USA Midterms: Democrats in da House, pregnant cat!

[phil13]

Woo-hoo! Senate, here we come!

Discuss!

Phil

[prometheus]

Makes no real difference. The democrats are republicans also.

Pro-war, pro-big business.


Only difference is 'moral issues'. That's what the election was about. Gay rights and stem cell research.

Well done USA.

[phil13]

Actually, the election was supposedly more about corruption and the war in Iraq. My hope is that if we push the Dems to do it, they can stop this hellhole of a war- if we don't push them, they will just sit back and let things happen the way they do, like they did when the war was first begun. But at least having the Democrats in the House (and hopefully in the Senate, too) will give us the chance we need to slow down Bush's train wreck of a presidency.

Phil

[txmuslguy]

Makes a BIG difference prometheus.  It's called "oversight", which has been lacking these past 6 years.  I agree the two parties look almost similar and some of it comes down to a split in  "moral" issues, but the run away, rubber stamp "anything-you-want" Mr. Prez Congress is overwith!   Think back to that "detainee bill" that was passed the last day  the 109th congress was in session.  Hidden deep within that bill was a get out of jail free card for Bush and his cronies, but much more importantly Habeous Corpus, almost 850 yrs of law upon which our Bill of Rights is based, was wiped out by the stroke of a pen, all because of fear mongering.  Yep, this Imperial Presidency  >>NEEDED<< to be reigned in!  Hopefully Virginia and Montana Senate seats go to the Democrats, and we will then have real "balance of power".

[dnephi]

Demo's are stupid and they sell out lies claiming that they alone have the "truth." 

And morally stupid too.

And economically stupid...

And um...  more stupid . 

The end.

[prometheus]

Well, there is a big difference now that Bush will have to work hard to get something done. So there is a practical issue.

But the democrats were for the war in Iraq and they have never said they will leave Iraq or pull back. They only want to fire Rumsfelt and change tactics.

Corruption is not a ideological difference either.


Bush will not withdraw from Iraq. But whoever wins the elections in 2 years will.

[jpianoflorida]

everyone who is not in office always has the answer.....then when they get elected, it changes and they find out it's easy to sit back and say "you should do this or that", but when you actually have to make decisions it's not that easy!!  Who would want to be president? No matter what you do you are criticized...most of us have a hard enough time dealing with our own lives, imagine dealing with the entire world.  Everyone of us have a certain issue we care about more than others, and if we aren't getting what we want, we blame the president or congress or someone.

[jpianoflorida]

Demo's are stupid and they sell out lies claiming that they alone have the "truth." 

And morally stupid too.

And economically stupid...

And um...  more stupid . 

The end.

don't generalize!  I'm not on either side, but you still can't generalize about a group of people.

[phil13]

Demo's are stupid and they sell out lies claiming that they alone have the "truth." 

And morally stupid too.

And economically stupid...

And um...  more stupid . 

The end.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I personally think it's stupid that we haven't impeached Bush and fired all his associates for the corruption in his administration, but then that's me. 

Phil

[musik_man]

Makes no real difference. The democrats are republicans also.

Pro-war, pro-big business.


Only difference is 'moral issues'. That's what the election was about. Gay rights and stem cell research.

Well done USA.

Actually, most of the Democratic candidates were social conservatives.  People like Casey, Webb, and Ford.  The election was mostly about Iraq.

It looks like the Senate will come down to whether Webb or Allen wins Virginia.  I just checked CNN and with 99% of precincts reporting Webb is up by a small fraction of a percent.

[ada]

I'm not American but from what I can see that vote was very much about the direction in Iraq. I have been down on America for a long time because of its disasterous and dangerous foreign policy but this vote goes a little way in restoring my faith in the US people.

And Rumsfeld out! I hope history will remember him as he deserves to be remembered.

These developments don't hold all the answers or mean the Dems will be much better But it's shown that the US electorate is finally, finally acknowledging that policy under Bush has just been plain wrong.

Congratulations.

[musik_man]

I'm not American but from what I can see that vote was very much about the direction in Iraq. I have been down on America for a long time because of its disasterous and dangerous foreign policy but this vote goes a little way in restoring my faith in the US people.

And Rumsfeld out! I hope history will remember him as he deserves to be remembered.

These developments don't hold all the answers or mean the Dems will be much better But it's shown that the US electorate is finally, finally acknowledging that policy under Bush has just been plain wrong.

