US forces

[ada]

So a former US private has been indicted for breaking into a house in an Iraqi town, raping a 14 year old girl, killing her and her father, mother and six-year-old sister and setting fire to her body.

He was just one of five and I'm sure it doesn't end there. Remember the delightful Lindy England and her mates in Abu Graib.

I know the US refuses to pull out of Iraq (for fear of causing chaos, as opposed to the law and order that reigns at the moment) but has the administration given any consideration to what's going to happen when these damaged, deadly and unstable young men are let loose and given access to guns back in their own country? What about the lessons of Vietnam? Or are memories too short?

What are you going to do? Pray?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Why would these "deadly, unstable" young men set fire to their own country? Kind of defeats the point of making peace don't you think. I do of course hope that such nonsense, perfidious actions don't take place anywhere of course.

[prometheus]

...but has the administration given any consideration to what's going to happen when these damaged, deadly and unstable young men are let loose and given access to guns back in their own country? What about the lessons of Vietnam? Or are memories too short?

High crime is always a good think for politicians.

[ada]

Greetings.

Why would these "deadly, unstable" young men set fire to their own country?

because they've been f***d up in the head by the circumstances they've been exposed to.

Kind of defeats the point of making peace don't you think.

Yeah that's kind of the point I'm trying to make

[pianistimo]

war is ugly.  but, also - you have to remember that our country has been taunted for years with beheadings that are televised.  with people abducted (whole groups - families) and killed off one by one after days or months of torture (not a day).  some few find their way back - but it is FEW.

now, we have a whole region which is far more unstable that it was under saddam hussein, but yet - it had an underground instability for a long time.  as we slowly come to understand the region and it's various historical conflicts - we meet the modern age with a sort of mystified wonder.  of course, we can learn from each other.  but, warring with each other just makes us more and more deplorable when innocent civilians are harmed.

now, if saddam had allowed any of his soldiers to be in a 'tribunal' of ours for beheading innocent people (who sometimes were attempting to help iraq!) - that would have been a surprise. 

[zheer]

So a former US private has been indicted for breaking into a house in an Iraqi town, raping a 14 year old girl, killing her and her father, mother and six-year-old sister and setting fire to her body.

   We have to remember that there are good soldiers that help civilians and shoot criminals and bad soldiers that don't.
  Am  %100 sure that the execution of Saddam and the immediate withdrawl of both US and British troops will end this civil war.
   I personally believe that the US and The UK are indirectly accountable for the distruction of IRAQ since the day Saddam came into power some thirty years ago. Any terrorist attack on the UK or US is perfectly justified and called upon and it is time for war am sorry to say it it's written in the Koran its the words of God, one should fight wrongfull agressors. I did'nt think i would be the one to say it.
  Think of IRAQ as a large mirror each time you look at it its your own reflection of evil intention and planing.

[wishful thinker]

    Any terrorist attack on the UK or US is perfectly justified and called upon and it is time for war am sorry to say it it's written in the Koran its the words of God

Outrageous  says everything that we need to know about your religion.  Let's hope its not you that gets you legs blown off  when it happens eh?

[ahinton]

We have to remember that there are good soldiers that help civilians and shoot criminals and bad soldiers that don't.

That is indeed a universal truth.

I personally believe that the US and The UK are indirectly accountable for the distruction of IRAQ since the day Saddam came into power some thirty years ago.

This may well be at least partly true; some of the arms deals that took place during part of that time would tend to support that view.

Any terrorist attack on the UK or US is perfectly justified and called upon and it is time for war am sorry to say it it's written in the Koran its the words of God, one should fight wrongfull agressors. I did'nt think i would be the one to say it.

...and it's a great pity that you have been. This is out and out nonsense of the "two wrongs DO make a right" type. If such attacks were to take place, they might not be by Iraq in any case, so how would this support your contention? And what if US attacked UK? - would this be "justified" in your view? "Time for war"? By whose decree? As you will surely appreciate, I am no defender of the presence of US and UK military in Iraq, but your own stance is even more indefensible.

Think of IRAQ as a large mirror each time you look at it its your own reflection of evil intention and planing.

Whose? Mine and everyone else's? Really? Again, you strain credibility well past breaking point here.

Am %100 sure that the execution of Saddam and the immediate withdrawl of both US and British troops will end this civil war.

