That's it, I'm SWITCHING TO THE COUNTER INTUITIVE METHOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[netzow]

I have had enough of the intuitive method. To be honest i'm sick of it. I have already read chang's book I am getting Fink, Sandor and some others. I am switching. I am ready for Chord attacks, H.A. practice, Paralell sets and the list goes on. I have finally been driven over the edge, I had a piano lesson today, It was horrible. Everything was worse than last week almost, what was supposed to be new stuff was at a level just above sight reading because I have spent too much time on stuff I already had learned (not mastered) I practiced 14 hours this week and I got nothing. Last week was slightly better but not very good at all and I practiced 15 hours that week. I have realized my problems, un-neccesary repitition, lack of focus, no practice goals. This has resulted in diminishing returns, and lack of progress. You may be saying why are you posting this and why is is switching. A. For encouragment B. For advice on starting the method C. To vent my frusteration D. For motivation, to make myself keep it up. E. To post questions and comments about my findings, I don't believe anyone has done this publically (so to speak) for several years. F. To set about starting a outline of the method as a whole. Not so much the method but the Ideas behind the method. In other words, if you take bad habits, fit this into it's place in the big picture and set the entire picture up. G. Perhaps we can get Bernhard posting again and revive the days of the forum that are gone by. I mean, Come on the Anything but piano section has the most posts!!!!! This is a piano forum not a anything but piano forum, curb yourselves! H. I want to be a Performace major, I can't be having week's like this one. I need to be making progress and be preparing myself for the study of music at a higher level. I. Because my life is to busy to waist un neccisary time practicing when I could be doing other things like learning to spell. J. because I want to be the best that I can be and I need help! actually to be specific I need bernhard..........but anyway. K. To Vent. L. I want to do things right not slowily and ineffectivly. M. Because the reason it took my so long to switch is because I am lazy, I mean come on look at my spelling. N. Because this isn't the only part of my life that needs change and I need to start somewhere. O. Because I neeeded to vent and piano street is a better place to do that than some.
Alright that was A ramble..........and perhaps a little strong. Thank you to anyone who stayed with me.

[counterpoint]

Hi netzow, your post sounds great - something like: I WANT TO BEGIN A NEW LIFE !!! 

You say, you are so lazy. In a text, that is so long and detailed, that I don't believe, that's true.

I would confirm you in your wish to change your practising methods. That's always the first thing if you realize, that you are on the wrong path. But every change will take time, much time! Things you have learned wrong for years will not get right within weeks. You should be patient with yourself, otherwise it will get very frustrating.

You want Bernhard back. Yeah, I think, we all want him back. Where could he hide? I have no clue...

In the meantime, there is a nice function here in the forum: the button with the magnifier on it and the text "SEARCH". You will find many helpful hints, from Bernhard and from others.

[pianistimo]

sorry if i post too much in 'anything but.'  i feel your pain.  the problem is that your problem is common.  a student and teacher that clash.  there should be lots of progress for 14 hours of practice.  perhaps you are trying TOO hard.  slowing down helps.  not wanting to learn pages and pages - and just being satisfied with incremental increases over a certain period of time.  a sort of 'natural flow.'

what helps me is to combine several things.  these things helped me in the last 2-3 years:

to take some classes in theory, form/analysis
to take some piano lessons - at university! - learning more about playing with flatter hands and relaxing and how to move with ease.
to take some kind of MASTER CLASS - to have a reason to perform - to hear other's play and watch - and to listen to all kinds of tips and refresh my mind of certain pieces.

if you are feeling segregated from the other population of people your own age who also play piano - no wonder you feel somewhat frustrated!  go to your local community college or uni for some lessons!  then you will have not only a professor - but other students that you can get encouragement from.

for me - being a bit older - memorization had to come back at a fast pace.  i would tape record my playing and listen to it over and over (right speeds, and hopefully correct notes).  this helped a lot!

[loops]

Something bernard said that really stuck in my mind about this subject:

try different things, experiment, find what is right for you.

So, Re: incremental vs non-incremental learning, he said to learn 2 pieces, one one way and one the
other. And see what works best for you.

I took this advice. I learned one piece my natural/intuituve way (involving playing the whole thing right off), and another the incremental bit by bit way.

My criteria were not just how long it took to learn to play by memory, but also, how confident at the end, how much agony  and frustration involved, how much maintenance when learned.

My natural method meant I not only had to learn the piece, but re-learn it over and over because I had to also unlearn wrong things that I'd rushed over, not just wrong notes but wrong rhythms and articulations.
The wrong things got into muscle memory and then took alot of getting out. The incremental method was seemingly agonizingly slower in the initial phases but *overall* faster, calmer and simpler.

No prizes for guessing what method I use routinely now. 

[molto-marcato]

Hi,

when you are referring to the intuitive method do you mean just playing from the beginning to the end of a piece as often as it is necessary/possible? Or how exactly did you organize your practicing sessons so far? I usually divide a piece in small sections and do a lot of variations until i have memorized a certain section, playing slowly but with focus most of the time. I found that for me the pure C.C. Chang method does not lead to an improvement.

[pianistimo]

maybe combining both 'incremental' learning and the 'whole' is good?  i'm no expert at the whole yet - but, i do know people that can seemingly read through a score at the first sight.  when you become really good at sightreading - this must help immensely.  i usually start out and go as FAR as i can without stopping.  and, then each day -i try to go farther sightreading.  this is after i've done the incremental work and memorization.  otherwise - i will rely on my sightreading and forget the memorized parts (because sightreading helps me to think i've already learned it).

[asyncopated]

I don't really have anthing specific to say about your comments.  So, the purpose of this post is in a more general spirit as an aside, or  as a complement to what you have or are trying to say.  It is also a reminder for myself -- I find that sharing what I have, or am learning a good way to make it stick.

Firstly, I agree that you need to find a method suited to yourself -- your weaknesses, style, how much you can concentrate, taylored to your weak points.  Your teacher should be able to help you with that. 

