She just doesn't practice!!

[pizno]

I know this has come up again and again.  But, I just have to vent.  A very sweet 13 year old student came for her lesson today.  It's her 4th.  She skipped last week.  2 weeks ago, she told me she 'forgot to practice'.  Today, 2 weeks later, she told me again that she forgot to practice.  I am bending over backwards to be nice, but I think I made it pretty clear that we are not going to make progress this way.  I wrote PRACTICE all over he notebook and put a big post it sticking out of her notebook that said 'Practice me please!' which she will see if she actually takes her books out of her book bag.  I'm hoping that she's getting that this is just stupid, me going over the same things over and over.  You'd think she'd be embarrassed.  I keep writing the same assignments in her notebook.  I wish I had a waiting list - because I would tell her that there are people waiting for spots, who DO want to practice.  Truly, it's kind of uncomfortable all the way around.  I feel pretty stupid saying the same things, drilling her on the same things, as if all is normal.  Her mom made it clear to me that she wasn't going to force her kids to practice, but this is ridiculous.  Just ONCE a week would help.  Also, she's not a good reader, at all, so she can't fake it, either. 

Pizno

[jpianoflorida]

It's very very frustrating! I understand! I have some students like that as well!   As long as Mom and Dad know what is going on, what can you do!   Some parents don't care if the kids practice or not and in that case you have 2 choices  1)put up with it and try not to let it get to you or 2) discontinue her lessons.      Personally as long as the parents are aware of what is going on, I keep trying to get them to practice(i dont' like to give up on a student, in fact I never do-they have to be the ones to quit)and that's about all you can do!   Some teachers may disagree with me on that, but everyone has to do what they think is best!   If you "fire" her what have you accomplished, because I've seen many nonpracticing students all of a sudden get movitaved and do well. If i had dismissed them from the studio they may have never played again!   I care more about the total student and potential for the future!

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Confront the student herself. If the reason for her lessons is to study or enjoy music, then she would practice. If she doesn't agree to practice at least some time of the week, then, discontinue lessons. If she doesn't want to take lessons, discontinue the lessons.

Hate to sound so obvious, but its the truth.

Best.

[steve_m]

3

[debussy symbolism]

But wouldn't she take the music sheet of anyways? She might realize that you are just trying to trick her to practice.

[timothy42b]

Greetings.

Confront the student herself. If the reason for her lessons is to study or enjoy music, then she would practice. If she doesn't agree to practice at least some time of the week, then, discontinue lessons. If she doesn't want to take lessons, discontinue the lessons.

Hate to sound so obvious, but its the truth.

Best.

The truth, possibly, but far from the only approach.

I'm sure she doesn't take math for enjoyment, yet I suspect she does her math homework without prompting.  My kids do, though they had to be reminded to practice.  The difference is solely in the reinforcement schedule (that's a technical term from psychology courses!) 

Kids don't have to do 20 minutes of math, they have to do problems 1, 2, 4, and 8.  They get graded on them, and it is 40% (or whatever) of their course grade.  If you set up lessons the same way, you get the same results.

After all, we expect very few of our piano students to become concert pianists, and even fewer math students to become mathematicians.  But we do think there is benefit to making them take the class in both cases. 

[jpianoflorida]

The truth, possibly, but far from the only approach.

I'm sure she doesn't take math for enjoyment, yet I suspect she does her math homework without prompting.  My kids do, though they had to be reminded to practice.  The difference is solely in the reinforcement schedule (that's a technical term from psychology courses!) 

Kids don't have to do 20 minutes of math, they have to do problems 1, 2, 4, and 8.  They get graded on them, and it is 40% (or whatever) of their course grade.  If you set up lessons the same way, you get the same results.

After all, we expect very few of our piano students to become concert pianists, and even fewer math students to become mathematicians.  But we do think there is benefit to making them take the class in both cases.  and Debussy, you approach sounds so easy, but it's not easy......like timothy says, most of our students are going to get something out of lessons, but not many are going to use music for a career...and even they great pianists may have had times they didn't want to practice or do it!

thanks timothy...my thoughts exactly! and it goes back to the parents, if they aren't going to make her practice, there's not a lot you can do!  Debussy it's not that simple....we are educators and we educate who we are given.   Most students we teach aren't going to make music a career, it's part of their education.  If most teachers dropped students for not practicing like we thought they should, there probably wouldn't be very many piano students out there!

[urbanspice]

Sometimes with students like this it is best to get rid of your expectations. Don't expect them to practice, then you won't get upset. Accept the fact that there will be little or no progress for (possibly) a long time. Then you won't be tempted to nag, yell. scream, or throw in the towel.