I am not. Saddam has alredy effectively been "executed" to the extent that he is no longer in charge or Iraq, having been irrevocably removed from that position. And US and British troops show no signs yet of a total withdrawal. Even if that withdrawal does indeed occur at some point, the havoc (to some degree of their own making) that they will leave behind will not help Iraq to mend itself and is unlikely to create a climate in which different factions within that country cease to be at war with one another. I think, therefore, that you are being hopelessly over-optimistic here. Instead of that, I wish that you were right - on this, if not some of the above...

There is, of course, no excuse whatsoever for actions of the kind to which "ada" draws attention in her opening salvo. As she also suggests, a substantial proportion of military personnel will indeed have had their heads messed up there by the all too protracted experience of trying (or not trying) to achieve the impossible. Of course they should get out - but they really should never have gone there in the first place. Saddam should have been overthrown by his own people; even if that had happened, the situation in Iraq in the ensuing years would have been intensely problematic, but not, I suspect, anything like as bad as it is now.

Best,

Alistair

[pianolist]

It is so obvious from all this that we are almost identical to the chimps, as I've said elsewhere. "Them" and "us", torture, picking off the weakest, rape, murder. Some people assume that the only significant difference between us is our propensity for religion, but even there, it wouldn't surprise me if the chimps had some rudimentary superstitions.

I doubt Bush himself has the intellect to understand what is really happening, and I assume that his administration is actually run by the Vice-President and the Secretaries of State. They will have realised, as Margaret Thatcher did with the Falklands, that a war is a tremendous way of staying in power. If you can't increase your electorate's prosperity significantly, and you can't in a relatively static economy, then fear and nervous patriotism are your two best weapons.

Their problem is that their perception of war did not include defeat, and so they have absolutely no idea what to do, other than to keep plugging the fear element in order to stay in power. To that end, they desperately need Bin Laden to stay alive but untraceable, because he is the most wonderful bogeyman. Bin Laden needs Bush as well, which is why he seems to like releasing videos just before US elections, so that the rednecks will stay in power.

Blair ought to have had the brains to have seen the potential disaster, but he was too busy strutting around the international stage to notice, and he is far too proud and ambitious ever to admit any failing whatsoever. I stopped supporting Labour on the day we went to war.

The US and the UK will finally have to pull out of Iraq, sooner rather than later, and the only way they will be able to do so is by partitioning the country. That will leave three countries, for the Kurds, the Shi'ites and the Sunnis, with the last two remaining in a state of constant belligerence, because the oil is in the south, with the Shi'ites, whereas the Sunnis got used to ruling the whole shooting match, and don't want to relinquish control.

In the end, you can't blame anyone. People are apes, and they make all the same mistakes all the time. It is simply in our blood to be belligerent and often stupid. Posters to this forum may well be wiser and less aggressive than most, but it is neither wisdom nor peacefulness that leads to power.

[zheer]

Outrageous  says everything that we need to know about your religion. 

  I have read the Koran and no am not a deeply religious man, infact i don't practice the relighion, but i remember clearly reading and this is the word of God not mine that a holy war is not a sin at time when one is a victim of wrongful invaders or agressors, it is time to stand and fight and die fighting.Obviously am not a military man either but if i were, US and the Uk would have been under heavy bombardment, since that is not possible events such as 9/11 will continue .
  I believe in God and the injustice thats is going on as a result of US and UK action and he who votes for such action is un-forgivable in the eyes of God, now as a Kurd we have seen many Kurdish people die under Saddam infact Sadamm had plans to Kill all kurds and had it not been for America he woud have,but enough is enough on both sides, pull out the troops or expect more terror.
   LOL if you are American or English dont approach me if you see me.

[ahinton]

It is so obvious from all this that we are almost identical to the chimps, as I've said elsewhere. "Them" and "us", torture, picking off the weakest, rape, murder. Some people assume that the only significant difference between us is our propensity for religion, but even there, it wouldn't surprise me if the chimps had some rudimentary superstitions.

I doubt Bush himself has the intellect to understand what is really happening, and I assume that his administration is actually run by the Vice-President and the Secretaries of State. They will have realised, as Margaret Thatcher did with the Falklands, that a war is a tremendous way of staying in power. If you can't increase your electorate's prosperity significantly, and you can't in a relatively static economy, then fear and nervous patriotism are your two best weapons.

Their problem is that their perception of war did not include defeat, and so they have absolutely no idea what to do, other than to keep plugging the fear element in order to stay in power. To that end, they desperately need Bin Laden to stay alive but untraceable, because he is the most wonderful bogeyman. Bin Laden needs Bush as well, which is why he seems to like releasing videos just before US elections, so that the rednecks will stay in power.