For one thing I think that the stuff in this forum or in books should be used more as tools than as a main source for learning the piano.  Most of what you will have to learn simply cannot be put into words.  I really mean this.  Our language just doesn't have enough detail to accurately describe what you need to do to become a good musician.  I didn't really believe this until I met my current teacher. 

This is mainly because books and techniques like parallel sets, gravity drops, repeated note groups or even hannon etc. are able to only offer solutions to specific types of problems.  I'm not saying that these solutions are not useful, in fact they are.   But you should be aware that learning the instrument requires a whole lot more than a small set of descriptions of how to tackle specific problems that you might have.

I suppose I don't quite know what you mean by the intuitive method.  However, I have to say that a lot of the learning has to occur intuitively.  The process starts with listening carefully, being able to identify and eventually being able to produce a sound or type of sound -- this is the intuitive part and the really difficult part.

I also think that the main obsticles to learning are mental barriers -- what you think you can or can't do.  Often i see people with mental barriers to what they think is possible, and I have to admit, that I too have had to move my 'goal post' several times recently. 

A couple of months back, I though that there was no fast way to learn notes -- in a sense, you just have to repeat the notes and movements until it gets in your head.  That's what I thought.  I have even posted this exact question before on this problem... asking how to learn notes more quickly.  I did not get any satisfactory answers, and it seemed to me that repetition was the only way.

My teacher, a couple of months back, told me that the way to learn notes is not by repeating mindlessly, but to make sure that when you press the key, it means something to you.  I tried this, and am still working out the details, but I have to say, since than I have been learning notes at a pace that I never imagined possible.  And really, it's that simple.  It uses a lot more brain power, but it really works.

On this line, I have to say, seeing someone like my teacher play the piano really has changed all my guidelines and goals.  For one thing, she really has the golden sound in her fingers.  Sometimes i just have a question and randomly pick a passage for her to demonstrate.   Everything she plays seems to be filled with meaning and colour.   

This is what I believe cannot be described.  The technique you learning here can help you, but be aware that it will not and cannot inject meaning into your playing.  For that, you will just have to learn from person and not a book.

Here is another change in my perception on an "intuitive" method.    I use to believe that after learning the notes to a piece, if you just keep playing it, it will get better with time.   Right now, I simply don't believe that this is true anymore.   My current teacher always offers practical advice and is able to demonstrate what she means.  She would often offer practicle advice like "this phrase need to lead to this note", or "you are accenting this when you shouldn't be".  Leaving things to chance and just playing a substandard version of a piece over and over again, ultimately will not improve it (much).  I find that taking active steps to shape that piece results in something much more robust and satisfying.

My thoughts are rather random, but I hope they are of some use to you or someone else.

[teresa_b]

Dear netzow,

I feel your pain!  Here's what I wrote in another thread--it's my personal method, and it works the best for me.  It's sort of a combo of "intuitive" and step-by-step.

1.  When you first start a piece, "wallow" in it for a few days and don't start the slogging yet.  Make sure you love the piece and it doesn't seem so far beyond you technically that you will run into a brick wall when practicing.

2.  Then, begin H.S work (AND some H.T. playing on easier passages so you don't get too frustrated or bored doing the hard stuff).

3.  Find the hardest passages (Break it down to no more that a couple of pages or less--even a few bars).  Plan a session to work on THAT passage, HS and HT, starting very slowly and make it a POINT not to play it above the tempo you can do with minimal to no errors.  Meanwhile, have fun with something you can play well in the same practice session--warm up with the fun piece for 10 minutes and/or end up with it. 

4.  The next day, do that SAME passage and you will see how much better it is!  This is heart-warming!  Then repeat step 3 daily.  Work to get the passages up to tempo, but stop at a slower tempo if you are getting sloppy.

5.  When you have the entire piece (or movement) fairly accurate at a slower tempo, play all of it it through at the slow tempo BEFORE you try it at tempo.  EVERY practice session if possible, play it at a slow tempo FIRST--even when you believe you can play it perfectly at tempo. 

6.  Once you get the piece down with   some mistakes, but without having to stop and re-start, PLAY it all the way through to get the "intuitive" feel--the mood, the forward flow--listen for all these things.  Maybe record yourself to really hear where you are not producing what you want. 

7.  Do not play the piece through time after time without going back to work on things you know are weak points--then you'll have to do some unlearning.

8.  DON'T force it--that's punishment that will make you hate it.  If you don't feel like slogging today, to hell with it, and just play stuff you like for an hour!  Tomorrow you can go back to really working.     (It's best to allow yourself only one day of goofing off if you're seriously learning a piece.)

HAVE FUN!!!
Teresa

[liszt-essence]

H.S H.T etc..

I've read them before.. but what do they mean? Could anyone please clarify.

Netzow:

I totally agree with you, there should be a very clear and sound outline for a piano method. A no-nonsense, structural outline that has stood the test of time and proved it's worth before. I sure wish you much luck on the path to become a performer.

[netzow]

H.S H.T etc..

I've read them before.. but what do they mean? Could anyone please clarify.

Netzow:

I totally agree with you, there should be a very clear and sound outline for a piano method. A no-nonsense, structural outline that has stood the test of time and proved it's worth before. I sure wish you much luck on the path to become a performer.

H.S is hands seperate H.T is hands together some people also use H.A, hands apart. More to follow soon on everything.

[netzow]

Here is the afore mentioned "more to follow". Thank you to everyone who responded.

Hi netzow, your post sounds great - something like: I WANT TO BEGIN A NEW LIFE !!! 

You say, you are so lazy. In a text, that is so long and detailed, that I don't believe, that's true.

I would confirm you in your wish to change your practising methods. That's always the first thing if you realize, that you are on the wrong path. But every change will take time, much time! Things you have learned wrong for years will not get right within weeks. You should be patient with yourself, otherwise it will get very frustrating.

You want Bernhard back. Yeah, I think, we all want him back. Where could he hide? I have no clue...

In the meantime, there is a nice function here in the forum: the button with the magnifier on it and the text "SEARCH". You will find many helpful hints, from Bernhard and from others.