Congratulations.

Rumsfeld is being replaced by Dr. Robert Gates, former head of the CIA and current(and soon to be former) president of Texas A&M (Whoop!)

[instromp]

Demo's are stupid and they sell out lies claiming that they alone have the "truth." 

And morally stupid too.

And economically stupid...

And um...  more stupid . 

The end.

Thats kinda funny that you say Demo's are economically stupid. If i remember correctly when Clinton was President the economy was going very well and the US had a surplus in something, i know it had to deal with money though.And now that Bush ,a Republican,  is in office our debt has increased tremendously.This comes to mind that Demo's arent as liberal as everyone thinks they, Republicans can be just as bad.

[prometheus]

Actually, most of the Democratic candidates were social conservatives.  People like Casey, Webb, and Ford.  The election was mostly about Iraq.

Yes, in those cases there is no difference at all.

[prometheus]

These developments don't hold all the answers or mean the Dems will be much better But it's shown that the US electorate is finally, finally acknowledging that policy under Bush has just been plain wrong.

They aren't. A lot of these races are very close. And a president always loses this election in their second term.

In many states about half of the americans don't care about what the US army does. Even if they committed genocide all over the place they wouldn't care. As long as they can vote on moral issues it will be their only motive. Blocking science and limiting the rights of gay people and woman is more important to them.

[ahinton]

I'm not American but from what I can see that vote was very much about the direction in Iraq. I have been down on America for a long time because of its disasterous and dangerous foreign policy but this vote goes a little way in restoring my faith in the US people.

And Rumsfeld out! I hope history will remember him as he deserves to be remembered.

These developments don't hold all the answers or mean the Dems will be much better But it's shown that the US electorate is finally, finally acknowledging that policy under Bush has just been plain wrong.

Congratulations.

I do not disagree with a word of this, but I fear that the damage done in Iraq (and elsewhere to a lesser extent) not only by the Bush-led US government but by our own Lair-led one in UK will be extremely hard to repair and will take an immense amount of time - in fact, i have no idea how it could be repaired, especially by people from those natuons, even though I have no doubt that thee are sincere and genuine US and UK people trying hard to undertake reconstructive work in Iraq in particular at present. There is, nevertheless, an obvious irony in a situation wherein certain military personnel attempt to make reparations in a state which its own governmental diktats has damaged in the first place. Saddam unquestionably had to go - but not by means of uninvited and unwarranted interference from outside the Middle East. I expect that the UK government will soon fall, too - although here there is neither credible government nor credible opposition, so I suspect that the next UK general election may well leave no one in any real "power".

Governments try to do far too much. As long as they do, we'll all be in trouble, not just the Americans suffering under the "war against terror" waged by their government against anyone who happens to appear to get in what that government smugly purports to think is its way...

Best,

Alistair

[bachfan87]

Yeah, I don't think it really makes a difference. Voting in America is like choosing between the lesser of two evils anyways.

[jre58591]

woo-hoo! 4 more years with ahhhhhhnold.

[musik_man]

In many states about half of the americans don't care about what the US army does. Even if they committed genocide all over the place they wouldn't care. As long as they can vote on moral issues it will be their only motive. Blocking science and limiting the rights of gay people and woman is more important to them.

 

I once read an essay whose thesis was this.  Americans, like the stereotype says, are generally ignorant of the rest of the world.  The rest of the world tends to be ignorant of America.  The difference is that the rest of the world thinks it isn't ignorant.

[prometheus]

You live in the US, don't you?

Shouldn't you know better?


Even here people don't care what our troops in Afghanistan are doing. If they bomb a city with civilians, well that's an accident. We are trying to help out.
No, more important is their wallet.

[musik_man]

You live in the US, don't you?

Shouldn't you know better?


Even here people don't care what our troops in Afghanistan are doing. If they bomb a city with civilians, well that's an accident. We are trying to help out.
No, more important is their wallet.

I live in the US so I do know better.  In fact I'm one of that 'half' you talk about(religious conservatives,) and I and everyone I know would care if the US started committing genocide. 

[prometheus]

But they would still vote for Bush if otherwise they would have to vote pro-gay and woman rights.

They do this right now. No matter how many people die in Iraq, they feel 'moral issues' are more important.

There is going to be a rapture within 20 years anyway, in their eyes, what does it matter?

