Your first experience with atonality

[pies]

Which piece(s) popped your atonality cherry?
Mine: Biret playing Ligeti's Desordre. Not the best recording but good enough for me to fall in love with atonality.

[jre58591]

im not exactly sure. it was ages ago. i think it was when i first heard some music by schoenberg, but i dont remember the piece.

[ted]

A recording of Noel Lee playing the Ives first piano sonata opened my ears to atonal sounds in piano music, I think, although Ives is always a special case, and the extent to which his piano pieces are really atonal in any fundamental sense is debatable.

[ilikepie]

Shostakovich Three Fantastic Dances
I will start learning Prokofiev Sonata no.2 in a few weeks time.

[jre58591]

Shostakovich Three Fantastic Dances
I will start learning Prokofiev Sonata no.2 in a few weeks time.

those pieces are clearly not atonal. they may sound kinda "weird" at times, but the tonic is always defined.

[pita bread]

RITE OF SPRING, biatch.

[mephisto]

Scriabin's 5th piano sonata, well maybe not a-tonal, but not tonal in the traditional sense. I loved it right away. Same with Debussy.

Then I heard Ornstein's Suicide in and Airplain and Ligeti and Messiaen. Schoenberg just didn't sound very weird too me when I first heard his music(wich is atonal in the correct way).

[dnephi]

Bartok Piano Trio.  Sounded like vomit ;(. 

I really don't like it.  I can respect it, but it can never take the place of what I define as tonality.

[stormx]

Mi first (and only) experience with atonality was:

A. Webern "Variations" Op.27, played by M. Pollini.

Everytime i play this CD from now on, i have to skip those tracks. I really cannot stand this piece. That also explains why i did not feel like trying others atonal composers...

[mephisto]

Is that the cd with Boulez 2nd sonata? Can you listen to that!?

[stormx]

Is that the cd with Boulez 2nd sonata? Can you listen to that!?

No.
It is a double CD from the "Greatest pianists from XX century" series. It does not include the Boulez Sonata.
It does include pretty music indeed: a Schumann sonata, a Chopin scherzo, some Schubert and Stravinsky Petroushka, as far as i remember)

[gymnopedist]

Webern - satz für streichtrio op. posth. loved it right from the start.

[quantum]

Might be some late Scriabin.  Maybe the Preludes Op 74.

Boulez 1st Sonata.

I thought the Rite of Spring was pretty darn weird when I first heard it.  Now I love it.

Messiaen Vingt Regards, I felt was too long and way over my head.  But after repeated listening it is now one of my favourite 20th c works. 

My first experience with Finnissy was a total surprise.  For a long time I had been doing improvisations similar to his style, thinking such music was off the wall, I and would never play such things for other people.  Then I found out someone actually wrote music in a similar manner.  I fell in love with his music on first hearing. 

[ilikepie]

those pieces are clearly not atonal. they may sound kinda "weird" at times, but the tonic is always defined.

sorry :/ I should have slept instead of typing this. Yes, They are in a way tonal. Once again, sorry.

[jre58591]

Mi first (and only) experience with atonality was:

A. Webern "Variations" Op.27, played by M. Pollini.

Everytime i play this CD from now on, i have to skip those tracks. I really cannot stand this piece. That also explains why i did not feel like trying others atonal composers...

you shouldnt judge atonality on that piece alone. there is soooo much more out there. and serialism isnt the only vehicle for atonal composition. ill be honest. serialism isnt my favorite, but i love atonal music.

[stormx]

you shouldnt judge atonality on that piece alone. there is soooo much more out there. and serialism isnt the only vehicle for atonal composition. ill be honest. serialism isnt my favorite, but i love atonal music.

You are right. But i have listened to others avant-garde music composers, like music by Berio or Nono, and i found their music just awful (not piano stuff, tough).

What do you suggest as a first (and as much ears-friendly as possible) approach to atonal music?