I have several non-practicers and used several diferent approaches. Whether it worked or not depended on the student. Try some of the following, and if it's not working go to the next.
1. Give them practice session tips. I tell my students, however old you are that is how many minutes you have to practice. (Remember the goal is to get into the habit of practicing not zipping through a method book,ect). Read The Practice Revolution and other practicing books for ideas. Some of the ideas I give to my students are:
- practice in the morning before school
- practice in between commercials
- practice at 6:43 every evening
- practice with Mom
Present the student with several choices and have them choose which one they would like to try. This one worked wonders on a student just coming out of boarding school from England where there was a set time to practice and apparently not as much homework. She was overwhelmed and needed help organizing her time
2. Give students a song they want to learn - whether Faber fun books, chopsticks, heart and soul, or Fur Elise. There are millions of versions of every popular song so anyone can learn to play it or you can teach it by ear. And even though you may have a breakdown if you hear that song murdered one more time, if they are practicing who cares! The point of music is to bring joy into the lives of students and not necessarily our ears.
3. Try a different method. It seems I have tried or used every single method that there is! For a fifteen year old slacker who "just doesn't care" and is a little immature, I use a combination of three methods. He has really taken to A Dozen a Day series bk 1. I add an exercise everyday and little by little, without him seeming to realize it he is practicing longer and longer. And he really seems to like this series and tries very hard to play the music correctly. He also uses the Kids Keyboard Course by HAl Leonard, which I used to give him a break from note reading and help him learn chords. And lastly, I have him doing the twinkles from Suzuki bk 1. He is doing this by music and not be ear. This is for his reading, since the notes are the same, and to help him with his rhythm. The response, after more than a year of lessons and maybe less than a month of practicing total, has been very good.
4. A semi-serious talk. A nonconfrontational talk with no angry voices or eyes. Just a serious tone and a serious face. Depending upon the age discuss the following
- money - don't just say it costs such and such. Relate the cost into something the student can grasp. If a student likes Barbie Dolls say: Lessons cost XX and that is amounts to XXX barbie dolls, isn't that alot? Do you really want to waste your parents' money
- Progress - Ask do you think you're a good piano player? Why or why not? Do you think you could be better if you practiced a little more?
Do not do this every lesson. This is a quartly, bi-yearly, annual conversation. You do not want to embarrass, humiliate, or depress the kid. Then, as soon as it is over, go to something else and don't mention it again.
5. Postive Re-enforcement - If they come to a lesson and actually practice do not ignore it or be sarcastic. Smile, shake their hand, do a little jig.
6. Direct them towards group lessons - being with their peers may help them focus and decide to want to practice
7. Show them how to practice.  Give them specific directions or try a game. A really great game that I do with my students is that we go over a complete list of dynamics, articulation, and other musical terms. I tell them the definitions and they decide if they want to use it. The number of choices they get depends on their age. 7=7, 9=9. They decide what order to do their choices, then we practice a song of theirs X number of times, each time doing something different like staccato or crescendo or mezzo-forte. They take the list home and practice like that.
8. Divide the lesson into two bi-weekly lessons instead of one. So, the day before the lesson when the student realizes he has a lesson and has not practiced.... he does, twice a week! Amazing!
9. Trigger Effect - Students don't practice because they forget until the last minute. ( Adults do the same, including me. I can't tell you how many Sunday nights I spent practicing for a lesson on Monday and I was in college! Luckily I had a great teacher, great sight read abilities and just enough talent to get by!) A trigger effect helps them think piano-practice-I-must-practice!!!!! Use a word or phrase or color -Watermelon Soda, Cheerios, Suite Life of Zack and Cody, whatever, and say it like a million times at each lesson. Eventually it will trigger them to remember. Also, constantly remind the students that when you remember or think of piano you can't just think of it. You have to practice it. You have to.
10. Teach them a song that they can't take home. Try a jazz\blues song or some other catchy tune. One line a week but because they won't practice it won't make sense for them to take it home.
11. Teach them by ear. (Playing piano is playing piano and odds are these students will not be concert pianist but they may turn out to be the awesome pianist of the next hot music group -- The Fray, Keane, Alicia Keyes.) Try pop songs, try classical songs, try Suzuki or folk songs like row your boat. If it works, it works.
12. Teach them composition. They have to eventually learn rhythms, notes on the piano, proper writing techniques\fundamentals.
13. Teach them theory. Same as above
14. Teach them history.
15. Make sure you know what the underlining problem is: too much to do and not enough time, note reading deficiencies, lack of motivation, lack of organization, depression, fear of failure... If you know the reason, you can find what works for your student. And this, of course, requires communication. Talk to your students, not down or at. Make sure you are having a back and forth conversation. Even with the little ones.

"how did practice go this week?" says the awesome teacher in a cheery voice.
"Ummm...well.... I didn't really.... uh .... practice" mumbles the guilty student while looking into the corner of the ceiling.
"Oh, that's too bad. How come?"
Listen carefully to that answer. It will tell you what the problem is.


This list should keep you busy for the entire year. And when it's time to start lessons again, start right back at the beginning if you need to. Eventually, they will decide they want to play piano or they don't. That should be their decision, unless they are, of course, cruel, mean and afflicted with the nasties. But otherwise, keep them until they decide to leave. That's my philosophy. And you never know, in a few years they may be singing your praises for not giving up on them.

