Was Chopin antisemitic?

[stormx]

Source:
MILTON CROSS "Encyclopedia of the great Composers and their music"
Quote:
"Chopin was essentially antisemitic"


Is this true? 

He is one of my favorite composers, and i felt pretty disappointed after reading this. Are there any facts to sustain that claim? What do you think?

[mephisto]

He was, but so was nearly everybody back then. Don't let this change your oppinion on his music, remember that jews like Rubinstein and Horowitz loved his music.

[liszt-essence]

He definitely was.

[pianistimo]

i don't think he knew any jews except possibly any that he heard of in russia.  but, who he really should have been worried about is the germans.  the nuremberg trials made it clear that mr. hess was responsible for -hmm.  let's see - destroying tchaikovsky's house, rimsky-korsakov's house, many valuable art works (using them and books from tolstoy'sTOLSTOY's library as kindling for fire instead of firewood).

as i see it - the idiocy of the thing is that poland was always somewhat fearful of the russians (but i don't think the jewish population was particularly anti-polish - as some probably crossed the border when purges happened)...but when it all came down to it - the germans were the ones that had a 'thing' about culture.  the jews always wanted to preserve it. 

hitler (not the german people) was responsible for a lot of cultural demolishing - because according to him - he could not achieve world domination without doing away with it.  if you want to read about cultural damage, look here:

www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-21-46.htm

i'm not sure about what happened precisely in chopin's day - but i believe a polish music journal writing about chopin's compositions has described it fairly well.  the russians invaded poland and killed off some of chopin's family (if not all) and destroyed everything that he loved.  these wars between countries seem almost inevitably to destroy the culture, also, of the people's invaded.  this causes grief for many many years  - as some is lost and much destroyed that is irreplaceable. 

www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/PMJ/issues.html  forget which ones tell the most about chopin's life - but if you search, you'll find some accurate ones.
  ok. click 'archives' at the left.  then click on 2 no. 1-2 (1999) and then scroll down to the second article entitled 'alienation and powerlessness:  adam mickiewiczs ballady and chopin's ballades.'  this article expresses many things chopin endured in his young life.

[mephisto]

Pianistimo you talk too much crap. Chopin knew Moscheles and he was a jew, and Chopin talk a lot of trash about him. Rimsky Korsakow and Tchaikovsky were hardly born;

Tchaikovsky was 9 when Chopin died and Korsakov was 5.

[pianistimo]

i'm talking about war, mephisto.  i'm talking why chopin was angry.  he wasn't angry at jews, per se.  he was angry at the world situation.  not much different than scape-goats today or the things that happened to the jews after chopin was dead.

there are lots of similarities.  chopin was self-exiled the jews were exiled.  that is what the article about the neuremburg trials is about - though the trials were about jews later and not chopin - it shows how a culture can be destroyed.  they (jews in his own country that were way before the holocaust - but still exiled from russia) reminded him too much of the pain that was in his own life.  he thought he should be above it- but nobody is in war.

chopin related to the poems of mickiwicz (sp?) because he was also a pole and knew exactly what had happened to their hometowns.  chopin and m. were close and chopin related to him because he understood the pain.  try reading just the polish journal article and you'll see it's not crap.

ps many people are antisemitic but i don't think chopin was overtly.  i think he was actually quite a shy person.  where is the quote of chopin against mocheles?

[pianowolfi]

He definitely was.

Can you go more in detail? Because this is a question I have already for a long time long and I never found an answer. I would be interested in which sources you are referring to.

[Waldszenen]

In short, virtually all of Europe at this time was not only anti-Semitic but xenophobic in general. Alexandre Dumas was insulted and even attacked all of his life; Wagner is perhaps the most violently racist of all composers from this period.

It should come as no surprise that Chopin was anti-Semitic; after all, it was common. Ironically, he knew and admired Charles-Valentin Alkan, who was very much a Jew, reading the Talmud and so on.

[ahinton]

In short, virtually all of Europe at this time was not only anti-Semitic but xenophobic in general. Alexandre Dumas was insulted and even attacked all of his life; Wagner is perhaps the most violently racist of all composers from this period.

It should come as no surprise that Chopin was anti-Semitic; after all, it was common. Ironically, he knew and admired Charles-Valentin Alkan, who was very much a Jew, reading the Talmud and so on.

This is a fine and well-balanced answer. Within - and allowing for - the parameters that you describe here, I am not convinced that there is any credible evidence that Chopin went out of his way to be anti-Semitic and to express anti-Semitic sentiments in the way and to the extent, for example, that Wagner did in approximately the same era. Although no one has yet cited sources for such assertions, I suspect that the writings of one Dr David C F Wright may not be too far from this area...

Best,

Alistair

[stormx]

This is a fine and well-balanced answer. Within - and allowing for - the parameters that you describe here, I am not convinced that there is any credible evidence that Chopin went out of his way to be anti-Semitic and to express anti-Semitic sentiments in the way and to the extent, for example, that Wagner did in approximately the same era. Although no one has yet cited sources for such assertions, I suspect that the writings of one Dr David C F Wright may not be too far from this area...

Best,

Alistair

Alistair, if you see my initial post, you will find one source claming Chopin antisemitism:
Milton Cross and David Ewen, in their 3 volume work titled "Encyclopedia of the great Composers and their music".

I must admit, tough, that they do not give a single objetive proof to back their statement.