First of all thank you! It is something like I want to start a new life. I find that a lot of stuff that you do in the process of learning and mastering pieces relates to life. It relates to life in one sense because it is such a big part of my life. It also relates to life because what we do when learning and mastering relates to life in a very direct sense. To play the piano we need to have self dicipline to keep from developing incorrect technique, to keep at it and play every day, as well as making yourself do the hard things that you sometimes don't want to do like breaking it up into small sections (one of my problems). You need organize and use time management in real life as well. I keep finding more and more things that apply. But enough of that.

I may write long detailed posts but this does not mean I am not lazy. I tend not to be lazy when I really want to do something. If I want to do something I do it, if I don't want to do something I don't. This is really evident in terms of school work. I need to keep my school up to be able to do get into the collage-conservatory I want to get into. Once again we are back to self dicipline.

I will refer back to something bernhard said when asked about having to repeat himself so many times. He said (I don't remember exactly but along the lines of) what people are looking for is confirmation. I find this to be true in my case so again thank you. btw perhaps if he wrote a book he wouldn't have to explain it? Perhaps that is why he is hiding I sure hope so.

Yes, this is going to require a lot of patience as I can see already, however it will be worth it in the end. I remember reading some where that even the greatest concert pianists are always looking for ways to improve there practicing efficiency. This is very encouraging!

Yes, the search function is one of my favorite things about this forum. I am currently in the process reading over 300 threads, this is an amazing amout of very useful information. When I am done I may post a synopsis of some sort. Would anyone be interested in my findings? Not just from the piano forum but from Chang fink and sandor.

sorry if i post too much in 'anything but.'  i feel your pain.  the problem is that your problem is common.  a student and teacher that clash.  there should be lots of progress for 14 hours of practice.  perhaps you are trying TOO hard.  slowing down helps.  not wanting to learn pages and pages - and just being satisfied with incremental increases over a certain period of time.  a sort of 'natural flow.'

what helps me is to combine several things.  these things helped me in the last 2-3 years:

to take some classes in theory, form/analysis
to take some piano lessons - at university! - learning more about playing with flatter hands and relaxing and how to move with ease.
to take some kind of MASTER CLASS - to have a reason to perform - to hear other's play and watch - and to listen to all kinds of tips and refresh my mind of certain pieces.

if you are feeling segregated from the other population of people your own age who also play piano - no wonder you feel somewhat frustrated!  go to your local community college or uni for some lessons!  then you will have not only a professor - but other students that you can get encouragement from.

for me - being a bit older - memorization had to come back at a fast pace.  i would tape record my playing and listen to it over and over (right speeds, and hopefully correct notes).  this helped a lot!

I guess I can forgive you for posting on the anything but forum restrain yourself!
I am not entirely sure that my teacher and I are clashing but I have told her at my lesson today that I am changing methods. She is not against the methods that I am looking at I don't believe so much as she is not aware of them I hope to give her my printed copy of chang's book when I have finished with it.
You hit the head on the nail, I should be making a lot of progress. You may have something about trying to hard as well as slowing down. I think I have been rushing to much and this has been a part of my un-neccisary repetition. I recall something else I read on this forum. It went something along the lines of after each repetition stop relax put your hands on your lap feel your back side on the bench and use your time to think about what you are practicing. Use the time to run through the section correctly in your head. Only then should you continue to practice. Come to think of it i think I will lend my piano teacher fink and sandor as well. I have (am) considered switching piano teachers. I am not sure how long it will be before she say's I can't take you any further, also I don't want to switch right before getting ready for auditions. She does give advice on how to practice but not on everything and not very specifically. I do not ask for suggestions either. I also wonder about learning things such as the correct motions with out a teacher who really understands them. My parents and I have been considering talking with her about how long she will be able to teach me. This does not mean that want to switch per say but it does mean that I am thinking about what is best for my musical progress. If i were to switch I would ask my former teachers teacher who is a prof. at the University. She (the prof.) is a fairly well know teacher and I can't help but think would be a great teacher for me. I would also have a decent idea of how she teaches from my experiences with my old teacher. To sum it up I need to talk to my teacher and my parents and figure out what is best for me. I am somewhat reluctant to switch as I have just started 6 months ago with my current teacher. She is putting a lot of effort into what she is doing (I am one of only two students she has) and am thinking that a switch might not be needed. There also may be an issue of money with a new teacher. Perhaps If I make her more aware of the methods we could work at it together. She is very open to learning new things, and is very enthusiastic and excited about teaching me, she enjoys the challenge. She is also an excelent pianist and has been taught by Julliard and Eastman Grad's. I have also toyed with the Idea of having two teachers keeping this one for church music and having another for classical

Thank you for your suggestions on what has helped you. I think that learning the motions of relaxed non stresed playing is something that would be very helpful as I have been developing far to much stress. Could you explain exactly what a master class is? I have one friend who is very good at the piano, a year younger and much better than me He is a great encouragement. I listen to him play and he listens to me on a fairy regular basis.

Something bernard said that really stuck in my mind about this subject:

try different things, experiment, find what is right for you.

So, Re: incremental vs non-incremental learning, he said to learn 2 pieces, one one way and one the
other. And see what works best for you.

I took this advice. I learned one piece my natural/intuituve way (involving playing the whole thing right off), and another the incremental bit by bit way.

My criteria were not just how long it took to learn to play by memory, but also, how confident at the end, how much agony  and frustration involved, how much maintenance when learned.

My natural method meant I not only had to learn the piece, but re-learn it over and over because I had to also unlearn wrong things that I'd rushed over, not just wrong notes but wrong rhythms and articulations.
The wrong things got into muscle memory and then took alot of getting out. The incremental method was seemingly agonizingly slower in the initial phases but *overall* faster, calmer and simpler.

No prizes for guessing what method I use routinely now. 

Yes, that quote of bernhard's is soooo true. I think that is exactly what I need to do I think between Bernhard and the others on the forum and fink, sandor, and chang along with a bit of what I already know and use. I will be able to find something that works for me. I have experienced some of the exact same things you are talking about. i.e relearning ect.......