Blair ought to have had the brains to have seen the potential disaster, but he was too busy strutting around the international stage to notice, and he is far too proud and ambitious ever to admit any failing whatsoever. I stopped supporting Labour on the day we went to war.

The US and the UK will finally have to pull out of Iraq, sooner rather than later, and the only way they will be able to do so is by partitioning the country. That will leave three countries, for the Kurds, the Shi'ites and the Sunnis, with the last two remaining in a state of constant belligerence, because the oil is in the south, with the Shi'ites, whereas the Sunnis got used to ruling the whole shooting match, and don't want to relinquish control.

In the end, you can't blame anyone. People are apes, and they make all the same mistakes all the time. It is simply in our blood to be belligerent and often stupid. Posters to this forum may well be wiser and less aggressive than most, but it is neither wisdom nor peacefulness that leads to power.

On the very considerable strength of what you write here, it is self-evidently a great pity that you - or someone else who thinks pretty much as you do - isn't president of US or prime minister of UK (not, of course, that you yourself would wish to be either - the precedent of Paderewski notwithstanding). The only additional comment I feel inclined to make here is that if, after all the artistic developments, the religious and philosophical metamorphoses, the scientific advances, the social and economic changes and all the rest through which the human race has taken itself over the past n centuries, it has still falied in certain particulars to progress beyond the chimp level, there would appear to be no hope for it whatsoever; whilst I can see what prompts you to draw this analogy, it would surely be worse than any other conceivable indictment were it wholly to stand up to scrutiny and emerge unscathed...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

LOL if you are American or English dont approach me if you see me.

Glad you think its a laughing matter - and don't worry pal, I won't.   I rather hope that you don't actually exist. 

[pianolist]

How nicely put, Alistair!

I am in general rather downbeat about humanity. Of course, there are countless examples of what you or I, or the inhabitants of Piano Street, would regard as pinnacles of human achievement. In many ways, I could believe that humanity is trying to go through a process similar to the separation of the chimps and the bonobos, the latter being peaceable and gentle. But we live in a world where ease of communication renders such separations impossible. Force always wins, because it is easy to kill pacifists.

Mind you, I still hope to save the pianola for posterity, as my contribution to passing gentleness on to the next generation. Maybe it's just at the moment that the bullies are winning, but I have my doubts. I am genuinely pleased that you are an idealist, because in my innocence, that is what I think composers should be!

[ahinton]

  I have read the Koran and no am not a deeply religious man, infact i don't practice the relighion, but i remember clearly reading and this is the word of God not mine that a holy war is not a sin at time when one is a victim of wrongful invaders or agressors, it is time to stand and fight and die fighting.Obviously am not a military man either but if i were, US and the Uk would have been under heavy bombardment, since that is not possible events such as 9/11 will continue .

I am a scholar of neither the Qu'ran nor the Bible, but what I have noticed to my dismay and chagrin is the extent to which so many too many people allow themselves to be persuaded to interpret a series of texts written many centuries ago as though no social, scientific, artistic, economic or other changes have - or even should have - taken place since and without allowing at all for the kinds of metamorphoses of emphasis and connotation that come with continuous translation over long periods of time; language - and even the ways in which it is used - has changed beyond all recognition, just as have those other factors, over the period since the various parts of the Bible and the Qu'ran were written. In other words, my concern is about those people who seem determined, in the face of all persuasion otherwise, to interpret these texts literally and as though they were written in or close to our own time. The very notion that laws can never change is, frankly, not merely absurd but inhuman. In so saying, I am not for one moment suggesting that there is - or should be - no such thing as immutable logic and universal truth; I am instead suggesting that a lack of due balance of approach between those things that are by their very nature constant and those which by their very nature constantly change is most unhealthy and potentially destructive.

I believe in God and the injustice thats is going on as a result of US and UK action and he who votes for such action is un-forgivable in the eyes of God, now as a Kurd we have seen many Kurdish people die under Saddam infact Sadamm had plans to Kill all kurds and had it not been for America he woud have,but enough is enough on both sides, pull out the troops or expect more terror.

It is not for me to comment on or question your belief in God. It is for me to agree with you about the injustice that is being wrought in Iraq at the hands of US and UK action (although, apart from the examples that "ada" cites, I would be inclined to blame their governments rather than individual military personnel in the air and on the ground). I also believe that what you claim about Saddam's plans for the Kurds is very likely correct. It remains a tragedy for all Iraqis that Saddam was toppled only by outside interference rather than by internal action; in UK, Margaret Thatcher was even toppled by her own political party. "Enough" is more than enough on all sides. Yes, the foreign troops should indeed pull out, preferably by last week. Even if this were to occur, however, there would still be those - and not only in Iraq - who would be baying for the blood of the US and UK and advocating terrorist attacks against those nations; in fact, I even think that this would still be the case had US and UK not sent troops to Iraq at all.