[phil13]

Boo-yah!

Dems now control the House AND the Senate!

Did any of you see Bush in those press conferences? He is HATIN' this! He looks like a deer paralyzed by oncoming headlights. 

Phil

[ada]

Bush is reaping what he's sowed.

Like many people with a history of substance abuse and religious conversion he sees the world in black in white, and his dangerous combination of simplicity and arrogance has plunged the world into insecurity, ingnited that hatred of jihadist extremists around the globe and betrayed American values.

He's opened a pandora's box that can't be shut again, and the world will have to deal with its consequences.

This man must be stopped before he repeats it all with Iran.

IMHO he is without doubt the worst president the US and the world has ever had the misfortune to be saddled with.

This has been a no-confidence vote in this joke of a politician and this travesty of a human being. It isn't momentous because of who the Americans have voted for, but who they've voted against.

[ramseytheii]

Thats kinda funny that you say Demo's are economically stupid. If i remember correctly when Clinton was President the economy was going very well and the US had a surplus in something, i know it had to deal with money though.And now that Bush ,a Republican,  is in office our debt has increased tremendously.This comes to mind that Demo's arent as liberal as everyone thinks they, Republicans can be just as bad.

This is so true!  These stereotypes of both parties are so fossilized, that nobody can even see past them.  It is actually the Republicans that are expanding the government tenfold right now, and it is the Republicans who were fiscally irresponsible, both in the 80's and now, escalating the deficit to the trillions.  But they are the "small government" people, also I remember they are not into "nation-building?" 
The hypocrisy of the Republican party knows no bounds.  Witness the representative on the committee to stop internet predators, being an itnernet predator himself; the preacher in the midwest dabbling in politics to promote a gay marriage ban, himself being gay.  The Democrats are the cowards, but actually how many people in the Bush administration fought in Vietnam?  And we were supposed to crucify Clinton for this same thing only 8 years before?  The hypocrisy knows no end.  It would be humorous if this hypocrisy hasn't suppressed a large amount of American ppopulation, and murdered so many abroad.

Walter Ramsey

[pianowolfi]

Bush is reaping what he's sowed.

Like many people with a history of substance abuse and religious conversion he sees the world in black in white, and his dangerous combination of simplicity and arrogance has plunged the world into insecurity, ingnited that hatred of jihadist extremists around the globe and betrayed American values.

He's opened a pandora's box that can't be shut again, and the world will have to deal with its consequences.

This man must be stopped before he repeats it all with Iran.

IMHO he is without doubt the worst president the US and the world has ever had the misfortune to be saddled with.

This has been a no-confidence vote in this joke of a politician and this travesty of a human being. It isn't momentous because of who the Americans have voted for, but who they've voted against.

I think unfortunately it is not Bush alone. The clique behind him won't give up that easily.

[jolly]

Bush is reaping what he's sowed.

Like many people with a history of substance abuse and religious conversion he sees the world in black in white, and his dangerous combination of simplicity and arrogance has plunged the world into insecurity, ingnited that hatred of jihadist extremists around the globe and betrayed American values.

He's opened a pandora's box that can't be shut again, and the world will have to deal with its consequences.

This man must be stopped before he repeats it all with Iran.

IMHO he is without doubt the worst president the US and the world has ever had the misfortune to be saddled with.

This has been a no-confidence vote in this joke of a politician and this travesty of a human being. It isn't momentous because of who the Americans have voted for, but who they've voted against.

How many holes in this one? A bunch, whcih is generally true with ignorant broad brush strokes..

1. Simplicity does not a bad President make. Washington was rather simple in his views. So was Reagan. One has his face on Mt Rushmore, the other will likely be there, one day.

In complex issues, there is quite a bit to be said for tha man who can cut through the pseudo-intellectual bullcarp, and reduce the complex to the understandable.

2. There is no opening of Pandora's Box. The Middle East was a mess before Iraq, and it will likely be a mess if America fails to turn Iraq around. If America succeeds, however, it A) keeps the Turks from invading Northern Iraq, B)destabilizes Iran, C) keeps Syria in check, and D) may bring a bit more stability to the whole region. All of the aforementioned are noble goals, and worthy of consideration.

