dark and handsome antonio banderas is in it.  doing latin dancing of course.

ok, nils.  go ahead and put this in anything but piano.  www.antoniobanderasfans.com (click on pic and scroll down to the white shirt pic).  between this upcoming movie and waiting for ricardo muti's concert nov. 4th - they are neck and neck.  whichever comes out first.  must see ricardo muti.  he's conducting schubert's 'overture to rosamunde,' schubert's 'symphony #4 (tragic),' hindemith's 'noblissima visione,' and strauss 'death and transfiguration.'

[PaulNaud]

This custom would seem to relate to the overriding importance of metrical structure in an earlier time and to the subsequent customs of bowing stringed instruments. Such slurring is easiest to interpret when it occurs over a straightforward accompaniment pattern, as in Mozart's Rondo K.485, m.156 to the end.
 May the performer continue the legato throughout? Should he provide a breath at the end of m.160?Similar series of slurs are not infrequent in the works of Mozart, and still occured in those of Beethoven, Schubert, and other composers of the early Romantic period.

[pianistimo]

is this a test?  i think faculty_damper AND your first question/answer are correct.  why would beethoven make his music choppy and measured off in distinct metrical measures?  one only needs listen to his symphonies to see how ridiculous that would be.  he was always breaking boundaries in form...so why not in metrical measurement.  maybe mozart.  not beethoven.

[PaulNaud]

is this a test?

No, I'm waiting for an answer.

[pianistimo]

something that's really helped me is to ask some professors what recordings of sonatas and symphonies they recommend.  when you listen to some experts (who have studied beethoven - or whatever composer) for a lifetime - you hear these nuances of things that are not in other recordings.  for beethoven, to me (this is the way i hear it), it is the ability to fade in /out without knowing what actually just happened.  it's as if we are suddenly mesmerized by something and start daydreaming.  yes. there is a classical pattern to beethoven's sonatas - but they are ultimately romantic.  he never seemed directly tied to the aristocracy or felt that he owed them anything.  therefore - he routinely broke the rules.  op. 2 #1 is about the only one that seems overtly metrical.  by op. 10#3 - he's becoming able to 'disconnect' from the past - even though rests are written in.  you have a need to romanticize it a bit or it will sound really BAD.

[PaulNaud]

yes. there is a classical pattern to beethoven's sonatas - but they are ultimately romantic.

I agree with you a 100%. I think that the politically correct today's performances are wrong!!!

[pianistimo]

i also agree 100% with you.  i am a classic-romanticist and not a romantic-classicist.  to add a little pedal here and there - but not to completely cover up the obvious breaks that he puts in with rests.

york bowen has some interesting things to say on page 21 of 'pedalling the modern pianoforte.'  in the op.110 (the closing few bars of the slow movement just before the fugue) 'observe the care with which beethoven wrote the particular durations of these notes - dotted quavers at first, then a quaver and then a semiquaver with rests following.  realise how such niceties would be spoilt by the absurd held pedals indicated (as with some editions).

i went to hear beethoven's ninth at the mann center this summer.  i settled down, anxious to hear a classical rendition and heard a completely romantic one.  they changed the tempos of everything (fairly dramtically) and it was too slow in many places - accents put obviously here and there (too obvious) - and it was basically, to me, a denigration of a classical work. 

and, yet, there are some pieces - as with the latter sonatas - that there is some leeway to use pedalling for some amazing results with a sort of aura over the piece.  i think it's a matter of taste.  is it in good taste or just yukky.

wasn't bruno walter one of the better beethoven conductors?

[pianistimo]

i don't think that beethoven was thinking about the poem 'love and death' (even though written long before him) by alfred lord tennyson - but rather about nature and love and passion through a sort of protected lense.  one much like schubert.  he walked the line.  he was more careful in what feelings he allowed to freely roam and what he reigned in.  he didn't seem to want others to think he was recklessly roaming the emotions.  maybe he wanted people to have a chance to decide exactly what it was they were feeling.  the thinking part - the prometheus - or plato in beethoven kept him somewhat separated from the romantics who really didn't want to take time to think and focused soley on feelings.

but, in terms of dimensions of the symphony - that started with 'the eroica.'  i have some interesting notes from class and they explain a lot.  also op 101 and 111 'burst form assunder' according to 'music in the romantic era' by alfred einstein.  and, yet it still has 'immanent musical logic.' 

the beethoven of the pastoral symphony is more what mendelssohn was following - and he made the switch from beethoven's composing to being a romantic classicist.  his midsummer night's dream exhibits a passionate quality that 'has a romantic effect through a kind of purposelessness.'