Teacher Motto:
Don't give up.
Don't get angry.
My job is to bring music into their lives.
My job is to fix the problems. Even the hard ones.

[jpianoflorida]

Teacher Motto:
Don't give up.
Don't get angry.
My job is to bring music into their lives.
My job is to fix the problems. Even the hard ones


Thanks urban spice! I like that! Is it your original??

[jpianoflorida]

-" Eventually, they will decide they want to play piano or they don't. That should be their decision, unless they are, of course, cruel, mean and afflicted with the nasties. But otherwise, keep them until they decide to leave. That's my philosophy. And you never know, in a few years they may be singing your praises for not giving up on them.

That's my philosophy as well...what gives us the right to determine who can or can't have lessons?   I teach ALL who are willing to come for lessons!   If I can't teach them ,, then it's my problem and I need to learn how to relate to them!   If you blame the student then you are basically going to become arrogant and not effective!   and YES i have had students that would test your last nerve, etc....but you know what? in the long run of things, I learned from them!

[pianowolfi]

Ok you two seem to have unlimited patience.  i admit, more than I have. I've had a few cases where I decided to stop lessons because of not practising. And i don't regret so far. It is my job to teach piano. Somebody who does not practise constantly with no chance of getting better in the future makes my work just impossible. I can't do my work then. And I tell these students that they have to do their part of that work that i can't do. Otherwise it is actually better I practise and they go their ways. In most of these cases they seemed relieved when I stopped the lessons. And so was I.

[timothy42b]

It is my job to teach piano. Somebody who does not practise constantly with no chance of getting better in the future makes my work just impossible. I can't do my work then.

I would suggest you may have defined your job too narrowly.

When I sent my child to piano lessons, I did not expect her to become a concert pianist or even highly technically skilled.  I believed that some amount of music was a mandatory part of a rounded education, and I let her choose piano as opposed to band, chorus, or other selections available.  Even though she did not become a skilled player, she was exposed to the basic language of music at an early enough age it had a chance to sink in, and I consider my money well spent. 

Perhaps some parents are only paying you to teach "piano."  I paid my daughter's teacher to teach music and would have been disappointed if piano were not a means to that end.  I think most parents are the same type customer I am. 

This makes your job a little more comprehensive, but it makes it easier in some ways.  You can succeed without producing a Horowitz, and you've still done your part. 

[counterpoint]

  Even though she did not become a skilled player, she was exposed to the basic language of music at an early enough age it had a chance to sink in, and I consider my money well spent. 

I think most parents are the same type customer I am. 

I fear that's true (what you said about parents - customers) 

They want their kids to be exposed  to music, to sink in

Are you aware, that these words do describe passive (!) situations, where the kid will do nothing but wait for activities coming over him/her? If you really think, that's good for your child, buy him/her some CDs or Videos or go to the concert.

Learning an instrument does require a lot of time and energy, it's like climbing a mountain. If you want the kid to easily get up the mountain, you could by a ticket for a cable railway, but the kid will not make the experience, how it is to climb a mountain.

[timothy42b]

I fear that's true (what you said about parents - customers) 

Learning an instrument does require a lot of time and energy, it's like climbing a mountain.

Parents are customers.  Teachers are employees.  Why should not this be so?  Is there something wrong with that? 

I am a parent with clear goals.  I believe in general music education.  I believe it is a mandatory course, just as essential as math or writing.  I think it is a shame that the public education system has greatly reduced or eliminated music education, so I am willing to pay for it privately.  Piano lessons are one of the few options out there.  I make my kids take a limited amount of music just as I make them take math - because I believe there is a benefit to it.  I don't expect them to see that at their age, or like it. 

I expect my kids to work hard and do their homework at all their classes.  There is nothing passive about this.  But I also know they can derive the benefits without achieving a high degree of technical skill.  A teacher whose job is to "teach piano" may or may not be in line with my goals.  A teacher who bases his/her success on the performance skill of the student is definitely not in line with my goals.  (although if there is not some improvement I'd be wondering why)

Do you not believe music education is important?  Do you not believe piano lessons are a subset of that? 

[pianowolfi]

I was just talking about having stopped lessons with people that didn't practise at all anymore. So if you encourage your children to do their homework this hopefully includes piano practise. And then there would be no reason to stop lessons. I did not say a word of producing Horowitzes at all. I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. But piano playing is not possible without practising. Of course I could enlarge my activities with listening classes where people would be introduced into music by listening to the great masterworks or st like that. But I am a piano teacher. People hire me for giving their kids or themselves piano lessons. Their goal is to develop skills. And this is not possible without regular practice. You can not expect  from a painter to accept students who never would touch a paint-brush. So you can't expect from a piano teacher to accept students who refuse to touch a piano outside their lesson time. All that reminds ma a bit of one of my adult students who played a Bartok piece in her lesson. I told her that she was playing the right notes but not yet the correct rhythm. And then I tried to explain and demonstrate the rhythm to her. She got somehow angry and told me she didn't want to become a professional pianist. Great goodness!!! As if a bit of correct playing would make a professional out of her.

