Debussy plays Debussy

[iumonito]

I just got a recording of piano rolls recorded by Debussy.  I find the tempi implaussibly fast in most cases, particularly in Children's Corner, which clack just around 12 or 13 minutes (I play it in about 20 to 22).

Anyone out there familiar with these recordings?

I understand the speed of a piano roll can be adjusted without varying pitch.  I wonder if the people that produced this recording had the benefit of knowing how long each piece was supposed to last.

I nevertheless recommed the CD.  You can learn a lot from the type of rubato and how the chords are rolled or broken up.

[gruffalo]

wow, there are recordings of debussy? where can i get hold of these?


Gruff

[iumonito]

Now, it is not good to be lazy.

Here is a headstart:  https://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?style=music&HT_Search=xlabel&HT_Search_Info=Dal+Segno&cart=506

It is kind of bogus, IMO.  Not the whole CD is of Debussy rolls, and IMO they are not reproduced in a very artistic manner.

[pianohenry]

you can get the CD off amazon, i was considering buying it but didnt in the end for some reason... maybe still will

i imagined it would be more of a sort of.. "nice thing to have" recordings of the ACTUAL debussy playing, not so much a fantastically recorded cd i could listen to over and over again. a collectors item maybe

[ted]

My teacher, as an eight-year-old choirboy in Wales, did actually hear Debussy play a few times when he visited to train the choir. According to what my teacher told me, the only remarkable thing about it was that Debussy used to sit there, oblivious to  all, improvising around the same phrase for hours on end, driving everybody within earshot to distraction.  He also had a frightful temper, and used to swear at the choirboys, but he was probably quite ill by that time.

[pianolist]

Here is a headstart: https://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?style=music&HT_Search=xlabel&HT_Search_Info=Dal+Segno&cart=506

It is kind of bogus, IMO. Not the whole CD is of Debussy rolls, and IMO they are not reproduced in a very artistic manner.

The Dal Segno recordings were originally made on pianos owned by Denis Condon in Australia. Denis' pianos were very good at their time, though IMO not as good as the ones belonging to my friend, Denis Hall, in London, England. But whatever the case, the recordings were spoilt by the use of too much artificial resonance, and they did not sell very well worldwide, although rumour has it that they did very well in Japan. They were marketed as the Condon Collection.

About three years ago, the rights to the recordings were offered for licence in Europe, and someone in London acquired them. That is the background to the Dal Segno series. My friends and I advised the person concerned not to get involved, because the unfortunate acoustic means they do not do much credit to the reproducing piano overall, even though the underlying recordings may be OK. Our advice was not taken, though interestingly, the background illustration of a piano roll used on the inside of the CD tray card was taken without permission from an issue of our Pianola Journal.

There is a better CD of Debussy on roll on the Pierian label, available mainly in the US, and on Piano Street you will find Debussy playing Soirée dans Grenade, in the threads I started on The Editing of Piano Rolls:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,20511.msg238097.html#msg238097

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,20642.msg238092.html#msg238092

It's 2 am over here in London, and I'm not going to start on the fidelity of Welte-Mignon piano rolls now. It's a matter made far more complicated by the fact that there have been so many poorly adjusted reproducing pianos over the years, including some of those on LP and CD. I have been involved with player pianos for roughly 35 years, and it's only in the last three or four that I have discovered how wonderful the Welte recordings are. Buut you won't generally find that out on CDs.

I'll try to post something more detailed tomorrow.

[iumonito]

Thanks, Pianolist.  You are it.

I feel you can elaborate very precisely and eloquently on what I so clumsily just described as the reproduction of the rolls done in an unsophisticated way.

So here are my questions.  As far as you know, these rolls of Debussy playing Debussy...

Is there a way of really knowing at what speed Debussy played when they were recorded?

Is there a way of knowing the gradations of Debussy's pedaling?

Is there a way of knowing whether an overeager piano roll editor "corrected" Debussy's playing?

What are some thoughts about voicing the piano where the rolls are to be reproduced?  Obviously there is no way of knowing much about the voicing in the instrument where the rolls were recorded.

...and that is just the reproducing piano end of the question.  Then comes the whole detail you are highlighting about the recording of the sound, once you got sound coming out of the reproducing piano.

I shall check out the Pierian recording.  If you have it, would you mind listing the timings of the tracks played by Debussy.