3. He's not even close to the worst. That's just hyperbole, Opinionated hyperbole, to boot.

4. Out of a nation of 300,000,000, both houses of Congress were decided by a little over 73,000 votes. And if you are talking the Senate, you are talking less than 2000 votes. This is no mandate, no matter what MoveOn may say. This was a close election, an election the Republicans lost, not one the Dems won.

5. By all accounts, there are now 40 Blue Dogs in the House. These guys are social conservatives, even if they are Dems. Don't look for a Gay Pride day in the House Chambers anytime soon.

6. Speaking of Gay Pride...So far, in 27 out of 28 states, gay marriage has been voted down. In Arizona, they are still counting the ballots, so it is concievable that it could be 28 for 28. Margin of victory usually hovers in the 60 percentile range. There ain't that many Republicans to ensure those kinds of victories. Do not make the mistake that social conservatism is only the realm of the Republicans.

7. Lastly, the Dems have no plan for getting out of Iraq. It's Powell's Pottery Barn analogy, and they know we stay until we fix it.

[ada]

Jolly good then. I won't argue the toss with a Bush supporter.

4. Out of a nation of 300,000,000, both houses of Congress were decided by a little over 73,000 votes.

But I will comment on this shocking figure.

Do you mean that out of 300,000,000 people only 73,000 voted? If that is the case, You Americans should be ashamed of yourselves for pretending to be a democracy.

My country has many faults, not the least being the fact that it is the second biggest US lackey in the world and has a PM that has done everything but disappear up George Bush's fundament,  but every citizen is required by law to vote, and we do. And that's the way it should be.

[prometheus]

Of course not, its vote difference.


Howard isn't a really 'good guy' either.

[musik_man]

I think about 55 million voted.  That's about half of the number that voted in 2004(if you're surprised, don't be.  Voter turnout is always higher in presidential races.)

[phil13]

...

3. He's not even close to the worst. That's just hyperbole, Opinionated hyperbole, to boot.

If he's not the worst, then who is?

Think about the long list of terrible things his administration has done over the past 6 years, either downright illegal in some cases, negligent in others, or changing laws around so he can poke his arse into everyone's business. Think about the rights violations of the Patriot Act, of the Terrorist Information Awareness act, which allows Feds to go into your house, search through your stuff, and then...never tell you they've been there. Think about the domestic wiretapping scandal, the botched efforts when Katrina ravaged the Gulf Coast, the tax cuts making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Think about the war in Iraq- first of all, we had absolutely NO reason to invade Iraq, except to remove a dictator which the US propped up. Think about the lies piled upon more lies about why we went there in the first place- WMDs (eventually we did find that there were some, but they were ones WE gave them), Bio-weapons (there were none), Saddam is in cahoots with Al-Qaeda (they are in Iraq now, but not when this was said), there to free the people of Iraq (yeah, hundreds of bombings yearly and hundreds of thousands of troops really pave the way to freedom and democracy, don't it?) and then topping it off by saying "We never lied to you, and are not lying now to cover up said non-existent lies." what? And now we are in a war that was never declared, never proved necessary, and has so far killed thousands of U.S. soldiers and possibly half a million Iraqi civilians, and there's still more to come.

Bill Clinton almost got impeached for lying about sex. This is opinionated, but compare for yourself the one lie against what I just typed. Bush and his cronies should be impeached, arrested for treason, and imprisoned.

Phil

EDIT: Completely spaced that whole thing about him fixing the close presidential elections in 2000 and 2004. There are probably a whole bunch of other illegal activities that I also forgot.

[jolly]

If he's not the worst, then who is?

Think about the long list of terrible things his administration has done over the past 6 years, either downright illegal in some cases, negligent in others, or changing laws around so he can poke his arse into everyone's business. Think about the rights violations of the Patriot Act, of the Terrorist Information Awareness act, which allows Feds to go into your house, search through your stuff, and then...never tell you they've been there. Think about the domestic wiretapping scandal, the botched efforts when Katrina ravaged the Gulf Coast, the tax cuts making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Think about the war in Iraq- first of all, we had absolutely NO reason to invade Iraq, except to remove a dictator which the US propped up. Think about the lies piled upon more lies about why we went there in the first place- WMDs (eventually we did find that there were some, but they were ones WE gave them), Bio-weapons (there were none), Saddam is in cahoots with Al-Qaeda (they are in Iraq now, but not when this was said), there to free the people of Iraq (yeah, hundreds of bombings yearly and hundreds of thousands of troops really pave the way to freedom and democracy, don't it?) and then topping it off by saying "We never lied to you, and are not lying now to cover up said non-existent lies." what? And now we are in a war that was never declared, never proved necessary, and has so far killed thousands of U.S. soldiers and possibly half a million Iraqi civilians, and there's still more to come.

