She just doesn't practice!!

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I genuinly think that "Lau" has got a valid point here. There are many reasons for derelict practicing habits, and as "Lau" made clear, without albeit not drawing from personal experience, pressure to succeed is sometimes an ingredient in languid practice. Perhaps you are pushing the student a bit hard, and she isn't comprehending the material and may be stressed, which is a culprit for not practicing.

Keep up the good work "Lau".

[arensky]

i have teached, though i did it for free.  i taught my sister's boyfriend the melody to turkish march while i play the left hand in volodos version      anyway, i didn't get frustrated, and it's not like he was progressing at a prodegy pace.

That's not real teaching, it's more like a parlor game. Anyway I hope you "teached" him good 

I remember what it was like when i was learning and i hated it when i noticed the teacher getting impatient. I say if you get angry with your students when they don't practice or whatever then you shouldn't be a teacher.

Not all teachers are patient, and perhaps those people shouldn't be teachers.

 I am very patient with most students, but...

If the student is not practicing, why is it at the lesson? I have had this dilemma with three students in the past year; one was a mess whose life was out of control, the second could not manage a daily schedule living away from home for the first time and could not find time to practice. These students were accomplishing nothing, so they are out. The third is younger, I was never sure if it wanted to really take lessons or not, so I read him (and his mom) the riot act, very nicely but clearly, saying "if you want to do this, you have to get to work or find another teacher". Clearly he wanted to study, because he has become productive which is a good thing because he's talented.

My piano studio is not American public school where anyone can slop their way through and still pass. I expect my students to improve over time, and if they do not they are let go, but usually they quit before the conference is nessacary. It's very simple, you work or leave. I am aware that not everyone wants to be a concert pianist or enter competitions, and I don't force this on my students. Of course if someone is capable of winnning prizes and the process doesn't give them ulcers I encourage them to try. But everyone must improve, or there is no point in studying.

With me. 

The student may just not be practicing because of the pressure of the teacher, and may want to just quit the piano. that's what i wanted to do.

Then they should. Did you do what you wanted or are you still studying with that teacher? Do tell, we're curious...

[pianowolfi]

i have teached, though i did it for free.  i taught my sister's boyfriend the melody to turkish march while i play the left hand in volodos version      anyway, i didn't get frustrated, and it's not like he was progressing at a prodegy pace.

 I remember what it was like when i was learning and i hated it when i noticed the teacher getting impatient. I say if you get angry with your students when they don't practice or whatever then you shouldn't be a teacher. The student may just not be practicing because of the pressure of the teacher, and may want to just quit the piano. that's what i wanted to do.

Ok, but you surely have practised in general. Otherwise you won't be able to play things like the Volodos alla turca. 

[lau]

If the student is not practicing, why is it at the lesson? I have had this dilemma with three

I say you can still learn a lot at a lesson if you didn't practice.

Ok, but you surely have practised in general. Otherwise you won't be able to play things like the Volodos alla turca.

I am one of those students who never practices, every lesson i just tell my teacher that i didn't practice this, that, and this. I'm not sure how i am progressing then, the only time i ever really practice is when i really want to learn something like the volodos.

[tiasjoy]

I don't understand why teachers get frustrated when their students don't practice. Your still getting paid...it's their life and they can do what they want with their lesson

It was only last year I was trying to convince myself this was true!!  "So what if kids don't want to practise ... ahhh, let em do what they want ... their parents don't seem to care,so just take their money off them and  go over the same thing week after week."  I listened to that stuck in a rut voice, and away I went ... open the door, hi, sit at the piano, okay, hmmmm, yeah I know - you're making it pretty clear, piano is not a prioritory in your life ... yeah, it's true, what I do for a living is not important  ... no problem if you didn't practise - hey, I have an idea,why don't you just do what you should have done at home, and I'll sit and watch you and go, yeah, "do it again..."

The result?  I HATED  my job, I was going to quit, I even began dreading the students - and the money??? Pfff! The money is pitiful - hardly a consolation for the depressed feeling that was setting in.  AND I knew my studio had plummeted.  Only two years before that,a comment was made that my studio was the highest standard in the area.  WHY?  Because I worked my butt off to make sure the kids progressed really well.  Eventually I felt like I was doing ALL the work,and  so the apathy set in. 