[pianowolfi]

Of course their is more to say about this subject. I will come back to this topic later.

[timothy42b]

Their goal is to develop skills. 

I am not convinced this is true.  Not all parents may have thought this through in much depth, but I think their goals are both broader and shallower than yours, and this disconnect may be part of the problem. 

I agree with you that the problem of children not practicing seems to be widespread.  But it occurs to me that the same children spend hours on their other homework, even for classes they dislike more than piano.  So the problem is not the child and not the parent, it is the approach. 

[pianowolfi]

If you teach piano and your students have 30 or 50 or 60 min. lessons once a week there is no time to do other things than piano. Of course my approach is to do a broad variety of music teaching as much as possible. But I would need at least two more weekly lessons to teach music in general. And people won't want to pay for that.The charges here are very high. So I depend on students having a good school music class. Without that it is difficult, almost impossible to do piano teaching.

Fortunately the cases where I felt supposed to end lessons were rare. Usually it needs a decided passive or active opposition against me or piano lessons on the part of the student to bring me to that point.

[counterpoint]

If you teach piano and your students have 30 or 50 or 60 min. lessons once a week there is no time to do other things than piano.

I totally agree with pianowolfi.

In addition to this: you should be very clear, that this max 60 min per week in no way could provide any learning effect, if the kid doesn't practise every day, so that there is some material, the teacher can work on in the lesson.

And about the fear, getting inadvertantly Horowitz-like playing abilities: the risk for this  is not as big, as some people seem to think. You don't have to worry about this danger 

General lessons about music would surely be a great thing, but this can better be done in greater groups and not in single-person lessons.

[timothy42b]

Okay, okay, I'm wrong, along with 99% of other parents.

So what do you think is the benefit of piano lessons to the average person?  (not those destined for the music conservatory)  It would seem you are saying none. 

And by the way, have you tried any other approach to practice?  Besides giving grades, the math teacher makes some pretty specific demands.  He would never dream of saying "do 20 minutes of math."  What are the chances that would work?  Hee, hee.  No, he says do problems 1, 2, 4, 7, and 8d.  Would a piano student do better if told to play measures 1-4 exactly 7 times with right hand, 14 times with left hand, and 10 times together? 

[pianowolfi]

Okay, okay, I'm wrong, along with 99% of other parents.

So what do you think is the benefit of piano lessons to the average person?  (not those destined for the music conservatory)  It would seem you are saying none.

 

Their benefit will be that they learn to play the piano.

And by the way, have you tried any other approach to practice?  Besides giving grades, the math teacher makes some pretty specific demands.  He would never dream of saying "do 20 minutes of math."  What are the chances that would work?  Hee, hee.  No, he says do problems 1, 2, 4, 7, and 8d.  Would a piano student do better if told to play measures 1-4 exactly 7 times with right hand, 14 times with left hand, and 10 times together? 

For some people it's better to say 20 min. and for others it will be better to say do this and this and this piece or part 5 or 7 or 10 times and to explain why. It's different from person to person. But let's get down to business: how much do your children practise the piano? (if this question is allowed) You really have made me curious.

[penguinlover]

I like the idea of breaking up a piece. I get much better results from my students when I say I only want them to do so many measures.  They don't get overwhelmed.  Has anyone considered bribes?  Prizes for the amount of practice they do?  Verified by the parent of course!

I try to consider the student.  I know they are coming to me for piano lessons, but I give them more.  I try to teach the love of music.  I try to teach habits of discipline, consistency, and accomplishment.  I hope in the long run, I give my students more than just music.  I want to be more than just "the piano teacher" to them.  Does that make any sense?

[timothy42b]

I think about 1% of parents believe they have their own Mozart and send the kid to piano lessons sure they will have a concert pianist career after finishing Julliard in one year.  The other 99% of us do it because we think or hope it will be "good for them" in some unspecified way related to music education.  Some parents like myself who are musicians may have thought about "good for them" in a little more detail, others are pretty vague.

If we thought all that would happen is they would "learn piano" we wouldn't waste a dime on lessons.  Sorry.  But that's good in a way, few kids ever learn to play fluently, yet we don't demand our money back, we think they got something out of it. 

My kids practiced the amount the teacher said, 10 or 15 minutes (piano and trumpet).  They did this because I sent them into the music room with a kitchen timer, and it was a bit of a struggle nagging them to do it.  It has never been a problem getting them to do math homework without asking, even though neither one likes math.  That's why I thought a different approach might be better.   