[pianolist]

Well, Lumonito, you made life very easy by asking all the right questions!

This will be a long answer. Before I answer in detail, I should say that I am of the opinion that our grandfathers were every bit as clever as we were. That's obvious, really, but what I am getting at is that the technical and mechanical accuracy of which they were capable was very great, so that if the rolls were not accurate in any way, it was not because they were technically incompetent, but rather that people's minds did not work in the same ways as ours. Nowadays, for example, we expect music to be note perfect, and it often worries us if it isn't, but a hundred years ago, it was not so much of an issue. The accuracy of a performance was less important than its emotional content, and the exact timing was also not so critical. Just as the railways brought universal time into being, so the gramophone made people more concerned about exactitude in the timing of music.

There is no absolute way in which the accuracy in timing of any individual piano roll can be guaranteed, since the pitch does not vary with any alteration in speed. But there are common sense deductions that can be made. If the vast majority of rolls in a particular reproducing piano company's catalogue all sound about right, then it is a fair bet that the particular company didn't mess around with the speed. In fact, I don't think any of the major companies made much alteration to speeds. It's possible that the odd roll was accelerated to sound more impressive, but on the basis of my experience of many thousands of rolls, I would say that such editing was uncommon.

There is an issue that is sometimes raised about the acceleration of paper speeds. In any pneumatic reproducing piano, the paper is drawn through by a pneumatic motor which operates on the take-up spool. By the laws of geometry, as the paper builds up, the effective diameter of the spool increases, and with it the paper speed. In the case of the Duo-Art, the recordings were made with similar take-up spools, so the effect is cancelled out, and the performance does not therefore accelerate.

Some people think that Ampico recordings, such as those made by Rachmaninov, do accelerate, because the original patent for the Ampico recording mechanism shows a pinch-wheel rather than a spool, but a very close analysis of the way the Ampico master rolls were coded shows that compensation for such acceleration was indeed in the mind of the Ampico's inventor, Charles Fuller Stoddard. It is nevertheless possible that some early Ampico performances do accelerate, implying that the anti-acceleration feature was not always used.

The Welte-Mignon is a law unto itself. The Duo-Art and the Ampico both needed musical editors to create dynamic coding as they perceived the artist to have played, no doubt improved and corrected by the pianists themselves. As a result, even though the Duo-Art and Ampico can sound wonderfully faithful, one always has the impression of a portrait.  But if you listen to enough Welte rolls on a really first-class piano, you can hear countless tiny examples of realism in places where no editor would have thought to put them. The moments are too fleeting to be intentional, and they are gone before one suddenly realises their humanity.

It is the opinion of most people who know about the Welte that the dynamics were automatically recorded. Unfortunately, the first person to describe this process did not have the technical knowledge to report it properly, and his rather vague description was "improved" by others with no first-hand experience, in order to sell a sereies of LPs in the 1960s. As a result, a distorted and unnecessarily complicated theory of Welte dynamic recording has prevailed for nearly fifty years. In truth, the dynamic recording process was fairly simple, but very effective, and in my view it allowed the dynamic coding to be marked up on the roll as the pianist played.

There are relatively frequent wrong notes in Welte rolls. Some of these, such as the occasional phrase a semitone out, must be due to mistakes by the roll editor, who punched out perforations according to the markings in the roll. The Welte master rolls were pre-printed with a line for each note, and the recording machine marked up in the gaps in between lines, so that the recorded lines would still partially remain, after the rolls had been punched out by hand. It is easy to see how someone in a hurry might punch the note out on the adjacent line. But by and large the wrong notes are simply errors by the performer, and the fact that they make it as far as the issued rolls is a sure sign that the Welte editors did very little in the way of alteration or touching-up. I should say that this state of affairs applies only to the original Welte rolls from Germany; the later Welte-Licensee rolls from the US were manufactured in a different way, and were more heavily corrected.

Now, finally to answer your questions: Welte rolls, unlike those for other reproducing pianos, always run at the same speed. On the Welte organ recording device (they made rolls of organists too), which can be seen in the CD booklet for a recording of Mahler's rolls, it is clear that they used a mechanical governor to ensure that the roll ran at a constant speed. It is possible that they altered the speed, but it is on the whole unlikely, given the minimum of editing which they performed on the rolls.