Hi,

when you are referring to the intuitive method do you mean just playing from the beginning to the end of a piece as often as it is necessary/possible? Or how exactly did you organize your practicing sessons so far? I usually divide a piece in small sections and do a lot of variations until i have memorized a certain section, playing slowly but with focus most of the time. I found that for me the pure C.C. Chang method does not lead to an improvement.

When I refer to the intuitive method I mean what I have been doing more or less starting with hanon and scales playing these for half an hour and then doing my pieces. I would practice these by starting at the beginning and taking the first page I would (more or less play this through till I had it learned not always sometimes I would work on a little part that I hade problems with after I had the rest of it down) this method would result in having to relearn a part of the page when I had it already learned incorrectly (not easy). I would then take the second page and do the same thing while maintaining (practicing by playing way to many times and making way to many mistakes because I had learned it incorrectly with an end result of diminishing returns and taking for ever to get it down pat and still making mistakes for a long period afterwards.) the first page. This process would continue till I was done the piece.

You say focus most of the time? what does that mean? I agree with you about the pure CC method or the pure method of anyone will probably not work for most if not all people who try it.

maybe combining both 'incremental' learning and the 'whole' is good?  i'm no expert at the whole yet - but, i do know people that can seemingly read through a score at the first sight.  when you become really good at sightreading - this must help immensely.  i usually start out and go as FAR as i can without stopping.  and, then each day -i try to go farther sightreading.  this is after i've done the incremental work and memorization.  otherwise - i will rely on my sightreading and forget the memorized parts (because sightreading helps me to think i've already learned it).

What do you mean by 'whole' learning I assume you mean by 'incremental' practicing in incremental bits that over lap into the next little bit. Therefore progressing slowly (but in the end quicker than the intuitive method) through the piece. I have always wondered about good sight readers (I am not one) How much easier is it for them to learn? I would assume it would be quicker because they start closer to the finished product and make less mistakes on the first time through. I think sight reading a piece when you first start is one of the best things you can do it will help you develop your plan for learning the piece and help to improve your sight reading.

[netzow]

Continued from previous post

I don't really have anthing specific to say about your comments.  So, the purpose of this post is in a more general spirit as an aside, or  as a complement to what you have or are trying to say.  It is also a reminder for myself -- I find that sharing what I have, or am learning a good way to make it stick.

Firstly, I agree that you need to find a method suited to yourself -- your weaknesses, style, how much you can concentrate, taylored to your weak points.  Your teacher should be able to help you with that. 

For one thing I think that the stuff in this forum or in books should be used more as tools than as a main source for learning the piano.  Most of what you will have to learn simply cannot be put into words.  I really mean this.  Our language just doesn't have enough detail to accurately describe what you need to do to become a good musician.  I didn't really believe this until I met my current teacher. 

This is mainly because books and techniques like parallel sets, gravity drops, repeated note groups or even hannon etc. are able to only offer solutions to specific types of problems.  I'm not saying that these solutions are not useful, in fact they are.   But you should be aware that learning the instrument requires a whole lot more than a small set of descriptions of how to tackle specific problems that you might have.

I suppose I don't quite know what you mean by the intuitive method.  However, I have to say that a lot of the learning has to occur intuitively.  The process starts with listening carefully, being able to identify and eventually being able to produce a sound or type of sound -- this is the intuitive part and the really difficult part.

I also think that the main obsticles to learning are mental barriers -- what you think you can or can't do.  Often i see people with mental barriers to what they think is possible, and I have to admit, that I too have had to move my 'goal post' several times recently. 

A couple of months back, I though that there was no fast way to learn notes -- in a sense, you just have to repeat the notes and movements until it gets in your head.  That's what I thought.  I have even posted this exact question before on this problem... asking how to learn notes more quickly.  I did not get any satisfactory answers, and it seemed to me that repetition was the only way.

My teacher, a couple of months back, told me that the way to learn notes is not by repeating mindlessly, but to make sure that when you press the key, it means something to you.  I tried this, and am still working out the details, but I have to say, since than I have been learning notes at a pace that I never imagined possible.  And really, it's that simple.  It uses a lot more brain power, but it really works.

On this line, I have to say, seeing someone like my teacher play the piano really has changed all my guidelines and goals.  For one thing, she really has the golden sound in her fingers.  Sometimes i just have a question and randomly pick a passage for her to demonstrate.   Everything she plays seems to be filled with meaning and colour.   

This is what I believe cannot be described.  The technique you learning here can help you, but be aware that it will not and cannot inject meaning into your playing.  For that, you will just have to learn from person and not a book.

Here is another change in my perception on an "intuitive" method.    I use to believe that after learning the notes to a piece, if you just keep playing it, it will get better with time.   Right now, I simply don't believe that this is true anymore.   My current teacher always offers practical advice and is able to demonstrate what she means.  She would often offer practicle advice like "this phrase need to lead to this note", or "you are accenting this when you shouldn't be".  Leaving things to chance and just playing a substandard version of a piece over and over again, ultimately will not improve it (much).  I find that taking active steps to shape that piece results in something much more robust and satisfying.

My thoughts are rather random, but I hope they are of some use to you or someone else.

I agree with you "I find that sharing what I have, or am learning a good way to make it stick." I am finding this out right now

I think you make a excellent point. I do need to have a method that is tailored to my weak points and ability to concentrate. You are correct also in that I should talk to my teacher. I also agree that you can't really put into words so much the process as learning music in a way that completly explains how you learn it. You are also (once again so right) right on about specific problems. That is excactly what technique is according to chang. The ability to execute a bizilion different passages correctly. You can't read a book and learn how to master every technical difficulty that is thrown at you. There comes a point where you need to figure out based on past experience what techniques to apply to every specific situation. This according to what I read somewhere is the real challenge in learning to practice correctly, learning what technique to apply where. Thank you very much for reminding me of that your comments are very helpful.