LOL if you are American or English dont approach me if you see me.

Well, I'm neither; I am a Scotsman. Much as your advocacy of future terrorist attacks - even if only by suggestion - disgusts me as it surely would any decent human being, I am happy to accept that quite abit of the remainder of what you write contains good sense. In view of this - and bearing in mind that I am Scots rather than "American or English" - I would have no obvious problem in principle in approaching you if I did see you (and knew who you were), even if you were armed (which I nevertheless hope you would not be).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Force always wins, because it is easy to kill pacifists.

And as long as it continues to do so, regardless of (a) whether there is any point whatsoever in its use or (b) whether it is used appropriately, we'll be making no progress as a race - humans, that is..

Maybe it's just at the moment that the bullies are winning, but I have my doubts. I am genuinely pleased that you are an idealist, because in my innocence, that is what I think composers should be!

I'm not sure about that first bit (who can be?!). I'm not quite the idealist that you seem to think - or at least not in the complete sense which you imply. The problem I find is that it is all too easy to assume that just because there remain - even six decades after the close of WWII - ample instances of man's gross inhumanity to man all over the place, all humans are therefore tarred with the same brush (and I nearly left the "r" out of that last word!) or at the very least are saddled with - and are congenitally incapable of ridding themselves of - the same belligerent instincts. This notion, however, simply doesn't stand up to inspection, otherwise you and I and other like-minded folk would be joining one herd or another and supporting either US and UK terrorism in Iraq and elsewhere or terrorist acts in the name of "Islam" being visited upon innocent US and UK citizens. I have no idea to what extent or within what kind of time frame the increasingly sagging support in US and UK for their respective military representations in Iraq will bring about either the demise of those administrations or the withdrawal of those military personnel or both but, as even "zheer" writes, it can only be a matter of time - albeit far too much time...

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

pal,

  Americano, yup.

[wishful thinker]

No, non sono americano. Io sono inglese.   

[pianistimo]

zheer, we're agreed on pulling out.  most americans really want it to happen asap.  that is what i understand from most people i talk to.  and, hopefully, the iraqi government will be stable enough to withstand any sorts of sudden terror to the elected regime that is in place.  unless, of course, they would be willing to split the power. 

agreed that absolute power can be rather scary for constituents.  soon, i don't think it will be one country against another - but a sort of world terrorism which plots to unify the world so we can all have security forces from the UN in our countries to protect us.  what goes around, comes around.  so far, US and Britain don't bite into the 'one world system' because they feel that too many liberties will be taken away.  of course, what may push us over the edge is the 'mark.'  the euro dollar and the power of financial forces beyond our means.  we have already given up much freedom and liberty - and think we still have it.  do you realize we are watched from almost every corner of life.  from computers, to street, store surveillance, much information on each one of us is gathered and who knows where it goes.  and the latest info from readers digest was on the insecurity of our medical records now.  what's next?

i really have no idea how the next few years will play out.  but, if europe gains speed and momentum - i think that previous roman empires who sought world dominion - won't be out of the range of character for a few deranged people.  and, of course, they have their banking system in place.

[mephisto]

"If someone occupies you, then you are allowed to make resistance." Am I right or wrong?

[pianistimo]

dirty bombs are no fun either.  i really don't know how much or little saddam had in place because he liked to move everything around.  of course, defending his own country was an excuse - but a poor one if he was murdering his own people.  the amount of cash hidden and extravagance in his own palaces as compared to the average iraqi was quite an indication of his selfish nature.

considering everything, though, i would have preferred to see the palaces, museums, and civilian areas and cities untouched.  but, who can make peace?  only God.  he is the creator of all of us and originally made us all from the same dust.  also, if iraq has a different form of government than democracy (possibly because of social customs and religious necessity for a country to be unified within the arabic world) then i don't think we can just 'ride into town' and wave a magic wand.  they probably have reasons for their customs that we cannot appreciate.  just as they do not want to be americanized - we might have a hard time accepting more structure and religious sentiment to life. 

[cziffra]

     LOL if you are American or English dont approach me if you see me.

dont worry, a nice 50 cal bullet from a few hundred meters away is all the interaction I'll need with a piece of sh*t like you.

[zheer]

dont worry, a nice 50 cal bullet from a few hundred meters away is all the interaction I'll need with a piece of *** like you.