Bill Clinton almost got impeached for lying about sex. This is opinionated, but compare for yourself the one lie against what I just typed. Bush and his cronies should be impeached, arrested for treason, and imprisoned.

Phil

EDIT: Completely spaced that whole thing about him fixing the close presidential elections in 2000 and 2004. There are probably a whole bunch of other illegal activities that I also forgot.

Has the Patriot Act impacted the average citizen in any way? I know of none. I know of people who have screamed from the mountain tops about abuses, but I've yet to actually see this dreaded abuse. One would think with the multitudes of activists constantly trolling for another imaginary toe to be stepped upon, we would have heard something by now

The United States is currently involved in an asymmetric war with people who have no qualms about killing the innocent, using whatever means are most expediant. And less you think this war is a fairytale, the head of MI5 in Britain just this week said they knew of thirty, count'em, thirty current terror plots in Britain. Now. Today. Involving over 1000 known or suspected terrorists.

When faced with individual freedom vs survival of the Republic, the leadership of the United States has always chosen security. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and censored newspapers. Wilson helped pass the Sedition Act (which was declared constitutional by SCOTUS, BTW) and jailed people for inspiring treason in time of war. Roosevelt censored, lied and put thousands of Americans into internment camps.

And we're worried somebody is listening to your overseas phone call...

Katrina?

While you were watching it on TV, I was living through the aftermath, unloading medivac choppers and helping out in shelters. You have NO concept of the problems at the state/federal level. You simply cannot snap your fingers as President and declare martial law (which is what should have been done) if the governor of the state tells you "No". You have NO concept of the logistical problems that occur when you uproot 750,000 people overnight, and try to clothe, feed and house them. You're talking about problems on a Biblical scale. It matters not who is in the White House, FEMA cannot manage problems on that scale. It never has before, and it can't do it now.

And you forgot Rita, which followed on the heels of Katrina.

Do tax cuts make the rich richer, and the poor poorer? I don't think they do, do you have empiracal data? Do you know who pays the lion's share of taxes in the United States? Do you know where the cutoff for federal taxes is for a family of four? Have you ever considered that many of those tax cuts kept some middle income families from paying any tax at all?

Iraq? You do understand the geo-strategic importance of the Euphrates River Valley, don't you? You undertsand that Sadaam was financing terrorism on the West Bank just before we invaded Iraq? Do you know that Abu Nidal was being cared for in Iraqi hospitals and given sanctuary? You do know that every intelligence service in the West (plus Russia) was convinced Sadaam had WMD? You are aware that just last week, that conservative bastion The New York Times wrote that Hussein's nuclear program  could have easily been reconstituted and produce a bomb in approximately 18 months? Are you also aware of the rumors that much of Sadaam's WMD may have been shipped to Syria before the war?

You do know that both houses of Congress authorized Bush to go to war with Iraq, and that all is completely legal under the War Powers Act? (You can google up the bill #'s yourself, this is getting long enough.)

Clinton? Clinton didn't almost get impeached. Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives, and remained in the office of President by the Grace of God and a Senate that felt the crime did not rise to the level to be removed from office. Clinton was convicted of lying under oath. People go to jail for that, everyday. Things could have been worse for Billy Jeff.

Lastly, the elections of 2000 and 2004 were won by George W. Bush. If you don't believe it, look in the history books. There has been no proven fraud, vote tampering, etc...nothing more than the minor stuff which occurs during any election - and that minor stuff was done in isolated precincts by both sides. If you want to read about massive voter fraud, read about how the mob fixed the election in 1960 Chicago, and put JFK in the White House.

 In the weeks leading up to the last election, I've heard every crackpot theory in the book about how the Diebold machines were rigged for a Republican victory. Now, I can't find a single soul who still subscribes to that silliness. Do have the good grace to admit defeat, as was evidenced by the Republicans in many of the close races they recently lost.

[ramseytheii]

I think everyone's facts and sources are different, but there are a few things in this I wanted to respond to, in a good spirit.