It is also true that is the part of intuitiveness that I need to retain
Mental road blocks. My brother used to have these in his school he would get it into his head that he couldn't learn something and then he wouldn't learn something I had not thought of this in a musical sense before.

I am not sure I get what you mean when you say "when you press the key make sure it means something to you" could this be said in different words by saying make sure every key you press have an aim? Is this a way of making yourself think an concentrate so that you play the correct notes. If you could pontificate I would apreciate it, this is interesting to me. I will also be sure to spend time thinking about what it really means to "make sure when you press the key it means something to you". Thank you.

I believe the "golden fingers" that you refer to is the part of playing the piano that is talent to an extent. However I would have to agree with chang on this when he says that technique opens the door to this type of playing. I have found this type of thing to be true with bolth of my piano teachers. They have a tone in there playing that resonates which I do not have most of the time.

My teacher will point out specific things like the things you point out as well. I agree this is very helpful, she will say these notes need to be like this she will play it the way she want's it played I find this very helpful. I think this is part of what cannot be said with words. Sometimes if words do not get the point across music will. That is one of the great things about music.

Dear netzow,

I feel your pain!  Here's what I wrote in another thread--it's my personal method, and it works the best for me.  It's sort of a combo of "intuitive" and step-by-step.

1.  When you first start a piece, "wallow" in it for a few days and don't start the slogging yet.  Make sure you love the piece and it doesn't seem so far beyond you technically that you will run into a brick wall when practicing.

2.  Then, begin H.S work (AND some H.T. playing on easier passages so you don't get too frustrated or bored doing the hard stuff).

3.  Find the hardest passages (Break it down to no more that a couple of pages or less--even a few bars).  Plan a session to work on THAT passage, HS and HT, starting very slowly and make it a POINT not to play it above the tempo you can do with minimal to no errors.  Meanwhile, have fun with something you can play well in the same practice session--warm up with the fun piece for 10 minutes and/or end up with it. 

4.  The next day, do that SAME passage and you will see how much better it is!  This is heart-warming!  Then repeat step 3 daily.  Work to get the passages up to tempo, but stop at a slower tempo if you are getting sloppy.

5.  When you have the entire piece (or movement) fairly accurate at a slower tempo, play all of it it through at the slow tempo BEFORE you try it at tempo.  EVERY practice session if possible, play it at a slow tempo FIRST--even when you believe you can play it perfectly at tempo. 

6.  Once you get the piece down with   some mistakes, but without having to stop and re-start, PLAY it all the way through to get the "intuitive" feel--the mood, the forward flow--listen for all these things.  Maybe record yourself to really hear where you are not producing what you want. 

7.  Do not play the piece through time after time without going back to work on things you know are weak points--then you'll have to do some unlearning.

8.  DON'T force it--that's punishment that will make you hate it.  If you don't feel like slogging today, to hell with it, and just play stuff you like for an hour!  Tomorrow you can go back to really working.     (It's best to allow yourself only one day of goofing off if you're seriously learning a piece.)

HAVE FUN!!!
Teresa

Thank you for sharing what works for you I think if more people did this more often on forums it would be vary helpful to fellow pianists in developing there methods.

1. Very good idea make sure that the piece is not beyond you completely or the best practice methods in the world aren't going to do you a bit of good. Although I would keep one thing in mind when leaning all pieces. Bernhard once said that the process of learning a piece was making something that was impossible when you started possible when you have finished.

2. I think this was along the lines of bernhards and changs idea that if you could play it H.T at first than why bother with H.A. This may not be your exact point but that is just my thought on it.

3. Very important point. I had actually started to do this with my old teacher. Any Ideas on how to present the case it to her?. I guess the argument is that the hardest sections (those which give you the most trouble) need the most work and therefore should be practiced for the longest period of time. Slightly different from chang's method of infinite speed with the playing slowly. I have wondered about this and may use your approach here if I can figure out the motions. I believe chang's argument was that it was fine to start slowly and build up to speed as long as you were using the correct motions.

4. Good point about the sloppiness. It is also kind of like bernhard's method of having a goal and achieving  it within the session his method was that you checked the next day to see if you could still achieve the goal and if you couldn't you repeated the session if you could you moved on.

5. Good point about FPD it is important to play the section you are practicing slowly at some point (last?) during the section.

6. Good idea record yourself. I should use this I have (once again with my old teacher) done this in the past. Also a good idea about getting the feel.

7. Another one of my basic problem's not going back to fix a problem when you are playing through the entire piece. I do eventually get around to it but not before it is a habit.

8. Yes, I need to enjoy playing "all work and no play make jack a dull boy".

H.S H.T etc..

I've read them before.. but what do they mean? Could anyone please clarify.

Netzow:

I totally agree with you, there should be a very clear and sound outline for a piano method. A no-nonsense, structural outline that has stood the test of time and proved it's worth before. I sure wish you much luck on the path to become a performer.

This clear and sound outline for a piano method is exactly what I am trying to create for myself. 1. to enable me to practice it is very helpful for me to have a basic plan or outline. The details can be fitted into the plan and applied to the specific situation. I would say I am trying to develop a step by step process that works for me and can be adapted to fit most pieces and situations. I have realized in this process what I want to do with my life. That is teach others how to practice the piano efficiently and stress free. Creating an enjoyable learning experience for the student and a process that I would make each student aware of so that they could follow and continue to develop it long after they departed from me. This I think from my experiences would be helpful to the student to realize what the teacher was doing. I would have applied a lot of the stuff I had learned if I had know what I had learned. (I would also like to perform not as a concert pianist but still perform) Thank you and good luck to you as well in your studies on the piano.

Thank you everyone for all your thoughts they have been helpful to remind me and make me think about my practicing.

I think to boil it down I need to learn to orginize my practice efficiently, to break my practice up and use efficient techniques and methods as well as a practice record.  To play with the correct motions stress free. I need to do all this while playing musically and using correct interpretation. As well as formulating plan's for learning specific pieces (perhaps putting them in a document for on the computer and saving them in case you teach the piece one day.) as well as noting what you changed that worked and what did work and what didn't. btw correct and efficient means using chang, fink, sandor, bernhard's methods and coming up with something between them that will work for me. I think this is the general agreement among pianists (and in this thread) that you take what seems to work for other people and see what works for you.