  You know the deputy priem minster of IRAQ is a close friend of our family, the x priem minister new my mother at med school. To be honest threats like that are taken seriously.

[ahinton]

  You know the deputy priem minster of IRAQ is a close friend of our family, the x priem minister new my mother at med school. To be honest threats like that are taken seriously.

Then please try to do you best to ensure that you are taken seriously, too - and, more importantly, that you deserve to be so. As I have already indicated, among the utterly crass and dangerous rubbish that you have written, there is also no shortage of good sense. Please try to remember which is which. Please then bear in mind that the sabre-rattling noises of the American and British governments are as contemptible - and destructive for all concerned - as are your own when you express them as you have done.

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

- and destructive for all concerned - as are your own when you express them as you have done.

Best,

Alistair

   Yes i know ,dont get me started on the number of people i know who have been shot and killed for being out-spoken. Anyway am leaving to Bulgaria eventually,to start a new life, no politics and what have you. Sorry if i have angred you ahinton.

[ahinton]

   Yes i know ,dont get me started on the number of people i know who have been shot and killed for being out-spoken. Anyway am leaving to Bulgaria eventually,to start a new life, no politics and what have you. Sorry if i have angred you ahinton.

You have not "angered" me; had you done so, my comments would not have been worth any more than those of the US and UK governments, had either fielded representatives that posted here. The future terrorist threats that you made are as mindless as some of your other comments are constructive; please just bear that in mind. Do also bear in mind that Bulgaria is a country whose once-Soviet aura has been supplanted by western European - and most especially British - capitalist property speculation that has already caused certain property prices to skyrocket and, unless there is a radical change very soon (which there won't be, because even if the Brits back out, they'll already have given the green light of example to every other speculative organisation to follow suit), the locals will once again be unable to buy anything. Not for nothing is there a joke over here that property prices even in Baghdad and Kabul will rise as a direct consequence of British capitalist speculation - and this is not even something for which you can blame the current British government that has military personnel in those countries - it is a far more insidious threat than any British government of any political persuasion could ever hope to make stick at any time - it's the unstoppable steamroller of capitalism. Go make a fortune out a Bulgarian propety; that's what most other immigrants to that country are now doing...

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

So a former US private has been indicted for breaking into a house in an Iraqi town, raping a 14 year old girl, killing her and her father, mother and six-year-old sister and setting fire to her body.

A disgusting incident - the soldier responsible should spend the rest of his life in a cage.

He was just one of five and I'm sure it doesn't end there. Remember the delightful Lindy England and her mates in Abu Graib.

Degrading people is much different from rape and murder.

I'm sure there is a lot of whack sh*t that goes down that does not get reported, but with a 260,000+ coalition force, a few murders here and there is to be expected.  The incredible stress of living prolonged periods in combat situation can make even the strongest psychologically break down and do terrible things. 

The fact that you insinuate that US troops are immoral or out of control based on such reports is preposterous.

I know the US refuses to pull out of Iraq (for fear of causing chaos, as opposed to the law and order that reigns at the moment) but has the administration given any consideration to what's going to happen when these damaged, deadly and unstable young men are let loose and given access to guns back in their own country? What about the lessons of Vietnam? Or are memories too short? What are you going to do? Pray?

The administration currently believes that the cost of supporting consensual government and supporting stability in Iraq is better than the alternative - the 100% assurance that the country will fall to chaos. I'm inclined to agree with them.

And yeah, Zheer is a completely ignorant individual who we ought to just ignore.

[ahinton]

The administration currently believes that the cost of supporting consensual government and supporting stability in Iraq is better than the alternative - the 100% assurance that the country will fall to chaos. I'm inclined to agree with them.

That's very smugly convenient for it, is it not? Pitch into a Middle Eastern country over which you have no legal jurisdiction, without formal invitation, do your darnedest and then make a self-satisfied comment like that? Of course it's likely that the country will indeed fall into chaos (or rather into even greater chaos than that in which it now finds itself) when the US and UK troops leave, but then a substantial proportion of the reason for that is down to the now long-term uninvited presence of those troops; the country would almost certainly have descended into chaos in any case following the deposition of Saddam even if his own countryfolk had achieved this without any external interference, but the sheer extent and longevity of that chaos would, I believe, have been quite different under such circumstances.

And yeah, Zheer is a completely ignorant individual who we ought to just ignore.

Not "completely"; it's just that certain of his pronouncements are more than enough to make some people think so with good reason...