Has the Patriot Act impacted the average citizen in any way? I know of none. I know of people who have screamed from the mountain tops about abuses, but I've yet to actually see this dreaded abuse. One would think with the multitudes of activists constantly trolling for another imaginary toe to be stepped upon, we would have heard something by now

But are you a lawyer, and have you read the Patriot Act with a legal frame of mind?  Obviously people are seriously concerned about the abuses that can be enacted within its framework.  People are up in arms about this because of the potential for oppression, and the potential for the government to take unheard of amounts of power and secrecy.  This is completely justified! 
I mean, people are fighting potentials all the time.  Religious fundamentalists in Amerika are terrified that homosexual marriage will lead to pederasty and bestiality.  Has this happened in other countries that allow it?  No of course not - then why are they still concerned?  I don't mean to say they are right to be concerned about this, but that potential matters.

When faced with individual freedom vs survival of the Republic, the leadership of the United States has always chosen security. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and censored newspapers. Wilson helped pass the Sedition Act (which was declared constitutional by SCOTUS, BTW) and jailed people for inspiring treason in time of war. Roosevelt censored, lied and put thousands of Americans into internment camps.

Yes, but in these times, there was also vocal dissent.  So the dissent is in the same tradition, and just as valid.  And by the way, do you think newspapers will ever be censored again in the same way, that is to say, overtly?  Of course not, because the voices of dissent won.  So all those who dissent - never shut up.  Keep going, and the voice of the people will win.  This has been proven time and time again.

And we're worried somebody is listening to your overseas phone call...

Knowledge is power, and why should any government, especially one that claims to be by and for the people, have unlimited access to personal business?  The majority of people don't want this, and it won't happen.  When it was leaked that some phone companies provided records of every single call to the federal government, the country was outraged, the phone companies were sued, the government had to spin it and take a few steps back... if people want this, the government never would have apologized.  Ths is a government by and for the people, and this is the essence of Amerika.

Do tax cuts make the rich richer, and the poor poorer? I don't think they do, do you have empiracal data? Do you know who pays the lion's share of taxes in the United States? Do you know where the cutoff for federal taxes is for a family of four? Have you ever considered that many of those tax cuts kept some middle income families from paying any tax at all?

This sounds weak to me.  I've never met any family that pays 0 tax, unless they make so little they don't have to.  Anyways, the logics of economics are open to "robust" debate.

(1) Iraq? (2) You do understand the geo-strategic importance of the Euphrates River Valley, don't you? (3) You undertsand that Sadaam was financing terrorism on the West Bank just before we invaded Iraq? (4) Do you know that Abu Nidal was being cared for in Iraqi hospitals and given sanctuary? (5) You do know that every intelligence service in the West (plus Russia) was convinced Sadaam had WMD? (6) You are aware that just last week, that conservative bastion The New York Times wrote that Hussein's nuclear program  could have easily been reconstituted and produce a bomb in approximately 18 months? (7) Are you also aware of the rumors that much of Sadaam's WMD may have been shipped to Syria before the war?

You ask a lot of questions here, and I have numbered them for simplicity in answering!
(1) Yes?
(2) I don't know, do you?
(3) Who financed Saddam?
(4) Who is that?
(5) The intelligence reports that reach the President, and the work that goes into them, are apparently two vastly different things, which we have learned from recent documents released by the Freedom of Information Act.  It actually turns out a lot of intelligence discrediting WMDs in Iraq was suppressed, and more circumstantial evidence was "cherry-picked" as they say.
(6) If it is so easy to build a nuclear bomb, why doesn't Iran have one, and why doesn't North Korea have one that actually functions?  You can't suggest that Iraq is more technically savvy and has more resources than Iran without provoking serious fits of laughter.
(7) No, but I am aware of rumors that say the Bush Administration wanted to invade Iraq before September 11th.  Which is true?

I feel personally that if the Iraq invasion was justified because Iraq was "financing terrorism" (who doesn't do that these days?), and nursing a terrorist, then these things should have been mentioned as a reason for this war of choice.  But frankly, they were not.  We were told one thing, and when that turned out to be false, we were told something else.  And the standard has gotten lower and lower.  It leaves one wondering why other countries, who represent real threats that were only imagined in Iraq's case, are left to do their thing.  Well, one doesn't have to wonder that much!

As the current administration says, we must have a "robust debate" about these topics!