One problem is that the Welte-Mignon used a large take-up spool, giving almost no paper acceleration, whereas the later Welte-Licensee used an industry standard smaller spool, which did cause the performances to accelerate. Not all CD producers have been careful to play the right type of roll on the right type of take-up spool, and this can cause errors of tempo, especially further into a roll. I am simplifying slightly here, because the different types of Welte roll have different widths, but it has been possible to copy from one to the other since the 1970s, alas without compensation for the different acceleration characteristics.

In short, my answer about Debussy's speed is that I don't really know. It's possible that they recorded all Children's Corner in one go, and then split the rolls, but my gut instinct is that they ought to be correct, and that modern roll copying or take-up spool sizes may account for inaccuracies on individual CDs.

The pedalling was notated by an ink trace, just as each note was. There was no indication of half-pedalling, and one does occasionally wonder whether very short pedal gaps were missed. But then the French had a style of pedalling that was more like a coloration device, in which they sometimes held it down through successive changes of harmony. You can hear that in Fauré's rolls, or in Planté's 78s, for example.

My friend, Denis Hall, is the best I know in the world at voicing reproducing pianos. The tradition for the Duo-Art and Ampico was to make them progressively brighter as you went further into the treble, because this gave a general additional prominence (beyond that created by the dynamic coding) to the majority of melody notes. Pianos were softer in those days, and you can't really mimic the sound with modern hammers.

The majority of recording pianos were around "B" size, and the recordings were designed for music rooms, and not for concert halls. I regard it as legitimate to take reproducing pianos to concerts (next one at the Purcell Room on 3rd December - see www.pianola.org), because the resulting drama more than outweighs any lack of subtlety in the dynamics, but for CDs it is better to use a more intimate piano and acoustic, in my opinion.

I don't think I have the Pierian CD, but Denis certainly does. Ken Caswell, of Austin, Texas, who is responsible for the recordings, is a good buddy, and we visit him every year or so. I still plump for Denis' Steinway Welte, which has taught both of us many new truths about the reproducing piano, but Ken's Feurich is the gutsiest upright I know.

I can't tell you how pleased I am that we are exchanging posts like this. If you haven't already done so, listen to some of the other piano roll recordings on The Editing of Piano Rolls thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,20642.0.html

For fifty years, reproducing pianos (and pianolas) have been largely the preserve of collectors, who have valued them for their casework or their mechanisms, leaving the music a poor third. It's about time for the musicians to fight back!

[iumonito]

Very informative.  I suspect Children's Corner must have been the end of the roll up to the little sheperd and the doll's serenade, which is extremely fast, then Golligogg's Cakewalk is just about right.  Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum, The snowflakes are dancing and Jimbo's lullaby are just a little on the fast side, so maybe they were late in the roll, but not at the very end.

Interesting archeology question.

[pianolist]

We listened to the roll of Children's Corner today, and compared it very unscientifically with the Condon Collection/Dal Segno and with Pierian. We had been rehearsing Rachmaninov for a concert in three weeks' time, and we were both tired! The Steinway Welte has a stroboscope drawn on the flywheel for the roll motor, so one can be reasonably sure of speed. I would say that Pierian is marginally slower than Dal Segno, and that the original roll is slower than both of them. Sorry, I forgot to note down the Pierian speed, but I can do so later. The acoustic on the Dal Segno made it very difficult to hear much detail.

I checked the details of the original roll. It was recorded and issued on one big roll, and I have to say that the speeds sounded reasonable to me. The original Welte-Mignon, known colloquially as the Welte Red (because it used red rolls) is the one with a large take up spool, so the roll accelerates very little. I think Denis Condon's Welte push-up will play either Welte Green or Welte Licensee, and so it has a smaller take-up spool, which means more acceleration.

So my initial conclusion is that Debussy's speeds are probably kosher, and that it is individual CDs which may have speeded things up. In due course we'll time things exactly, although that will only give you a timing for one particular performance by Debussy. I'm sure, like many pianists then and now, that he took things at slightly different speeds according to how he felt on the day.

By the way, the situation with Welte rolls is remarkably good. A friend in Germany, Tom Jansen, is making new and extremely accurate copies of old Welte rolls, and he has so far scanned about 1600 titles. They are better to use than original rolls, unless you just happen to find one in pristine condition, which is very unlikely. It makes it much easier for good rolls to be allied to good pianos, which was a haphazard situation before.