[jre58591]

You are right. But i have listened to others avant-garde music composers, like music by Berio or Nono, and i found their music just awful (not piano stuff, tough).

What do you suggest as a first (and as much ears-friendly as possible) approach to atonal music?

berio and nono are definitely not the place to start. and btw, avant-garde and atonal are nolt the same. berio and nono are more of post-serialist composers, which is the best way i can put them. a good avant-garde composer that comes to mind is rzewki. anyways, one good composer to start with is liebermann. he isnt exactly atonal but he does go into that territory for some pieces. also, scriabin's final sonatas are good to start with also. these are just the first things that came to mind. perhaps someone else can help. i dont want to suggest anything too "extreme" at the moment.

[burstroman]

John Cage's 4'33".

[stormx]

John Cage's 4'33".

I love Circus, but to watch clowns i prefer "Cirque du Soleil"

[counterpoint]

John Cage's 4'33".

Cage's 4'33''  is atonal ??

I always thought it is pure C Major (with the second movement in Db Minor)

[mikey6]

Bartok Piano Trio.  Sounded like vomit ;(. 

There's a Bartok piano trio? Or do you mean 'contrasts'?

Me thinks 'survivor from warsaw' was my first atonal experience, or maybe no.11 from vingt regards - don't mind the Schoenberg (it's a horrible piece - as in it's background), but I don't the Messiaen - maybe I need to listen to them again. 
Anyone heard Aimard's rec? Supposed to be betetr than Loriod's!

[jre58591]

Me thinks 'survivor from warsaw' was my first atonal experience, or maybe no.11 from vingt regards - don't mind the Schoenberg (it's a horrible piece - as in it's background), but I don't the Messiaen - maybe I need to listen to them again. 
Anyone heard Aimard's rec? Supposed to be betetr than Loriod's!

aimard's rec is a bit better than loriod's, but osborne's, to date, is the best rec i have of the vingt regards, please give messiaen another chance, for he is one of the best contemporary composers. also, i think a survivor from warsaw is a really powerful piece. you shouldnt listen to  it for its musicality, but rather the verbal meaning behind it and the story that is told. im pretty much fascinated with all narrated pieces, for they all have a meaning behind them, no matter how "bad" the music may sound.

[ahinton]

aimard's rec is a bit better than loriod's, but osborne's, to date, is the best rec i have of the vingt regards, please give messiaen another chance, for he is one of the best contemporary composers. also, i think a survivor from warsaw is a really powerful piece. you shouldnt listen to  it for its musicality, but rather the verbal meaning behind it and the story that is told. im pretty much fascinated with all narrated pieces, for they all have a meaning behind them, no matter how "bad" the music may sound.

Anyone here heard Hatto's? - not only recently released but also recorded within the pas year, i believe (i.e. just a few months before her death).

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

theory teacher in college used to compose pieces for my piano teacher to play at recital.  the composer/theory teacher's name was george belden.  it impressed me only then - because i could see the interaction between composer/pianist.  and, sometimes inside jokes or impressions of this or that that meant something personal in such impersonal music.

also, not to copy - but to create new ideas.  new music symbols (to explain or write out for pianists interpretation).  to fully be in charge of the situation.  almost as if the composer has a hand around the pianists neck and only lets them down from the ceiling when the piece is played correctly.

and, yet - where would pianists be in expressing their highest pinnacles of memorization finesse except with newer music.  i tend to see ives as one of my loves, too, as ted does.  he expresses the same appreciation for tonality as poulenc - by remaining IN keys - whilst totally avoiding the tonic and usually replacing the tonic with somekind of emphasis elsewhere.  (i hope i am correct on this).  he never really changed the 12 note structure of chromaticism - to a  limit of 10 notes or 8 or 5 did he?

now, what i dislike is limitations.  to be limited to a tone row for instance.  though it may include all twelve notes - it is so 'flat,' imo, to have to be so rigid in ones' composition style as to only follow tone rows.  i never much liked webern either.  he had this horrible opera - and the first time i heard it - i realized i would never like women haters such as he.