Walter Ramsey

[jolly]

You ask a lot of questions here, and I have numbered them for simplicity in answering!
(1) Yes?
(2) I don't know, do you?
(3) Who financed Saddam?
(4) Who is that?
(5) The intelligence reports that reach the President, and the work that goes into them, are apparently two vastly different things, which we have learned from recent documents released by the Freedom of Information Act.  It actually turns out a lot of intelligence discrediting WMDs in Iraq was suppressed, and more circumstantial evidence was "cherry-picked" as they say.
(6) If it is so easy to build a nuclear bomb, why doesn't Iran have one, and why doesn't North Korea have one that actually functions?  You can't suggest that Iraq is more technically savvy and has more resources than Iran without provoking serious fits of laughter.
(7) No, but I am aware of rumors that say the Bush Administration wanted to invade Iraq before September 11th.  Which is true?

1. At least we agree on the country.

2. Yes. Historically the Euphrates River Valley is rated in the top ten geographical areas of strategic importance. Along with the Fulda Gap, it creates an invasion pathway into or out  of Russia and the Middle East.  Armies have marched through the Euphrates River Valley since men swung bronze swords.

Control of the valley also lets you control much of the food of the region and quite a bit of natural resources, both in and out of Iraq.

3. At the time refererenced, Sadaam was involved up to his ears with selling oil for illegal monies through the UN Oil for Food program, while many of the Europeans were buying oil from him under the table, and many folks were getting illegally rich. The UN scandal was enormous in both scope and money...pity that most people payed no attention to it.

So I guess if one wanted to point fingers and follow the petrodollars, I'd start with the French. Of course, the terrorists killing Israelis at the time with suicide bombs were just glad to get the money from Sadaam.

4. At one time, the most wanted terrorist in the world. A name that should be recognized in the same breath with Osama bin Laden.

5. If you've ever been in the intelligence field (I have friends that retired from both the CIA and NSA) you take the best information you have, and you try to put forth the best threat analysis you can make. HUMINT is combined with electronic intelligence to produce the reults. The United States was lacking in HUMINT, but the Brits, the Mossaad and the  latter day Russian version of the KGB all thought Sadaam possessed WMD. While we most certainly could have been wrong, it is unlikely the intelligence services of 4 different nations could reach the same conclusions without there being a "there" there.

6. It's not that hard to build a nuclear bomb, you can google up the recipe on the web if you wish. Pakistan is probably not on your list of 1st world countries, yet they could wipe out a large part of India should they so choose. I would submit they were not technologically ahead of either the Iranians (who can't figure how to get a Tomcat off the ground, although they've had twenty years to do it. Remember the deal with the Shah just before Khomeini?) or the Iraqis.  The hard part in making a bomb is  obtaining sufficient amounts of quality fissionable material. You either have to have the technology and energy to produce it, or you must buy it on the black market. If you knew how much old Soviet stuff is unaccounted for, you wouldn't sleep well at night.

7.   I'd put more credence in the Syria rumor. The U.S. has plans to invade every country (or just about) on the face of the earth. They are gamed at the United States War College, and files are kept ready for use at the Pentagon. It's pretty simple...in case of war, break glass.


And a few other thoughts....

People can stay up in arms about government abuse of the law. The fact is that law never stopped a government bent on subjagating its people. The old U.S.S.R. had many good laws, the excution and interpretation was lacking. While one can argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, intent and enforcement technique count quite a bit more.

The question still remains - What average American citizen has been mistreated or harmed egregiously by the Patriot Act?

Taxes? Depending on region somewhat, but a family of four down here can make $34,000 and not pay a penny. In contrast, $95,000 is considered "rich" by most policymakers within the Democrat Party.

Knowledge? Knowledge is not power. The ability to action knowledge is power. There are many people who now much, and are complete, utterly powerless failures in life.

Yes, but in these times, there was also vocal dissent.  So the dissent is in the same tradition, and just as valid.  And by the way, do you think newspapers will ever be censored again in the same way, that is to say, overtly?  Of course not, because the voices of dissent won.  So all those who dissent - never shut up.  Keep going, and the voice of the people will win.  This has been proven time and time again.

The Whiskey Rebellion was put down in short order. During the American Civil War, Union Troops shot dissenters down in the street. There is a fine line between dissent and treason, and I'm not sure we know where it lies anymore.

I remember Hanoi Jane well.