I've been in both places.  It was only a comment from a parent about lack of practising that made me wake up,  take a good look at what I was doing, and whip my butt into gear again.  That meant, EXPECTING students to practise!!! And it's been REALLY GOOD again.  The very SAME kids have responded, we have enthusiasm and excitement, and PURPOSE and I have that feeling of satisfaction and pride,  that money just can't replace.   MOST music teachers would say it's the love of music that drives them, not the love of money.

lau, all respect for your viewpoint - I've tried it the way you say it should be, and it only lead to MORE frustration and disappointment.  (AndI know what it's like to not want to practise - i've had 4 different piano teachers when I was growing up because I quit so often - because I didn't want to practise.  And I don't regret it.  I didn't want to practise then.  Big deal.  It didn't make me a bad person.  It didn't even make me a bad musician - I still did heaps of musical things at school, but piano lessons weren't for me - and neither was the practise - then.) 

When you deal day in day out with people of course their time with you will affect you.  It's not just the space, the piano, and the teacher's expertise and  skill you're buying - it's their energy, emotions and passion that are involved too ...

I did the ole, 'let em do what they like, it's their money' bit.  It sucked.  For the students too.

Now I'm back on track - working much harder, and once again "loving" what I do.  You betcha I expect the students to 'practise'.

[lau]

i still agree with myself..what you said was great and it can happen. But it also can go another way where the student becomes sick of you telling them to practice and they get sick of piano and quit. that was almost me.

[tiasjoy]

it also can go another way where the student becomes sick of you telling them to practice and they get sick of piano and quit.

That's really a win win situation: the teacher doesn't have to nag, and the student doesn't have to be nagged.

that was almost me.

Like I said, I was even "worse" than you - I DID quit, often.  Probably relieved my teachers. That didn't mean I hated the piano - I played it all the time, and look at me now, been teaching it for over ten years.
 

Your teacher can only respond with what you bring to the lesson. If it's the attitude, 'sorry didn't practise - and you shouldn't care less anyway, you're still getting paid' what you're saying to the teacher - whether you mean to or not - is that piano is not a priority - the consequence of this is that within their studio, you probably won't be a priority either. 


If your teacher isn't getting frustrated with you not practising, then I say you're onto a good thing, stick with it.  If your teacher does start to nag about practising, they're probably getting frustrated.  All I'm saying is it would probably benefit you to have a little empathy.  People are entitled to feel frustrated when they feel their job isn't going well.  One way you can help is by telling the teacher WHY you feel this way (don't want to practise).  I agree with you - no one likes to be nagged, stressed, bullied etc.  and when this happens it's a sign of communication failure.

When there are practise issues in my studio, I want to know why.  There is always a why, and once that's figured out, a plan can be set in motion - and it doesn't have to involve nagging!

[lau]

uh, what the heck...


it isn't a win win situation because the teacher IS nagging, and the student is responding negativley.

[tiasjoy]

uh, what the heck...


it isn't a win win situation because the teacher IS nagging, and the student is responding negativley.

I meant the situation would be 'win win' if you stopped going to that teacher. 

[pianowolfi]

I say you can still learn a lot at a lesson if you didn't practice.



I am one of those students who never practices, every lesson i just tell my teacher that i didn't practice this, that, and this. I'm not sure how i am progressing then, the only time i ever really practice is when i really want to learn something like the volodos.

Yeah, that is ok. You choose what you want to learn. It depends on your goals. If you want to become a professional you need to learn certain things. If you want to be an amateur you choose what you want to play, at least after having learned the basics. Does your teacher choose the pieces for you?

[lau]

i pick out some things i want to learn and he gives me some peices

[pianowolfi]

Yeah so it's no problem. You're an interested, motivated student. Already the fact that you are on ps shows your interest. And I as a teacher like students who have their own goals and ways to learn. I have only a problem with students who are not interested at all and don't practise at all.

[shortyshort]

Although I know i'm not a piano teacher, I have been teaching my two daughters from my limited knolledge. (The eldest (11) is now at a private school and having proper lessons). they both picked it up very quickly, but getting them to practice has been a nightmare. I always tell them that they can practice at any time, even if they have to kick me off. What i do is when hearing them play and they haven't improved at all, and they ask how its sounds, i say "like last time i heard it". they get a little upset, then practice like mad for half an hour or so. I don't make them practice, but make them aware that i'm dissappointed if no progress has been made since their last "lesson". I try to leave them to come to me and ask for a lesson, when they think they need it. i don't think there is one particular solution, as all children are different.