BTW what do people think and what have you experienced with the idea of practicing pieces that you have trouble on before you go to bed. i.e your brain progress on the piece during the night.

Also you may have noticed that I have not been completely alienated from the methods of bernhard and chang. I believe that my old teacher was aware of this way of practicing. This is one reason I have thought about going to my old teachers teacher. She may be able to help me with this sort of thing.

P.S I hope in my comments did not come across with a know it all attitude if I did this was not my
intent I have a problem of doing this with out realizing it. It boils down to an attitude problem.

Thank you all very very very much. All of your time spent replying is appreciated very much. Let me know where you think I am right or wrong all thoughts are appreciated.

[pianistimo]

dear netzow,

when i returned to taking piano lessons after 15-20 years (excepting a few years inbetween with a piano teacher and organ teacher for a year and half year) i was just like you.  worried about everything.  how everything would 'come together.'  basically, it comes back to you like riding a bicycle.  but, to learn finesse - you need an excellent teacher from the start.  not an ok. teacher.  not a good teacher.  an excellent one.  it will relieve you of many agonizing moments of doubt.  you may suffer as a result of choosing this teacher - but you will not regret it in three years time. 

the first thing my teacher seemed to eliminate right off the bat was worry itself.  i was worried if i was too old.  too lacking enough memory.  too this.  too that.  basically worried about everything anyone COULD worry about.  i think his calm demeanor was much like a doctor with a cancer patient.  if you die.  you die. there's not much to worry about.  i mean - you'll still play the piano well in any case after a few lessons with me.  what i didn't realize is that HOW well he could teach and how much i learned in a very short amount of time.  that is the agonizing part with other teachers.  hours and hours semi-wasted.  i'm talking about teachers that are next door neighbors or someone who wants to do a good deed that perhaps plays accordian as their major instrument. 

now, the teacher you have may well be a good teacher.  but, tell her goodbye.  tell her your moving and then - disappear for a while.  reappear at the next location full of energy to move forward.  you didn't have to say you were 'moving on musically.' 

ok.  then you get this super difficult - sometimes mean - very demanding - and yet - very calm and structured and methodical excellent teacher.  you work very very hard and see lots of progress for 14 hour week practices.  and, you do not challenge the teacher's method.  you shut up about any sort of chang or sandor or fink - and just listen to what your teacher says.  after you try it for three years - you can then decide what you like and what you don't and then - if you want - learn more of another method.  in my experience - to give a method a chance - it has to be ONLY that method and for a long enough period of time to truly test that particular method. 

master classes are a great opportunity to embarrass yourself without truly embarrassing yourself on a public stage.  in a master class - the teacher may stop you (in front of your peers) and ask you to change one or two minor things and play again.  it's a mini-lesson and major performing experience.  you will need to have all your measures numbered so that you do not make your peers wait whilst you count to measure 53 (this is one of my first bad memories).  there are many things you can do to make performance much less of an anxious worry thing - and a beautiful sharing experience.  basically - you get used to embarrassment so it doesn't bother you anymore.  say - the worst happens and you have a memory failure for 50 % of the classes.  by the time you get to march or april - one day - you go in and play perfectly.  that is the day you lost your worries.  after that - everything is downhill.  (or uphill?)   you don't worry about failure.  you've experienced most all the failure you're going to have in playing the piano.  then you start building on successes.

[asyncopated]

Wow long post .  It's nice when someone replys like that  .

When I refer to the intuitive method I mean what I have been doing more or less starting with hanon and scales playing these for half an hour and then doing my pieces. I would practice these by starting at the beginning and taking the first page I would (more or less play this through till I had it learned not always sometimes I would work on a little part that I hade problems with after I had the rest of it down) this method would result in having to relearn a part of the page when I had it already learned incorrectly (not easy). I would then take the second page and do the same thing while maintaining (practicing by playing way to many times and making way to many mistakes because I had learned it incorrectly with an end result of diminishing returns and taking for ever to get it down pat and still making mistakes for a long period afterwards.) the first page. This process would continue till I was done the piece.

I wouldn't call that the intuitive method, I would call it the pain inflicting method of learning and unlearning and relearning again and again.

I believe the "golden fingers" that you refer to is the part of playing the piano that is talent to an extent. However I would have to agree with chang on this when he says that technique opens the door to this type of playing. I have found this type of thing to be true with bolth of my piano teachers. They have a tone in there playing that resonates which I do not have most of the time.

I am not sure I get what you mean when you say "when you press the key make sure it means something to you" could this be said in different words by saying make sure every key you press have an aim? Is this a way of making yourself think an concentrate so that you play the correct notes. If you could pontificate I would apreciate it, this is interesting to me. I will also be sure to spend time thinking about what it really means to "make sure when you press the key it means something to you".

Rearranged your paragraphs because I want to describe "golden fingers" first.  This is because I think that "making sure each note means something to you" is part the journey to develop a good sound.

Here is where the mental block kicks in.  I thought this too   That  golden fingers is a talent.  I am starting to think that it is not.  It is really training, firstly to hear, identify how to play a good sound and after that to be able to do it consistently, relying on technique.  If you think about it, a 5 year old starting to play the piano has no discipline to make a good sound, but a good teacher, will slowly get the child to understand very quickly.  Whereas, if you don't tell someone how to do it, they just keep banging a way at the piano (or play intuitively) and eventually never get to a stage where they produce a really good sound.

Now the second part.  What I mean is that everytime you play something, whether in practice or on concert, you are telling a story that was written down by the composer.  The notes in music are certainly not random (i'm sure you know this).  The composer has choosen them carefully to give meaning in the piece.  Each note relates to notes before and after it, has meaning within the phrase, the section and too some extent general structure of the piece (if it were a sonata with 3/4 movments). 