[ahinton]

i tend to see ives as one of my loves, too, as ted does.  he expresses the same appreciation for tonality as poulenc - by remaining IN keys - whilst totally avoiding the tonic and usually replacing the tonic with somekind of emphasis elsewhere.  (i hope i am correct on this).  he never really changed the 12 note structure of chromaticism - to a  limit of 10 notes or 8 or 5 did he?
No.

now, what i dislike is limitations.  to be limited to a tone row for instance.  though it may include all twelve notes - it is so 'flat,' imo, to have to be so rigid in ones' composition style as to only follow tone rows.

If one uses 12-note or any other kinds of serial processes without imagination, so that the processes become more important than what one is trying to say, then it does indeed manifest itself as a "limitation" and, as such, is usually unwelcome. It does not necessarily follow, however, that such things have to be constraints; it depends on the composer, really...

i never much liked webern either.  he had this horrible opera - and the first time i heard it - i realized i would never like women haters such as he.

Er - what? What ARE you talking about?!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

atonality doesn't have to be a jarring experience.  it can be gentle.

[jakev2.0]

I think it's time I finally shared my experience.

It was my best friend's 18th birthday bash. It was a fairly small, intimate group of friends - we all knew each other pretty well.  We were sitting around in a circle, listening to some Schubert songs and having a pretty good time.  As the night progressed, things got more serious. After the Schubert came some Brahms, then some Wagner... (some of our friends left at this point)... before we knew it we were listening to Debussy and Ravel.  Then at around 1 in the morning when only about half a dozen of us were left at the party, this girl pulled a CD outta her bag. She said: "Dude, wanna try some S with me". I said: "uhh what's that?". She giggled, then said: "Schoenberg." I was taken aback "No way! I've done some Scriabin, but I won't go any further than Sonata 5!". She insisted. Before I knew it, I was being saturated with the second Viennese school and serialist/atonalists. There was  Berg, Weber, Schoenberg....I think I even heard some Stockhausen when all was said and done. I never was the same again. Next time someone offers you some 'S', remember my story, and think twice.

[Mozartian]

After the Schubert came some Brahms, then some Wagner... (some of our friends left at this point)...

LOL

Emm my first experience was with Bartok.... when I was... really young, lol. It made me very unhappy.

[pianistimo]

he's not THAT bad, is he?  now that you mention it - i think i played the suite opus 14 as one of my earliest pieces - but they seemed harmonic somehow - even if they were modal.  folk modes or melodies, right?  i like the rhythmic impetus.  i'd say bartok is fairly gentle. 

[jre58591]

of you think bartók is bad, dont go anywhere near ginastera or xenakis, or even some ligeti.

[thalbergmad]

My first experience was either Berg or Webern, but it was definately played by that strange Canadian who sits on the floor with his legs crossed.

Next it was Xenakis, Finnissey and Barrett, which was hugely funny.

At this stage i decided to stick with the romantics.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

Well I used to listen to Bartok (concert for orchestra and piano concertos) and Stravinsky (Rite of Sping and Firebird) when i was 13. I loved the Bartok concertos. While others were dancing to disco music, I was dancing to Bartok piano concerto no. 1 in my room But that was not really atonal music. So i think the first really atonal music I've heard at a concert with two pianos: Boulez and Zimmermann (no, not the pianist, the composer Bernd Aloys). I didn't like it. Then I listened to some Hentze and liked it much more. Boulez and Zimmermann i didn't like because I found their music cold, harsh and brutal. Ligeti is different. When I first heard the continuum for harpsichord I was fascinated. I have played Schönbergs op. 19 and still like it. I have heard many concerts with contemporary music, also many world premieres because Basel (where i live) used to be a Mekka for modern composers. In spite of all these influences I mostly like tonal music. Recently I got more familiar with Messiaen's Vingt Regards and I like to listen to them.