Cheers,

Shorty

[chocolatedog]

I think tibi has eloquently stated the disconnect. 

The goals of the parent and the goals of the teacher are often NOT the same, and neither realizes it.  This causes much of the frustration for both parent and teacher, and ultimately for the child. 

The parent as paying customer has the right to set the goals.  Of course few of them have thought it out with enough clarity.  The teacher as employee can decide that service is not one they will provide and send the parent to another teacher. 

Perhaps it is worth asking parents exactly what their goal is.  I told my daughter's piano teacher what I expected, and she thought it was reasonable.  Had she told me she only taught conservatory candidates, I would have been grateful for her candor and moved on to the next teacher. 

Yes, I understand the parent is the paying customer but in a lot of cases the parents have pretty unrealistic ideas about offspring's ability (or often, lack of.........)

[pizno]

I have an update on the non-practicing girl.  Now she has formally announced that she is 'not very good at practicing'.  So, it's on the table, anyway.  I asked if she was sure she wanted to study piano, and she said 'Oh Yes!' and I said I understood how the life of a 13 year old was busy, and we would just do the best we could.  So, I gave up on the piece we had been working on (she would have been able to handle it if she were practicing), gave her another, easier one.  I dutifully wrote down assignments and gave her a new exercise book, thinking - this is so stupid.  She won't take it out of the bag before next week.  She lost one of the books I gave her already.  But, I guess, she will come, we will do the same dumb things, I'll act as if I care, and I will babysit notes for her.

Pizno

[preludium]

I dutifully wrote down assignments and gave her a new exercise book, thinking - this is so stupid.

As someone else already wrote - you still get paid for the lessons. It is amazing that many people cannot handle doing something useless, even if the primary goal (to make a living) still is achieved. I'm of the same kind. It just aggravates the hell out of me if I have to do the same thing again in my job. It's just that feeling of uselessness that hits you hard. There was a person who could write about such things like nobody else: Fyodor Dostoevsky, probably the most brilliant psychologist that has ever lived on this planet. In his novel "The House of the Dead", where he reflects on his experience in a Siberian labour camp, he tells about prisoners that have to shift rocks from one heap to another, and the next day back again, and then it starts anew, saying that if you want to completely demoralize a person you just have to give them loads of useless work. In the chapter "The grand inquisitor" of his novel "The Brothers Karamazov" he claims that mankind would rather extinguish themselves deliberately than to live a life without any chance to find a meaning for their existence. Heavy stuff, but it can touch you deeply like a prelude from Rachmaninov. Eventually it boils down to the myth of Sisyphus.

I think if one tries to handle such situations, one will mature personally. You just cannot get rid of hardship in your life. If you try to chase it away in one place it will squeeze in somewhere else. Maybe the level of frustration is a constant in everyone's life and no matter what you do, sooner or later you will be in the same place as before. The only real mistake would be to consider yourself as having failed, just because you don't grin all day long like these lying advertising signs...

[tiasjoy]

'not very good at practicing'.

Pizno, did you ask her why she thinks that?  Her words "not very good at" indicates she's heading for a downhill spiral.  I know myself, as soon as I "think" I'm not good at something, and probably never will be, I don't want to do it - (maths eg - I'd rather get a calculator out then use my head even to add up small numbers.. not that I can't do it, just that I "think" I won't be able to).

It's also a sign of danger that you're accepting this, and just 'going with the flow' - and I'm only addressing this because of going through it myself so recently.  I thought Preludium's post was so insightful, and so relevant.

if you want to completely demoralize a person you just have to give them loads of useless work.

  We as self employed business people are in a whole heap better position than so many others in the work force - to a certain extent, we CAN dictate exactly how we want to earn our money.  Even pianowolfi stated their problem with students who dont practise AT ALL.  I think that's where we're all coming from. 

Have you read articles from this site: https://www.practicespot.com/  I'd even recommend buying the book.  It gives a whole heap of reasons why kids don't practise, and then gives a whole heap of ideas what you can do about it.   Giving up isn't one of them.

One book who was struggling with practising in my studio basically kept forgetting!  No rebellion, no "I couldn't be bothered" he just seriously didn't remember.  I asked him what he did every day that never changed.  We went through a few things (showering, having dinner etc).  Finally I asked him what his favourite TV show was.  He told me.  Its on MON-FRI.   I said as soon as you hear the theme music (I sang it) you have to think - PIANO and play through your songs every commercial break.