To understand what I'm trying to say, i suppose hearing is much better than describing.  I recommend the recent "fur elise" in the audition room, by vladimir doudin.  To me, he has "golden fingers".   If you listen to each note as carefully as you can, they all conspire to weave a story.  No note is out of place, and each breathes into the next.  At certain points in his playing, I even though that I heard what resembles Gilels playing the pathetic or the appasionata.  I kid you not.  And this is "fur elise".

Vladimir doudin, if you read some of his post has a very interesting idea of trying to teach people a set of rules for relating each note to the next -- thus to some extent giving them meaning.  I don't really know the full extent of his ideas or any rules.  I would really love to hear them.  At the moment, I think that it's possible to teach people to relate each note dynamically with a set of rules -- which may be a good thing, so that beginners (like me) don't make too many mistakes.  But I'm not sure if you can set rules for touch, or teach movement in that way.  Anyway, I'm deviating. 

So by this I mean that don't just play each note, but be fully aware of it's effect in the phrase. Where is it leading to? where it's coming from? Is it part of a group of scales? appegios?  where does the phrase lead?  If you are playing a chord, do all notes have the same role?  are some more important and some less?  Does the phrase have a mood associated?  Is the composer mimicing orchastration from another instrument? Questions like these help me to understand the meaning and context of the notes that I'm playing.  I find that thinking about this all the time, even the when you look at a new piece for the very first time, requires an enormous amount of concentration.  But at the same time, each note finds its position in my head more quickly. 

hope that I'm explaining rather than confusing.  Good practicing.

[loops]

My teacher, a couple of months back, told me that the way to learn notes is not by repeating mindlessly, but to make sure that when you press the key, it means something to you.  I tried this, and am still working out the details, but I have to say, since than I have been learning notes at a pace that I never imagined possible.  And really, it's that simple.  It uses a lot more brain power, but it really works.

This idea of every note meaning something , I really like it. I guess it's meaning is the role it plays in the whole. I remember watching a choreographer being interviewed (on the TV) and he described how the principal dancer of his company turned to him and said, what is the meaning of each step. I got the idea it wasn't a purely theoretical meaning, nor purely a story meaning. But a combination.

thank you asyncopated (and netzow for the topic)

[netzow]

&p

dear netzow,

when i returned to taking piano lessons after 15-20 years (excepting a few years inbetween with a piano teacher and organ teacher for a year and half year) i was just like you.; worried about everything.  how everything would 'come together.'  basically, it comes back to you like riding a bicycle.  but, to learn finesse - you need an excellent teacher from the start.  not an ok. teacher.  not a good teacher.  an excellent one.  it will relieve you of many agonizing moments of doubt.  you may suffer as a result of choosing this teacher - but you will not regret it in three years time. 

the first thing my teacher seemed to eliminate right off the bat was worry itself.  i was worried if i was too old.  too lacking enough memory.  too this.  too that.  basically worried about everything anyone COULD worry about.  i think his calm demeanor was much like a doctor with a cancer patient.  if you die.  you die. there's not much to worry about.  i mean - you'll still play the piano well in any case after a few lessons with me.  what i didn't realize is that HOW well he could teach and how much i learned in a very short amount of time.  that is the agonizing part with other teachers.  hours and hours semi-wasted.  i'm talking about teachers that are next door neighbors or someone who wants to do a good deed that perhaps plays accordian as their major instrument. 

now, the teacher you have may well be a good teacher.  but, tell her goodbye.  tell her your moving and then - disappear for a while.  reappear at the next location full of energy to move forward.  you didn't have to say you were 'moving on musically.' 

ok.  then you get this super difficult - sometimes mean - very demanding - and yet - very calm and structured and methodical excellent teacher.  you work very very hard and see lots of progress for 14 hour week practices.  and, you do not challenge the teacher's method.  you shut up about any sort of chang or sandor or fink - and just listen to what your teacher says.  after you try it for three years - you can then decide what you like and what you don't and then - if you want - learn more of another method.  in my experience - to give a method a chance - it has to be ONLY that method and for a long enough period of time to truly test that particular method. 

master classes are a great opportunity to embarrass yourself without truly embarrassing yourself on a public stage.  in a master class - the teacher may stop you (in front of your peers) and ask you to change one or two minor things and play again.  it's a mini-lesson and major performing experience.  you will need to have all your measures numbered so that you do not make your peers wait whilst you count to measure 53 (this is one of my first bad memories).  there are many things you can do to make performance much less of an anxious worry thing - and a beautiful sharing experience.  basically - you get used to embarrassment so it doesn't bother you anymore.  say - the worst happens and you have a memory failure for 50 % of the classes.  by the time you get to march or april - one day - you go in and play perfectly.  that is the day you lost your worries.  after that - everything is downhill.  (or uphill?)   you don't worry about failure.  you've experienced most all the failure you're going to have in playing the piano.  then you start building on successes.

Dear pianistimo,
Are you saying that in order to be a Performance major I need to have an Excellent teacher? Or are you saying everyone needs an excellent teacher? I would agree I need a teacher who can ease my doubts. I am not sure however if she couldn't answer most if not all of my doubts if I asked her I think this could be part of my problem. I said that I didn't think I had made any progress the past two weeks. I did not say that she didn't think I had made progress the past two weeks. She gave me  grade of 3 on a 1-5 scale five being very very very rare, four.5 being very very good, 4 being very good. 3.5 being good, 3 being Ok but not really up to par. I was discouraged at the time when I fist wrote and as a by product said that I had made now progress when the truth of the matter is (at least this is what i'm starting to discover) that I haven't been moving as fast as I would like. I need to as you said become content with small steady progress that in the long run end's up being very good progress even though it does not feel like it at the time. What do you mean "you didn't have to tell her you were moving on musically"? I am sorry if I sound critical that is not my intent. Please do not take what I say to mean I am still not considering switching teachers. I am going to discuss it with my parents and my teacher, look at it in as objective fashon as I can and try to make the best decision I can make. I have a feeling that my teacher is going to run out of things she is able to teach me soon at my level of playing soon anyway. In other words I may stay with this teacher until my old teachers teacher comes avalable. I will also probably switching before collage no matter what happens right now. This is why I need to discuss my progress and how far my teacher can take me. Thank you for your advice it is very much apreciated.