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

That's very smugly convenient for it, is it not? Pitch into a Middle Eastern country over which you have no legal jurisdiction, without formal invitation, do your darnedest and then make a self-satisfied comment like that?

Is this what you had in mind?

Dear United States,

Saddam blows. Hardcore. Please help depose him.  This is both formal invitation and legal jurisdiction to kick ass. Please consider taking advantage of it.

Love,

Iraq



Seriously, I'm not sure how you think the world operates.

Of course it's likely that the country will indeed fall into chaos (or rather into even greater chaos than that in which it now finds itself) when the US and UK troops leave

True, there is a chance, but for the sake of the Iraqi people and the security of the region, let's hope this is not the case.

but then a substantial proportion of the reason for that is down to the now long-term uninvited presence of those troops; the country would almost certainly have descended into chaos in any case following the deposition of Saddam even if his own countryfolk had achieved this without any external interference, but the sheer extent and longevity of that chaos would, I believe, have been quite different under such circumstances.
Not "completely"; it's just that certain of his pronouncements are more than enough to make some people think so with good reason...

Best,

Alistair

Why not just say: "the US have f*cked up reconstruction efforts." Really, Iraq and the world are better off with Saddam deposed. This is pretty well inarguable, regardless of whether or not you supported the justifications for the war. The security situation is dismal today but the situation is not hopeless. Let's hope that things improve for the Iraqis.

[henrah]

Time travel into the past is not possible, therefore we cannot confirm that Iraq would be doing better at this point in time had it befalled Saddam by itself. For all you know it could have been forever sectioned into the different gangs and a constant gang war would ensue. However this cannot be confirmed either.

All we can really do is hope that Iraq's police and law enforcement are able to keep the gangs (of which I use that term loosely) at bay. Until they can do that, pulling out the troops would be a stupid idea.

Btw, what is stopping Iraq's own law enforcement from acting enough to control it's own country? Is it the sheer amount of 'terrorism' (again used loosely) that is occuring?

[zheer]

Not "completely"; it's just that certain of his pronouncements are more than enough to make some people think so with good reason...

Best,

Alistair

    Thanks Alistair, it's to easy just to call me a stupid idiot or an ignorant individual.

  Not too long ago i was speaking with my grand parents one of them is a well known historian and poet, anyway he was telling how as a child British war plains would bomb the city he was at in north kuristan and how the British divided Kurdistan into three and therefore gave power to the arabs to rule our lives. From my fathers side all my relatives were killed by the Arabs and not too long ago many kurdish villiages were gased by Saddam, i wont go into detail. He aslo told me how Saddam was personally recruited by the American to do the dirty job, they knew he was a real criminal like Abin laden.
    Why am i tell you this, well yes people like to tearn a blind eye and call others idiotic or ignorant, now this is just IRAQ, how about india , Africa and so on and on.

[ahinton]

Is this what you had in mind?

Dear United States,

Saddam blows. Hardcore. Please help depose him.  This is both formal invitation and legal jurisdiction to kick ass. Please consider taking advantage of it.

Love,

Iraq



Seriously, I'm not sure how you think the world operates.

Very funny, I'm sure, but I'm also sure that you know precisely what I meant, which was that US and UK decided to do their stuff in Iraq as a direct consequence of agendas created by themselves (including, but not limited to, the alleged terrorist threat of weapons of mass destruction that no one ever found) and not in response to a plea from Iraq for help.

Why not just say: "the US have f*cked up reconstruction efforts."

Simply because that is not the whole story, sadly; they've done rather worse than just that.

Really, Iraq and the world are better off with Saddam deposed. This is pretty well inarguable, regardless of whether or not you supported the justifications for the war.

Indeed so; of itself, however, this does not mean that it would not have been better for Iraq had he been deposed by his own people rather as (in admittedly a very different context) Margaret Thatcher was deposed by members of her own political party.

The security situation is dismal today but the situation is not hopeless. Let's hope that things improve for the Iraqis.

Fully agreed on both counts.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Thanks Alistair, it's to easy just to call me a stupid idiot or an ignorant individual.

It is, of course, your prerogative to read and comment on a carefully selected part of what I wrote rather than the whole of it; most of us would, I suspect, prefer that you didn't. I have made no such accusation and indeed went to some lengths to contrast the valuable points that you made with the one wholly unacceptable one.