The next week he remembered!  and was feeling really good about himself.

That lesson we had was mostly about what we could do to help him remember to practise.  In my education training, I remembered a phrase:  "Sometimes you have to waste time to save time."  Sitting down with a child and working out a plan of how to do things at home may seem like a waste of time, but now that boy doesn't have a problem with practise - it opened the way for me to set other ideas in motion with him.

For instance,  now that he remembers, he can also remember other things that go along with piano such as looking in his piano homework book.  He knows exactly when he's done what was expected, because he has to actually tick off boxes.  Some lessons, the boxes aren't ticked, and he tells me why.  Things aren't perfect, but that's okay, because I don't expect perfection - the other P word though, is something both teacher and student desire: progress.

Beware of burnout - it's so much easier to prevent than cure.

[pizno]

I'm not pushing this student too hard.  What she means by 'I'm not very good at practicing' only means that she doesn't do it, because she doesn't like to.  I honestly think it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with her commitment to piano and the fact that she is 13 and rather hang out with her friends.  Well, now she has broken her wrist, and her her mother is going to have a 'talk' with her about whether or not she wants to continue, once she has healed.

I guess we all feel differently about students.  I don't expect to be thrilled about every lesson, love each child, and feel like I am making a difference in each person's life.  BUT, I also would rather not sit with a 13 year old who doesn't want to be there.  It's a waste of my energy, and the money is not that important to me.  If she wants to continue, I will continue on with her, doing the best we can do.  I don't think anything will make her practice, though, and I'm sure she will be quitting before the end of the year.  I just went through this with my own daughter, and I understand what's going on with her.

Piz

[pianistimo]

maybe the fact you understand, and are compassionate and non-judgemental will make her change her mind at some point and actually start practicing more.  i kinda did this in 7th 8th grade.  in fact, i stopped for a year - and then realized howmuch i really missed piano and DID like it.  then, i practiced more.

[lenkaolenka]

Many think that reading words and reading music notes are the same process. Is this true?

        Children learn to read after they can speak fluently in the same language.  But when we play piano, we 'speak' with our fingers. They are our 'voice' and 'vocal chords.'  Do we have an inborn skill to manage our 10 fingers the same way that we control our vocal cords?  Of course not!  For this reason, a beginning piano student of any age misses keys and struggles with finger work, just like a baby whose first efforts at speaking begin with babbling and vocalizing sounds.  Obviously, teaching someone to read who can't say a single phrase is not the same as teaching a student who can't stop talking like a chatterbox.
   
 Another point to ponder--  five and six year old readers are already capable of focusing their eyesight on small letters and then shifting this focus along a line of words.  They often use their finger or a ruler to mark their place on a page because they are afraid of losing track of the words.  But when playing piano, there are more than ten black tracks and eleven white ones that a music reader must follow all at once!  Maintaining the eye’s focus over all these tracks is a skill required only in the arenas of piano playing and chess.  Unfortunately, piano beginners can't help themselves by pointing, because their fingers are busy with the keys.

     Reading the music is not the only obstacle that a piano student must face!
     
   Consider the spatial relationship of the keys on the piano to the music score.  A beginner  have to divide their eyesight between the notations on the music (no simple feat in itself) and their hands on the keys. Otherwise, they won't hit the right target!  Poor things, they can't sneeze or even blow their noses, for fear of losing their position on the keys- and taking forever to find it again!
     
   Another challenge is to learn the sound of a note ‘by ear’.  Any pre school child can already clearly tell the difference between O and U, and between U and Y. Unfortunately, this can usually not be said for the musical ear of the very same child. To determine the difference between C and C-sharp is not every child's (or even adult’s) forte. The reason for this is plain and simple: their entire life, children have been too busy with learning to express their desires with words!  It is a matter of survival for them, in some terms.  Put yourself in the child's shoes. You want to say, 'I want candy' and babble nonsense instead. What you do get? Perhaps, some steamed broccoli and carrots.  As for your ability to differentiate C from C–sharp- it’s not so crucial compared to real life drama, don't you think?
   
    To make a long story short, our kids are not naturally inclined to read music notation the same way they are ready to read books. They can't focus, their coordination skills are still developing, and their musical ear is in bad need of improvement.  No elementary school teacher would ever expect such 'beginners with special needs' to read books. No way!
     