[pianistimo]

one last thought of mine is that i always tie beethoven in with shakespeare.  they seem more interested in what is reality -because truth is often stranger than fiction.  whereas, the romantics took the fiction over truth in inspiration because it had more impact.

with schumann 'we are here concerned (regarding his first piano concerto) with the cooperation of two forces - piano and orchestra- which no longer displays the pure equilibrium that it did with mozart, nor the dramatic give-and-take that it did with beethoven.  the soloist now is carried, supported, and caressed by the orchestra.' 

the intimacy of the 'intermezzo's' of schumann 'the heroic beethoven would never have permitted himself.

another thing i've thought about - is the fact that beethoven was still interested in the string quartet at the end of his life - and also, of course (my interest), the fugue.  what true romantic is going to bother with a fugue?

[PaulNaud]

in the op.110 (the closing few bars of the slow movement just before the fugue) 'observe the care with which beethoven wrote the particular durations of these notes - dotted quavers at first, then a quaver and then a semiquaver with rests following.  realise how such niceties would be spoilt by the absurd held pedals indicated (as with some editions).

This pedal you're talking about is from Beethoven's own hand. It might be difficult to understand what he really meant!!!!!!!

[pianistimo]

did beethoven write in that pedalling, really?  is it on the autographed manuscript?  hmmm.  will have to check into that one.

[ramseytheii]

This pedal you're talking about is from Beethoven's own hand. It might be difficult to understand what he really meant!!!!!!!

I also understand that these pedals are from Beethoven.  I seem to recall a note in the Dover/Schenker edition that says all pedalings included are by Beethoven himself?  Anyways, this is what happens when one becomes too literal about things, and stops interpreting.  If composers write the way they want it to sound, we can only assume that the literalness of the note values is outweighed by the pedal marking which indicates a certain sound.  Composers who are familiar with the way people play their works can also compose certain safe-guards into their music to achieve a certain sound, and you will never achieve the right thing by thinking literally - Sorry! 

For instance, in this case, perhaps Beethoven meant that the pedalled note with a rest following was intended to be lighter in nuance then the longer note that followed.  Imagine for a moment that he had written these last two notes, the semiquaver, and dotted crotchet, as a dotted quaver and dotted crotchet, with a tenuto over the crotchet, and perhaps a portato over the dotted quaver.  This would essentially be the effect that is created if you follow the pedal marks.  But maybe he found another way to write this.  Why should our logic always match up with his?

Let this be a warning to all those who insist on literal readings of things, that one cannot automatically assume one writing the music has the same logic-based mind as the one reading the music, and one therefore has to think creatively.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

the schlesinger edition at beethovenhaus has only an indication 'ped' over the next to last semiquaver.  there is no indication of how long to hold it.  this is where editions sort of mess up, imo.  also, the previous notes beethoven assumed that students would pedal.  so the mix up - is the absolute necessity of 'legato pedalling for the first four octaves where only an imperfect attempt at legato can be made by the fingers alone...' and the ending - which could be perfected by a bit of explaination of the need to somewhat observe rests without being 'choppy.'  i also like to pedal in some areas of 'connection' as i realize this adagio sort of blends in with the fugue that comes after it.  but, with a slow speed, much more distinction with the rests IS possible.  at least a little break!

what york bowen was saying is that we shouldn't follow editors pedalling advice without questioning if it is effiecient. 

[PaulNaud]

Let this be a warning to all those who insist on literal readings of things, that one cannot automatically assume one writing the music has the same logic-based mind as the one reading the music, and one therefore has to think creatively.

Some great pianists have published works by well-known composers and put some of their personal touch in the score. They give us sometimes a convincing interpretation of the score even though it's not written by the composer. What should we do with such scores?

[ramseytheii]

Some great pianists have published works by well-known composers and put some of their personal touch in the score. They give us sometimes a convincing interpretation of the score even though it's not written by the composer. What should we do with such scores?

I think these kind of scores are really interesting, really fascinating!  I love especially looking at older editions of Bach works, for instance I have a book edited by von Buelow, and others.  You can really learn some musical things from them, even if today their editions can seem strange. 