Not too long ago i was speaking with my grand parents one of them is a well known historian and poet, anyway he was telling how as a child British war plains would bomb the city he was at in north kuristan and how the British divided Kurdistan into three and therefore gave power to the arabs to rule our lives. From my fathers side all my relatives were killed by the Arabs and not too long ago many kurdish villiages were gased by Saddam, i wont go into detail. He aslo told me how Saddam was personally recruited by the American to do the dirty job, they knew he was a real criminal like Abin laden.
    Why am i tell you this, well yes people like to tearn a blind eye and call others idiotic or ignorant, now this is just IRAQ, how about india , Africa and so on and on.

Let me ask you a question? Why do you imply as assumption that I choose to "turn a blind eye" to any of this? I would have thought that I'd already made it perfectly clear that I find most of the actions of both US and UK in Iraq indefensible, just as I found and still find that most of those of Saddam against his own people indefensible. I am very sorry to hear what you say about you own family. What some people choose to "turn a blind eye" to is that US did much to support Saddam's dastardly régime in its early days, whch makes their volte-face even more indefensible, it seems to me.

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

Indeed so; of itself, however, this does not mean that it would not have been better for Iraq had he been deposed by his own people rather as (in admittedly a very different context) Margaret Thatcher was deposed by members of her own political party.

The United States was actually sponsoring local assassination attempts against Saddam after the first Gulf War. They failed. Regime change required American military intervention. On that basis alone, the US and allies did a rather superb job in crushing Saddam in 3 weeks. Even if Iraqi elements had succeeded in deposing Saddam on their own, I think you can agree that it would NOT be better without the coalition there to lend a helping hand. I've been following this war closely and have been just as disappointed as people who oppose the war with the botched reconstruction efforts. But there's no way it would be better without the coalition.

A good example would be entropy. Lets say there are clothes in the dryer. The dryer stops. The clothes come out of the dryer, and they're unfolded (no surprise, entropy says things have a tendency to be less organized). Let's say that when the dryer stops, your little brother (who's the only one around at the time) decides to fold the laundry rather than just let the clothes remain unfolded. Your brother isn't especially good at folding laundry, but he gave it a good shot. It's admirable that he made things more organized than they would have been without his presence.

Reconstruction of a country is not perfect. Choices that have to be made are often a choice between bad and worse choices. 

[jakev2.0]

@Zheer: Why I believe you are ignorant:

You live a relatively good life in the United Kingdom, but profess to absolutely despise your country. It offers you a standard of living appreciably higher than in any Middle-Eastern country. The United Kingdom has consensual government, free speech, and gender equality. By comparison, all Arab countries plus Iran live in the dark ages. You log onto a message board (whose server is located in Dallas, Texas) and whine about how much you hate the United States and how the world would be better off it was destroyed. You should thank British law that you are allowed to even say such foolish things. If you tried it in Syria, you'd probably end up dead or in some dark dungeon in Damascus* .

*wikid alliteration, no?   

It's healthy to disagree with the UK foreign policy. Do that until you are blue in the face. But do you realize that regardless of what the US and UK did in Iraq before the Gulf War*, the result of the current war is that Kurds have security and autonomy such as they have not had in a long time? If one party is better off from this war in Iraq, it is the Kurds.

[ahinton]

The United States was actually sponsoring local assassination attempts against Saddam after the first Gulf War. They failed. Regime change required American military intervention. On that basis alone, the US and allies did a rather superb job in crushing Saddam in 3 weeks. Even if Iraqi elements had succeeded in deposing Saddam on their own, I think you can agree that it would NOT be better without the coalition there to lend a helping hand. I've been following this war closely and have been just as disappointed as people who oppose the war with the botched reconstruction efforts. But there's no way it would be better without the coalition.

I know that - what I was talking about was the early days of the Saddam régime, when it was doing almost the opposite.

I am not suggesting that everything that every US and British soldier now does in Iraq is bad; thee is ample evidence of constructive endeavours on the part of some military personnel, just as there is evidence of the kind of incident to which "ada" drew attention when initiating this thread. The war itself, however, was "fought" on the false premises of the risk of terrorist threats and the presence and possible use against those countries of weapons of mass destruction supposedly located in Iraq; getting rid of Saddam, whilst clearly the desire of many Iraqis, was rather more of a side issue for the invading countries, whose principal agendas were as above.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

@Zheer: Why I believe you are ignorant:

You live a relatively good life in the United Kingdom, but profess to absolutely despise your country. It offers you a standard of living appreciably higher than in any Middle-Eastern country. The United Kingdom has consensual government, free speech, and gender equality. By comparison, all Arab countries plus Iran live in the dark ages. You log onto a message board (whose server is located in Dallas, Texas) and whine about how much you hate the United States and how the world would be better off it was destroyed. You should thank British law that you are allowed to even say such foolish things. If you tried it in Syria, you'd probably end up dead or in some dark dungeon in Damascus* .