   But piano teachers have no choice. They take such students with enthusiasm, because they simply love music, and, well… there is no alternative.  But at least they always have a chance to 'win the lottery' and to get some really smart-talking 'toddler,' (it is always exciting to have an element of unpredictability at your job).  They do their best to teach your child to play and enjoy music with the tools and methods available.

Work that is worth millions, but pays peanuts.
   
 Imagine this: you are an English teacher in a pre-school.   A producer of a mega-show approaches you and makes an offer. He says: 'If you take a one or two year-old toddler and teach this fella to recite Shakespeare's sonnet #55 in a couple of months to be filmed for our show, our company will reward you with 2 million dollars!'
     
What would be your plan?
     
First of all, you would try to select the most talented toddler that you could find. You would try to find a toddler that already has learned how to speak coherently enough to be understood.  This special little toddler has to have listening and concentration skills and be willing to repeat everything you say, perhaps with the help of a few sweet bribes.
     
Second, you would start with drills, you would continue with drills and you would never give up on drills. You would drill the poem word-by-word, day-by-day and week-by-week repeating and repeating and repeating again, rewarding each success.  We teach parrots to speak the same way.  There is no other way to make a young toddler drool, excuse me, to recite Shakespeare for a silly television show no matter how much they pay!   Toddlers, you see, are not motivated by money. 
     
Believe it or not, this is exactly what a piano teacher has to deal with every day when teaching beginners of any age.  Sadly, piano teachers are not getting paid millions for the job.  (Obviously they are not motivated by money either!)  The teacher must find different tricks and be very creative in convincing your child  (the one with limited coordination, who can't focus and can't recognize notes by ear properly, remember?)  to play piano and to enjoy doing it.  In addition, the piano teacher has to be an aid and an assistant at your helpless child's side, a babysitter and a nurse too.  He or she knows and understands what your child is going through,  feels your child's pain and tries to sweeten the pill with as much personal sugar and encouragement possible. Otherwise you and the child wouldn't be happy and motivated to continue lessons.
   
 You think, that I am exaggerating? Ok. Today you are about to drop your child at piano lesson and about to vanish – to run some errands. Can you stop running and attend the class for a change?  Try to absorb what is going on during the piano hour. In a traditional piano lesson, you will see that most of the lesson will be spent by the teacher trying  to help your child to see piano keys and music notes with theory explanations and pointing.  Your child will try his best to see them but will still be off track any way.

 In order to help your child to follow the track of music notes, the piano teacher will point at every note with a pen or pencil or with a cute little pointer (the most down to earth individuals use also a finger, too!)  They won't read the music piece in the same way that they read stories.  Most likely they will deal with 'one bar at a time' if they have just started a piece. They will work very hard and by 'work' I mean 'work' - labor with a lot of theory explanations and many, many drills. The student will eventually memorize the piece, because hard work always pays off.  Well, almost… sometimes!
     
Do you know what is the most common health problem among piano teachers? You may think that they would have hand or finger pain of some sort and you would be absolutely wrong!  Most piano teachers suffer from back pain.  They have back pain because they bend over your child for most of the lesson with a pointer in their hand.  In order to develop new skill any beginner makes a great number of mistakes.   A piano teacher is rather like a punching bag for a beginners' music success…. the student throws a lot of bad punches (or hit’s the wrong keys).   Being a professional with a sophisticated music ear, the piano teacher has to put up with a lot of false notes and rhythmical errors.  He will try his best to explain things to avoid this torture. But to know HOW to do it and to DO it,  is not the same thing.
     
Did you ever ask yourself: why do elementary schools kids take tests on reading, but in piano classes they mostly perform recitals?  The simple truth about why reading tests are not common in most piano classes is that the majority of piano students simply can't read a music score fluently! They artistically recite instead. 

[counterpoint]

Dear lenkaolenka,

I think, you have have touched the sore spot of the problem with teaching music. A high percentage of younger (and not so young) musicians is not able to read and play music by sight. They have to learn every new piece note by note in a long and toiling process. They don't know the fun to just playing around in new books. It's all hard work.

So, we need a method, how to teach better music reading.

Do you propably have such a method? Seems to me, you must have one, so I hope at least 

I'm very curious whether you can tell us some way out of this widespread problem!

[lenkaolenka]

Yes! In fact, I do!
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