Also a von Buelow edition, and others like it, with all these dynamic and phrasing additions, also has usually a long written introduction by the editor, which orients you to their aesthetic, and gives interesting information.  This will always be more itneresting for me than a bland edition with nothing in it, that only has at the beginning a list of sources and libraries, and an endless array of abbreviations that have no meaning for a person who is not a lifelong scholar of manuscripts and facsimiles and first editions. 

These editions are important too, but why on earth are they the norm?  Editions should have unique aesthetic statements, because that helps people to get more involved in the music, other than a damn treatise on where the manuscript was located and what articulation was hard to read and how it was hard to pinpoint the exact starting point of this hairpin.  Makes me want to throw up! 

To answer your question, those editions exist and can provide useful things, like the Schnabel, even though a lot of things in there just seem wrong.  Look for instance at his musings on the tempo in Beethoven op.109, the last variation of the last movement.  If you play it the way he suggests, it is just totally wrong.  But there are so many beautiful things in there.  Also a lot of these editions were made by performers for performers, so they often give clues about how to manage things that otherwise may not seem obvious,

I am curious about the Dover edition of Medtner sonatas, which seems to include editorial contributions from Geoffrey Tozer and Marc-Andre Hamelin.  It is not made clear which comments come from Medtner and which from these editors, and often there are things footnoted from the score, where sometimes the footnote was obviously written by Medtner, and sometimes not.  There are certain performance indications in parenthesis which they do not clarify, are they editorial or from Medtner.  The first page in the book is a facsimile of the first page of the Sonata-Reminiscinza, however, if you compare it with the edited version, there are many, many things missing.  So really compare editions!

Walter Ramsey

[PaulNaud]

Also a von Buelow edition, and others like it, with all these dynamic and phrasing additions, also has usually a long written introduction by the editor, which orients you to their aesthetic, and gives interesting information.  This will always be more itneresting for me than a bland edition with nothing in it, that only has at the beginning a list of sources and libraries, and an endless array of abbreviations that have no meaning for a person who is not a lifelong scholar of manuscripts and facsimiles and first editions.

You've put your finger on the PROBLEM!!!
Pianists keep up with the FASHIONS!!!
Nobody wants to touch the SACRO-SANCT URTEXT EDITIONS!!!
Everybody wants to remain faithful to the URTEXT. I'd like to know wich one by the way, because sometimes we have 2 or 3 different versions?

[PaulNaud]

That's how it was notated, not performed.  The composer was writing using common practice techniques.  This meant that it was the custom to end slurs within the same measure.  In performance, you would connect the resolution the following measure.

A casual look at a random sample of slurs in music of the Classic period often makes today's pianists wonder why some slurs end where they do. Since we are accustomed to the long line to the long line and legato of late 19th century interpretation and to editions in which many slurs have been extended or joined to cover complete phrases, it is natural that we ask why authentic slurs so often end at a bar line, at the end of a beat, or before the final note of a phrase.  

[pianistimo]

maybe it has to do with tastefulness and if the 'essence' of the music is there.  i've taken much shorter rests than written in the score (but still observe a slight rest when written).  it's a sort of 'breath mark' for pianists to give the illusion of a voice or instrument that is completely wind driven.  or, an imitation of violin bowing.

but, to confirm your point - my most recent teacher suggested holding the first note in alberti bass accompaniment - to smooth the sound and make it more 'pleasant' to the ear.  when i first took piano lessons - that would have been 'against the rules' to change anything.  but, if it increases the pleasure of the sounds - and connects them (thus minimizing too frequent of pedal - or too deeply pedalling - making mushy sounds) - then it has a purpose in clearing away 'dead noise.'

[PaulNaud]

maybe it has to do with tastefulness and if the 'essence' of the music is there.  i've taken much shorter rests than written in the score (but still observe a slight rest when written).  it's a sort of 'breath mark' for pianists to give the illusion of a voice or instrument that is completely wind driven.  or, an imitation of violin bowing.

In string playing, slurs generally stopped at the bar line to allow a fresh down-bow on the downbeat.
Since the development of expressive bowing and tonguing took place considerably ahead of any similar development in keyboard playing, it was natural for keyboard composers to adopt a sign already in use. But should it be applied to piano playing?

[PaulNaud]

The desire for metric accentuation that supported th Rule of the Down-bow and governed the length of the slur in string music also directed the early use of slur in the keyboard music to a considerable degree. Thus during the Baroque and ealy Classic periods the keyboard slur was typically short and only gradually came into use over bar lines.