[pianowolfi]

Why do you consider learning the piano being so little? I usually work with students who want exactly that and are not expecting from me to give them a full music education (which is obviously a good thing btw). They would be disappointed if  the main subject of my lessons was not piano learning. Of course I also notice the difference between doing homework and practising. I think this is a very multilayer phenomenon that has to do with the position of music in general in our society and can not be resolved by piano teachers or parents alone. I live in a region where music is treated in a very ambivalent way. On the one hand it is supported by the public authorities. On the other hand you are a sort of outlaw, at least a curiosity, if you are a fulltime musician. Especially a classical one. It is almost impossible to find a flat for instance. And people who have studied music professionally on a very high level get married to managers and quit their job saying "my husband/wife earns the money. as a musician you can't make a living." It is schizophrenic. And piano teachers are for sure no politicians and no social workers to tackle this sort of problems. So you have to deal with it. You need to compromise daily. The only chance are the students themselves. I work a lot on keeping a positive and motivating style of teaching. I try always to choose pieces the students like to learn. I try to feel what they want, what they need. I try to found my teaching on teamwork rather than lecturing. And so on and so on.

[tibi]

i have a same problem here. two years ago i had about 15 students with me. and 80 percent of them doesn't practice. so we were just walking in the same place from week to week and month to month. and finally, some of them were decide to stop the lessons, and in other cases i choose to leave out. and today i just have 3 students. but, finally i regret my decision to leave out. like some words here, maybe they would never have a piano lessons again and that is my mistake.

we as a teacher always try to do our best to make our students better and better. but when the parents says "i don't want my son/daughter to become a concert pianist, i just BELIEVE that music is good for them". what? what you believe? me as a piano teacher wants may student to be able to play ANY song they want to play, that is my job to bring them to that song. i will be very very very happy if one of my student become the next Horowitz, but that is not my goal. my goal is to make them able to play for themselves just for their own satisfaction.

i want to share a bit. i have a piano lesson since i was 5 years old (i am 21 now). my parents push me to practice everyday. may mother always sit next to me to watch me practice and about once a month, my father will look over our (me and my 2 brother) piano playing. when we made a mistake, than our hand would be hit by a ruler or something else. it was happend so i started to think "why they push me to do so? i dont like piano!! it doesnt give me anything" but by the aged of 9, i dunt know how, i can play most of richard clayderman by ear. start from that point until now, i always think " if my parents push me harder and hit me harder,  maybe i would a better pianist today". my point is, children doesnt know things that are good for them. it is parent's job to feed them. will you stop giving your child a vegetables when they say that they dont like it? i dont think so. it is a same problem here (even different cases).

i also sad with the mindset "you can make a living as musician". what kind of living do you expect? drive a ferrari, having a yacht, having a private jet just like beckham? is that a life that you expect? me myself, doesnt expect so. as long as i have living for me and my family, it is enough for me. there are somethings that money can't buy. you can not buy the sensation when you finish playing one composition. it is something that you an not exchange with money.

i'm not trying to push my idea to be recieve by all parents who read this. just want to remind, we as a teacher facing a dilemma. if we press on the student to make them pratice than the parents would say "we dunt wish our children to become a Horowitz", but in the other side when there is no improvement they would say "the teacher is not good... bla... bla... bla...". is the problem with the teacher? i had student with very poor improvement, even after years of lesson, he still difficult to read, but in the other hand, i have my student win a local piano competition. so who must be blame on? if you doesnt WISH your children to become a better PIANO PLAYER (not pianist like Horowitz), than dont give them a piano lesson. better spent your money to buy a chocolate to make your children "happy" and give your piano for those who really WISH to make sound on it.

[counterpoint]

Dear Tibi,

I must state clearly, that it is not acceptable to hurt a child in any situation. If we talk about playing piano, we all make faults, that's normal, not a reason to get additional punishment. The wrong notes are hurting enough 

I totally aggree with you, what you say in the last passage, the target of piano lessons is to get the ability to play the piano, especially the pieces, the student likes and wants to play himself. If he doesn't want to play at all, piano lessons don't make any sense in my view either.

[pizno]

Maybe most parents want their children to continue to lessons - even after it is obvious that it is not doing anything for them because:
1)They do not want their child to later say 'I wish you had made me continue'.

2)They feel it is their responsibility as a parent to equip them with skills that THEY know are going to benefit them as an adult. 

3)They feel it fits into what it takes to be a 'good parent'.

But, if it is not working, it is not working.  I let my daughter quit, at 14, about 6 months ago, and she has not laid a finger on the piano.  She does incredible drawings, though.  I think her passion is more in the visual arts, it just took me a really long time to see that.

Pizno

[timothy42b]

when the parents says "i don't want my son/daughter to become a concert pianist, i just BELIEVE that music is good for them".

what? what you believe?

me as a piano teacher wants may student to be able to play ANY song they want to play, that is my job to bring them to that song.

I think tibi has eloquently stated the disconnect. 

The goals of the parent and the goals of the teacher are often NOT the same, and neither realizes it.  This causes much of the frustration for both parent and teacher, and ultimately for the child. 

The parent as paying customer has the right to set the goals.  Of course few of them have thought it out with enough clarity.  The teacher as employee can decide that service is not one they will provide and send the parent to another teacher. 