[asyncopated]

Loops, you are most welcome.  It's nice to know something i have to say helps.

I have to say that I agreed with almost everything pianistimo said (which is rare nowadays)!  My experience with teachers seems to be very similar to hers. 

About this statement

ok.  then you get this super difficult - sometimes mean - very demanding - and yet - very calm and structured and methodical excellent teacher.  you work very very hard and see lots of progress for 14 hour week practices.  and, you do not challenge the teacher's method.  you shut up about any sort of chang or sandor or fink - and just listen to what your teacher says.

It's not that I don't challenge my teacher.  It's just that there is such an obvious the gap between my ability and hers that whenever there is a disagreement, I differ to her judgement, which makes sence, rather quicky.   Unlike many posts I read, I have not yet encounted a situation where I have questioned her teaching methods, because I know what she is trying to do and am comfortable and excited by the way things are.  I believe that it will work, simply because of that results it produces in the short term seems to tie in well with our long terms goals. And also, I get a good sense of direction of where I am heading and what I can achieve.  And i almost forgot to mention -- she is demanding enough , in the "correct" way.

[netzow]

Loops, you are most welcome.  It's nice to know something i have to say helps.

I have to say that I agreed with almost everything pianistimo said (which is rare nowadays)!  My experience with teachers seems to be very similar to hers. 

About this statement
It's not that I don't challenge my teacher.  It's just that there is such an obvious the gap between my ability and hers that whenever there is a disagreement, I differ to her judgement, which makes sence, rather quicky.   Unlike many posts I read, I have not yet encounted a situation where I have questioned her teaching methods, because I know what she is trying to do and am comfortable and excited by the way things are.  I believe that it will work, simply because of that results it produces in the short term seems to tie in well with our long terms goals. And also, I get a good sense of direction of where I am heading and what I can achieve.  And i almost forgot to mention -- she is demanding enough , in the "correct" way.

Yes, thank you for your thoughts.
I am still wondering about one thing. I agree with asyncopated and pianistimo that one should not question there teacher's teaching methods and should give the teacher's method a chance. However I do not see where I am thought to be clashing with my teacher. I see my problems to be a me problem not a teacher problem. If one or the other (I guess pianistimo really as she first mentioned it) could get back to me I would appreciate it as I am at a loss as to where you are getting the impression from.
     I have told my teacher what I am doing and she has agreed that this is the right thing to do. I am starting with a very basic plan basically. Practicing every day, limiting myself to sessions of under 20 min. Setting a specific goal for each session and meeting that goal, stopping between each repetition and running through the segment in my head. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Or perhaps you use something similar and would have something to add? Thanks!

[pianowelsh]

To be perfectly honest as a player and as a teacher I have found that Both the intuitive and the counter intuitive have a place in your practice time. Good practice needs to allow room for both to be excersized. If you try to force one over the other your development will become lopsided and ultimately incomplete. 

I usually begin by developing an emotive response to a piece - this can happen in various ways and I listen out for trends/expressed desires in my students.
Then once youve formed an attachment to the piece..it takes carefull WORK (a dirty word for pleasure pianists) and this involves picking the piece apart, examining your physical gestures indetail, studying the score, carefull and thoughtfull repetitions, memorisation etc. BUT!! at the end of every practise session even if it means taking the things slower than you eventually want go through it and just remind yourself of why you love it - force yurself to keep going through it and try to apply as much as you have learnt that day as you possibly can...if things go wrong dont fix them (circle them afterwards - tape recording yourself can be helpful with long pieces) and fixing them and working on things that didnt work is tomorrows job. this way when you sit down to begin your practise session you have mechanical, and artisitc goals already set for you and you know what you need to do (not to make it perfect) but to improove it from yesterday. this way your progress is quite fast and you can actually hear your progress as it develops.

[danny elfboy]

I want just to say that I've never thought it's fair to call the other method "intuitive"
I would call it "popular" and there's nothing intuitive about it
Sometimes I listen a student practicing a piece
She starts and it's okay than after 10 bars or so starts making mistake
So she start from the beginning, the beginning is good, but against after 10 bars everything start collapsing. So again from beginning.
She keeps playing the first part well and against hitting the wrong notes in the same place
For 30 or 40 times
This is stupid! Any kind of intuition or deduction would suggest her that she need to work on the part that doesn't play well not repeating what she has already mastered
There are so many area of lifes where such intuition intuition is applied readily (one example above all is sport)

So I think that students find the subjections of their teacher telling the to never miss a note otherwise start from the beginning (as a sort of punishment) not because they're using an intuitive method. If they were using the intuitive method they would realize they need to work on the chunks that they can't play well not the whole piece

Chang began his book saying something like "I was stunned at how counterintuitive the right methods were" ... I've always thought he was dead wrong with this affirmation and still think so. Just wanted to say ...

[pianowelsh]

yes and No! You need to work on the difficult chunks you cant get BUT you also needs to play through so that the piece as a whole develops and you are not able to just play the first 4 bars perfectly but thats it!  I usually recommend various task oriented strategies for small section indepth work and suggest more reflcetive and explorative methods for working in a whole piece context, ie circular practice to fix an akward half bar.  Hands separate or Melody alone then accompaniment alone for the whole piece or movement OR hands together with a metronome painfully slow but with 0% mistakes. This maximises growth and leads to a more organic and satisfying performance and greater sense of student achievement.

[counterpoint]

She keeps playing the first part well and against hitting the wrong notes in the same place
For 30 or 40 times
This is stupid!

I fully agree. That's stupid.
And most of the piano students do it this way!

There is some belief, that the playing will get better the more often they will play it.
But the opposite is right. The more often they play the piece wrong, the more faultily it gets. A wrong note played once does no harm. A wrong note played 10 times in consequence is a catastrophe! They are really training to play bad while thinking "it's wrong, I must play it more often!"