[pianistimo]

very interesting about the welte rolls being scanned and made into new copies - so you have a good roll with a good piano.  kind of exciting work you do.  your enthusiasm is probably rubbing off on a few people.  me, for instance.  i think i would now go to a pianola show - whereas before - i think i would run away.  fear of the unknown.  the pizza or ice-cream parlor where the pianola starts playing on it's own.  a childhood fear perhaps?

[iumonito]

Very reasonable and very validating.

When you have a chance and the inclination, it would be great for you guys to issue a short CD with the Debussy rolls well performed.  If you would indulge me, install the welte reader on a Bluthner model 2 for the Debussy and voice it on the mellow side.

I think that's how he would have liked it.

[pianolist]

If you would indulge me, install the welte reader on a Bluthner model 2 for the Debussy and voice it on the mellow side.

I think that's how he would have liked it.

Now there's a man who knows his pianos! Denis' Welte is built in to a Steinway grand, alas. Well, not alas, really, because it's a fine piano in its way. But there are some good Welte CDs just out in Germany, on a concert grand. Not Debussy, but you'll find the details at:

https://www.tacet.de/main/seite1e.htm

I think Denis draws just a bit more detail out of his piano, but these CDs have the advantage, for the general public, of a familiar piano sound.

Since I have been involved in player pianos for many years, and since I have been blessed (or otherwise) with a fairly analytical mind, I have taken it upon myself to feel that I have a responsibility towards their welfare. In the end, what I should like to see is a greater historical and musical truth emerge about them, but one does not necessarily arrive at that point by direct action. There are quite a few people involved in their history, and the world needs their contributions in a number of ways.

Slowly my friend Tom in Germany is being able to borrow more and more Welte rolls, and similar operations are taking place with regard to Duo-Art and Ampico. Some of the rolls, or the documents relating to their history, remain with collectors who have their own conflicting views on the subject, and if we issued too many of our own CDs, some of the happy co-operation might gently subside. And anyway, we don't have the funds for too many recordings.

But the serendipity of my being awarded 10 years' Gold Membership of Piano Street on account of becoming the 10,000th member made me think that this website is not a bad place for posting reproducing piano recordings on a step-by-step basis. We might well put Children's Corner up in due course. One should always remember that composers are not necessarily the best performers of their own works, and that our own favourite pieces were not always the ones which they played the best. But your interest has brought some cheer to Denis, who sometimes feels that he is shouting in the dark, so in a month or two I hope you'll find an mp3 on this site.

your enthusiasm is probably rubbing off on a few people. me, for instance. i think i would now go to a pianola show

Pianistimo, you are already full of enthusiasm for the whole of life. It explodes out of you, from 4.30 am onwards to my certain knowledge. It's one reason why a forum which includes dozens of crusty old piano professors would elevate you to the position of goddess! But I should now consider myself to have failed in life if I didn't lure you to at least one Pianola concert. I do have crates in which they have several times flown to the US of A.

[pianistimo]

congratulations on the award of 10 years gold membership!  i think that you contribute much knowledge and history of piano playing - as well as keeping us up to date on your own doings.

 i'd like to think i contribute at least an appreciation of piano performance, even if i am not currently booked for the entire year, half a year, half a month, half a day.  i say - whatever your dreams - you have to keep heading straight for them.  i am doing it little steps at a time.  i am currently sidetracked on disney stuff for a 'musical' at the kindergarten.  and, don't ask me why - but i also volunteered for helping with 'you're a good man, charlie brown' for the middle school.  i told them i played piano - so i'm doing the 'inbetween numbers' stuff for the kindergarten one - and sewing costumes for the other one. 

i'm finding out so much has changed between the time i went to school and of course, my children.  they are all so computer literate.  even when i went to take piano lessons again - i though - wow, i've got to get 'updated.'  so - i've been sorta doing that, too.  you can't just look like you stepped out of a carnival and expect to have everything planned nowdays.  nowdays - you act like you haven't anything planned - but secretly you do.  and, of course - popping a few tic-tacs in between.  not for breath control, really.  just to be cool.

i've been memorizing all those little acronyms - GTGN  (got to go now)  TMM (text message me) - but occasionally - i'll look at one of my daughter's t-shirts and then tell her i think she's wearing it upside down.  of course, some of them look like they're inside out and they're really right side out.  i must have turned one shirt inside to outside about five times and then realized - they're sewing the seams on the wrong sides nowdays!