Perhaps it is worth asking parents exactly what their goal is.  I told my daughter's piano teacher what I expected, and she thought it was reasonable.  Had she told me she only taught conservatory candidates, I would have been grateful for her candor and moved on to the next teacher. 

[ingagroznaya]

  If most teachers dropped students for not practicing like we thought they should, there probably wouldn't be very many piano students out there!

Oh, now I understand.

and so is as many teachers .

Nils asked me to be polite, so I'll just not comment. I'll restrain my self.

ps. If not for this forum, I would not know what an american teacher should and should not do

[tibi]

I think tibi has eloquently stated the disconnect. 

The goals of the parent and the goals of the teacher are often NOT the same, and neither realizes it.  This causes much of the frustration for both parent and teacher, and ultimately for the child. 

The parent as paying customer has the right to set the goals.  Of course few of them have thought it out with enough clarity.  The teacher as employee can decide that service is not one they will provide and send the parent to another teacher. 

Perhaps it is worth asking parents exactly what their goal is.  I told my daughter's piano teacher what I expected, and she thought it was reasonable.  Had she told me she only taught conservatory candidates, I would have been grateful for her candor and moved on to the next teacher. 

when you send your children to the piano teacher, what does you expect as a result from it? ability to playing basket? i dunt think so. for sure, you are wishing AT LEAST your child able to play EVEN just one simple song CORRECTLY. if you said that my statement before is disconnected, so than what is your goal when you send your children to piano teacher?

i was stated it clearly, my goal as piano teacher (and i believe it is the same as most of the teacher) is to make my student able to play ANY song THEY wish to play.. not to play song that i WISH. now, if the student doesnt even have any interest to ONE song (any types of song, could be pop, could be classical) than, they would not feel motivated and at the end they would not practice as they should be, finally they give a "hurt attack" to their piano teacher.   

you know, piano teacher's job is about triple harder than math or other skills.
1. you must use your eyes to see the fingering, and it's technic
2. you must use your ears to hear the sound
3. you must use you heart to feel the emotion flowing from the piano
4. you must use your brain to make sure all aspect is balance, from pedalling, tone, note's clearly, dynamic.
5. you must use your mouth to count, to sing, etc

compare to math teacher
1. just use their eyes when they must check the work
2. just use their ears when student asking
3. it is needed to use your heart when examining student's work?
4. they only use their brain when they need to explain to the student
5. use their mouth to explain.

see the contrast here? piano theacher must have their concentration 150 percent in the length of lessons. one that make it harder is, when students playing hurtly. i really thanks to God for his bless, so that i can still have patient to teach that kind of students. other thing that make me (and for sure any other teacher) still in this field is love to music itself. i believe, that someday, maybe next week, next month, or even next years, that students able to feel the sensation bring by the music, and they start to love it and PRACTICING it.. 
i'm sure that most of the piano teacher doesnt put money as main concern (now i have a lessons with one of the greatest pianist in my country for free), but for the satisfaction that comes when i can hear my student playing pieces correctly, it can't measure by money. i'm here because of music, not because of money. maybe i sound Ridiculous, but it is really what i feel.

[pizno]

Yes, you are right, we do have a very difficult job.  It's hard sometimes to keep from nodding off while they try to find the notes.  Or, get so busy writing down assignments that I forget to pay attention to what they are doing. 

Today, she proudly announced that she practiced!  I suspected that she meant once.  She also trimmed her nails! She seemed happy, so we took what we could get.  Even if it meant struggling through the same things again.  It was a major accomplishment to have her play one measure of a piece I gave hr 4 weeks ago ( a little too hard, would you say?), though.  IF only she knew that the beginner I taught before her is already up to her level after 5 weeks of lessons, and this 13 year old has studied 2-3 years.


Piz

[tibi]

one measure of piece that already given 4 weeks ago... hhmm... what piece?

you, it also happend to me for several times. sometimes in the past (Rarely), i even forgot to write the assignment because of too concentrate to student's playing.

any little improvement will bring a lot of pleasure for me.. deeply inside, i will said "finally i can get through it". even sometimes the student themselves doesn't realize the improvement they achive. it it a luxurious that money can't buy

[dorfmouse]

[you know, piano teacher's job is about triple harder than math or other skills./quote]

Aaarrrrgh!! I just can't let this go by!

Have you ever had to teach classes of 30 pupils, of whatever age or in whatever subject, all with varying stages of motivation or lack of,  5 hours per day, with all the joyful extras of group dynamics, preparation, marking for starters.

And no possibility of dropping those who don't practice!

[dorfmouse]

I'll try to do it right this time!

you know, piano teacher's job is about triple harder than math or other skills.

Aaaargh!! I just can't let this go by!

Have you ever had to teach classes of 30 pupils, of whatever age or in whatever subject, all with varying stages of motivation or lack of,  5 hours per day, with all the joyful extras of group dynamics, preparation, marking (for starters).