*wikid alliteration, no?   

It's healthy to disagree with the UK foreign policy. Do that until you are blue in the face. But do you realize that regardless of what the US and UK did in Iraq before the Gulf War*, the result of the current war is that Kurds have security and autonomy such as they have not had in a long time? If one party is better off from this war in Iraq, it is the Kurds.

I agree with your first paragraph, but I have grave reservations about some of your second. I do not disagree with recent and current UK policy on Iraq just because the extent to which we still retain freedom of speech here allows me to do so. I do not profess to be an expert on this subject, but I do know a few Kurds myself and, whilst they are all, not unnaturally, profoundly relieved that Saddam and his revolting régime is now a thing of the past, not one of them feels positive about the future and all are fearful of the eventual consequences of almost all of the actions of US and UK other than those very few more recent ones that are demonstrably dedicated solely to genuine reconstructive efforts. One has even said to me that she hopes that Turkey (whose Kurdish population is not large but apparently steadily growing) will eventually be granted membership of the EU, because then there might be some chance for an independent Kurdistan to do so in the future; I asked if an independent Kurdistan is what she wanted and she replied that, whilst not her immediate preference, she would support moves towards it were this the only sure way to bring peace to the area and hopes for some kind of worthwhile future.

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

@Zheer: Why I believe you are ignorant:

You live a relatively good life in the United Kingdom, but profess to absolutely despise your country.

    BTW you would never call my ignorant face to face your legs would collapse. Anyway are you American or something  cuz its understandable that you would think such things, sadly this will result in American soliders getting killed, most of them are ordinary and possibly good people from poor background recruited toald a load of Bull**ight about saving IRAQ and th world from weapons that saddam might or might not have. Funny how the man behind this war had to depart, hmmmmmmmm i guess he is'nt doing a good job.
    Hay doooooooooooood or what ever you guys call each other, party on cuz you guys are like so cool man, you guys are like wow well ahead of the rest of the world , the rulers of the world man,hahahahahah, these stupid people dont know what they are talking about go sort them hahahahaha.   

    Ciao.

[prometheus]

The Kurds had automony under Saddam after 1991 as well, I think.

I think that both Zheer and Jake are missing their points.

[zheer]

The Kurds had automony under Saddam after 1991 as well, I think.

  Yup, infact many Arabs now live in Kurdistan, since it's a lot safer and nicer . I think they should be helped and welcome to live with Kurds . However apparently many Arabs are homeless.

[thalbergmad]

comments removed on reflection

[zheer]

To help rebuild Iraq, we should start deporting on a massive scale to help repopulate the Country.

  Repopulate what the F**ck does that mean, am not sure i like the word deporting, but a coward like you Thalb would say something as Chicken Sh**ht as that.

   Actually thalb why dont you join the BNP, you even look like them.

[thalbergmad]

  Repopulate what the F**ck does that mean, am not sure i like the word deporting, but a coward like you Thalb would say something as Chicken Sh**ht as that.

   Actually thalb why dont you join the BNP, you even look like them.

You lose credibilty when you launch personal attacks like that.

However, i admit my comments were stupid and were made in the heat of the moment being angered by your wish for the UK to be under bombardment.

I therefore take this opportunity to publicly apologise to you for any offence my comments caused.

I have removed my post.

Thal

Thal

[zheer]

However, i admit my comments were stupid and were made in the heat of the moment being angered by your wish for the UK to be under bombardment.

 Ok so imagin what its like for those who did actually live through UK and US bombardment ect ect, get it, can you see the connection. 

[thalbergmad]

Ok so imagin what its like for those who did actually live through UK and US bombardment ect ect, get it, can you see the connection. 

Indeed, but do you think that killing more innocent people is the answer?

I would have hoped that my apology would have prompted one from you, but it appears i have made a misjudgement.

Thal

[zheer]

I would have hoped that my apology would have prompted one from you, but it appears i have made a misjudgement.

Thal

 Well since you were not in the right frame of mind, i apologiez for beeing rude to you.

[thalbergmad]

Well since you were not in the right frame of mind, i apologiez for beeing rude to you.

Thank you

[mycrabface]

I think the US would l-o-v-e to go to war with anyone, because we all know the policy of appeasement doesn't work, and, well, because America is supposed to be a powerful country, America must prove it. Furthermore, there's oil in the middle-east. Isn't it worth fighting for? To control oil is to control the world.