And no possibility of dropping those who don't practice or foul-mouth you ... well, maybe if they burn down the school.

[loops]

you know, piano teacher's job is about triple harder than math or other skills.
1. you must use your eyes to see the fingering, and it's technic
2. you must use your ears to hear the sound
3. you must use you heart to feel the emotion flowing from the piano
4. you must use your brain to make sure all aspect is balance, from pedalling, tone, note's clearly, dynamic.
5. you must use your mouth to count, to sing, etc

compare to math teacher
1. just use their eyes when they must check the work
2. just use their ears when student asking
3. it is needed to use your heart when examining student's work?
4. they only use their brain when they need to explain to the student
5. use their mouth to explain.

I can't let this go by either, but hey *Everybody* thinks they have the hardest job!

What's this "Just eyes" to look at work? I can assure you, I am not an optical scanner checking
they ticked the correct box! The maths I teach involves looking at pages of calculations and
arguments...where did they go wrong? Does the line of argument have any chance of success?

What's this "just ears when student is asking"? You have be listening for what might be the question
they mean to ask. What is the actual problem? Students are not so articulate they can formulate the question whose answer alleviates their problems. And then you have to figure out not just the solution, but how to
explain it.

What's this "it is needed to use your heart when examining student's work?" The maths I teach (undergrad to PhD level, but it would be the same for high school teachers doing project work) involves *creativity*, lateral
thinking, multi-dimensional visualisations, etc etc .. finding that elusive path to a correct proof to a conjecture,
a correct algorithm, a correct computer graphic, not only to find but to communicate a deep, non-verbal understanding.
 
Sorry, but music and art do not have a monopoly on human creativity or expression. Mathematics is one
way humans understand the world they live in. Primary school arithmetic is as far from what I do as
humming is from La Traviata.

So here is my greatest teaching challenge re undergraduates: How do I explain to someone how to
solve the problem when I can see the answer instantly and don't know how I know?
And re postgraduates: " How do I explain how to solve a problem no-one else has ever solved before
when the process involved is almost entirely non-verbal and subject to individual cognitive style?"

[ingagroznaya]

I promised not to get involved, but I can't stand to look at this discussion. I feel like it's the time to demonstrate :" Drop-ping! Drop-ping! Drop-ping!" Louder. Who is with me?

On a serious note - Pizno, kid needs to practice. You can not teach her anything otherwise. Not if she is not touching a piano between lessons. Drop her. It does not matter how sweet she is, she'll drain you in a month. It will affect your work with other students.

Make it a part of your policy - lessons will be terminated if a student does not practice. Enforce it. You'll be a better teacher for it. Word gets around. Reputation counts. It's not about what her mother thinks, it is about your integrity. Let me clarify - your professionalism and integrity.

This kid will quit on you few month from now. You know what is next? Her mom will bring her to me. What do you think I'll think of you as a teacher?  Pizno does not care about his work. It's never a kid or a parent. Dump her as soon as you can.

[ingagroznaya]

Mediterranean market. Can you, guys, stay on the subject? Eyes, ears...Hard to believe some of you are teachers. No offence.

[timothy42b]

It's not about what her mother thinks, it is about your integrity. Let me clarify - your professionalism and integrity.

The mother is, after all, paying for it.  Doesn't it matter a little bit what she thinks?  Doesn't clarifying and agreeing on goals make sense? 

Of course kids should practise.   We all agree on that.  We don't agree on how to get them to, or why they should.  The simple minded "drop them if they don't" approach will absolutely work.  Eventually you'll find one who will.  You've discarded the other 99 who could have. 

[ingagroznaya]

Timothy, I spend over an hour of my time before I take a student in to my studio or start the lessons, clarifying and agreeing on goals. I fully intend to follow my agreement. I expect the same from the student/parent. Who is paying who does not really matter. My students represent my work. One lazy kid does represent nothing, but his family.

[ingagroznaya]

The mother is, after all, paying for it.  Doesn't it matter a little bit what she thinks? 

From what I understand Pizno already explained to the happy Mom his typical drill ( practicing is a must ). She chose to ignore it. Some parents do ( it's usually parents who never played an instrument ). Pizno is the teacher and it is his job to let the paying party know, that's where his responsibility ends as a private instructor. He is just as free to choose as you are.

I actually feel just as sad for those 90 students with 15 minutes lessons or full 30 minutes who "could have" in Florida.

The world is a fantastic place and I am sure things will balance them selfs out at some point. Pizno is a younger teacher from what I understand. With time he will learn.

[ingagroznaya]

Of course kids should practise.   We all agree on that.  We don't agree on how to get them to, or why they should. 

They should because there is no other way to learn the piano has been invented yet.

How? Repeating each song 3 time per day. 5 days per week. Simple. It's your money. Teach them responsibilities. They wash their hands, do other homework. Please...

[ingagroznaya]

The simple minded "drop them if they don't" approach will absolutely work.  Eventually you'll find one who will.  You've discarded the other 99 who could have. 

I found 40. That's 80 parents who CAN.

[ingagroznaya]

yep. Who CAN and who DO.

You can't compare private piano instructions to learning math in a group settings. Eyes, ears, focus, concentration or boredom has nothing to do with it. A parent has no choice with other schooling - home work must be done, so he is never gave a such a choice to a child. Private school is no different. It's not about money paid, Tymofey.
Your kid is not going to stick around in a private school for long if he is not prepared.

It's always a silly parent who think Pizno is going to put up with all the BS. Cause Pizno is hungry. Poor artistic Pizno needs money. So if you can take at least some homework aggravation out of your house, you will. And at the end of the day you can proudly say to friends and neighbors " I take my kid to piano lessons". It's the image, power, who is in charge thing.

( I say " you " for an ease of communicating my point. I understand your kid is practicing somewhat. )

[tibi]

I can't let this go by either, but hey *Everybody* thinks they have the hardest job!

What's this "Just eyes" to look at work? I can assure you, I am not an optical scanner checking
they ticked the correct box! The maths I teach involves looking at pages of calculations and
arguments...where did they go wrong? Does the line of argument have any chance of success?

What's this "just ears when student is asking"? You have be listening for what might be the question
they mean to ask. What is the actual problem? Students are not so articulate they can formulate the question whose answer alleviates their problems. And then you have to figure out not just the solution, but how to
explain it.

What's this "it is needed to use your heart when examining student's work?" The maths I teach (undergrad to PhD level, but it would be the same for high school teachers doing project work) involves *creativity*, lateral
thinking, multi-dimensional visualisations, etc etc .. finding that elusive path to a correct proof to a conjecture,
a correct algorithm, a correct computer graphic, not only to find but to communicate a deep, non-verbal understanding.
 
Sorry, but music and art do not have a monopoly on human creativity or expression. Mathematics is one
way humans understand the world they live in. Primary school arithmetic is as far from what I do as
humming is from La Traviata.

So here is my greatest teaching challenge re undergraduates: How do I explain to someone how to
solve the problem when I can see the answer instantly and don't know how I know?
And re postgraduates: " How do I explain how to solve a problem no-one else has ever solved before
when the process involved is almost entirely non-verbal and subject to individual cognitive style?"

sorry if you think that being piano teacher is hardest job. it's my false, since i didn't stated my idea in a right way. but i did a job as Math teacher 4 years a go. now we are talking music and math in general, not as an advance studying (everything that goes to advance is required all of resources to be succes). we take one case here. me as a piano teacher, an you as a math teacher. there is one 10 years old boy. both you and me giving him assignment to do. which one that have higher possibility to be accomplish by him? my, or your assignment? and, if the he doesn't do any of it, which one will bring his mother to angry? your job as math teacher already lighter in the mean of you have their mother to do her part. while in piano lesson, mostly parents doesn't involved in it. what i'm going to say here is, music always put as a secondary subject, a minor subject in daily life. i'm not going to state that music is more important as math or any other subject. but when your child take a piano lesson, than she/he have a responsibility to do their job.

[timothy42b]

( I say " you " for an ease of communicating my point. I understand your kid is practicing somewhat. )

Of course my kids practiced, both the one taking piano lessons and the one taking trumpet lessons.  Sure was harder to get them to do it than to do their math homework, though, even with me setting an example with my own daily practice. 

However, there's only so much time in a day, and I don't believe in loading a child up with every activity known to man.  If I didn't believe they were getting more from music than merely learning a mechanical skill they'll never use again, I would have picked some other enrichment activity than piano.  Or found another teacher whose philosophy more matched mine. 

[penguinlover]

Back to the original topic, the girl who didn't practice.  Well, she did practice this week, and was proud of herself.  Probably she will continue to practice just to continue to have that feeling of accomplishment.  Be sure to reward her, praise her.  Don't compare her to your other beginner students, all of us are different, with different abilities.   Just encourage her so she will keep it up!  She proved to herself that practice isn't bad, and it IS possible to do it! 

[lau]

I don't understand why teachers get frustrated when their students don't practice. Your still getting paid...it's their life and they can do what they want with their lesson

[pianowolfi]

I don't understand why teachers get frustrated when their students don't practice. Your still getting paid...it's their life and they can do what they want with their lesson

Then try to teach and you will see how it is.

[jpianoflorida]

Then try to teach and you will see how it is.

Yes...Agreed pianowolfi

[lau]

i have teached, though i did it for free.  i taught my sister's boyfriend the melody to turkish march while i play the left hand in volodos version      anyway, i didn't get frustrated, and it's not like he was progressing at a prodegy pace.

 I remember what it was like when i was learning and i hated it when i noticed the teacher getting impatient. I say if you get angry with your students when they don't practice or whatever then you shouldn't be a teacher. The student may just not be practicing because of the pressure of the teacher, and may want to just quit the piano. that's what i wanted to do.