[zheer]

Source:

Quote:
"Chopin was essentially antisemitic"

  O god i will never know why the jews have been so wronged , i just dont get it.

   I doubt that Chopin was antisemitic, i think he was above such crap.

[ahinton]

Alistair, if you see my initial post, you will find one source claming Chopin antisemitism:
Milton Cross and David Ewen, in their 3 volume work titled "Encyclopedia of the great Composers and their music".

I must admit, tough, that they do not give a single objetive proof to back their statement.

I had seen your initial post and must accordingly apologise for the lack of sufficient clarity in my response; what I meant to write and should have written was:
"Although no one has yet cited sources supporting such assertions, I suspect that the writings of one Dr David C F Wright may not be too far from this area..."

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I doubt that Chopin was antisemitic, i think he was above such crap.

Evidence that he was so certainly does not appear in his music - but then there's not exactly a lot of evidence of Wagner's anti-Semitism in Tristan und Isolde, either...

Best,

Alistair

[arensky]

Just found this in one of his letters, telling about his meeting with a banker named Geymuller in Vienna. The letter tells how he met Geymuller and the banker told him it was not worth his while to play in Vienna since he had no connections and nothing can be accomplished in Vienna without them. Chopin then tells Geymuller that he has not yet had time to meet the important people he has letters of introduction to from Warsaw. He then write "You should have seen his face at this moment! I left with apologies for having interrupted him in his business. Just wait, you J[ew] d[ogs?]!"

The parentheses are how this appears in the biography, "Chopin" by George Marek, Harper & Row 1978, pp. 40-41. Don't know if this is conjecture or what. Right after this quote Marek writes "The Jews were always at fault".

This short biography is not the most scholarly, so those interested in this topic should consult a more exhaustive and scholarly book.

[zheer]

his meeting with a banker named Geymuller in Vienna.

  Hmmmmmmmmm of all the composers i must say Chopin seems to be the one that would not be antisemitic, shock horror.

[cmg]

As others have said, all unenlightened Europeans in the 19th century were anti-semitic and xenophobic. 

Much of the insane prejudice against Jews was tied to their great talent to assimiliate into other cultures and (ironically enough) master the arts in those cultures, and then evolve into great artists.  Wagner's chief opposition to them stemmed from this.  As you all know, nationalism in everything was the great European ambition, and Wagner, first and foremost, led the way in this.  He wanted a distinctive German music and felt he had achieved that with this music dramas.  He often cited Mendelssohn as an example of everything he was trying to abolish in his compositions, namely, an "internationalist style" devoid of any nationalistic tendencies or traits.  Ironically, Wagner entrusted the premieres of almost all of his works to the great Jewish conductors of his time.

As to Chopin, well, to be honest, I had never heard him charged with anti-semitism before, but, as a European of that time, it sounds logical (and disgustingly stupid).  An unfortunate aspect of Polish culture, well-documented, is its institutionalized anti-semitism.  Again, a nationalistic trait, and a very reprehensible one at that.

The Jews in Europe -- thanks to the Roman Catholic Church -- were never forgiven for their alleged betrayal and murder of Jesus Christ.  Another depressing legacy of that ancient and venerable institution and the root cause of all resulting anti-semitism.

[ahinton]

As to Chopin, well, to be honest, I had never heard him charged with anti-semitism before, but, as a European of that time, it sounds logical (and disgustingly stupid).  An unfortunate aspect of Polish culture, well-documented, is its institutionalized anti-semitism.  Again, a nationalistic trait, and a very reprehensible one at that.

You make a lot of valid points in your post, most of which I have not quoted here because they seem to me to require no further comment. The above one which I do quote simply prompts me to add that, notwithstanding the validity of your remark about Polish anti-Semitism during Chopin's lifetime, it is worth remembering that Chopin spent almost all of his mature years in France rather than in his native land.

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

Thank you for your response.  You are, of course, correct.  My only response, regarding Chopin's heritage, is to parapharse Wordsworth:  "The child is the father of the man. . . As the twig is bent, the tree's inclined."

Wordsworth grasped the nature of "conditioned intelligence," the Buddhist term for all information individuals erroneously accept as "truth," without putting such statements to the test of logic.  Anti-semitism and other racist notions fall under this category.  Religions and nationalism are the greatest sources for propagating these poisons.  Humans are commonly subjected to such "brain-washing" as children, as Chopin must have been, and such spurious teachings, unfortunately, are tenacious and linger on into adulthood.

Conditioned intelligence, in my opinion, is the tragedy of human existence. 

[bflatminor24]

Chopin wasn't anti-semitic. He was close friends with Charles-Valentin Alkan. How anti-semitic could he be? Unless his writing is anti-semitic, it sounds like speculation that he was.

Lots of know-it-alls on this forum. I guess Google makes everyone a genius, right?

[ahinton]

Chopin wasn't anti-semitic. He was close friends with Charles-Valentin Alkan. How anti-semitic could he be? Unless his writing is anti-semitic, it sounds like speculation that he was.

Lots of know-it-alls on this forum. I guess Google makes everyone a genius, right?

And some know-not-enoughs as well, perhaps. To be fair, this thread has included some very valid and relevant points but, as I pointed out earlier, no one has yet provided any valid evidence to support the notion that Chopin was anti-Semitic. His friendship with Alkan has already been mentioned earlier, but it clearly needs repeating now for a sense of balance, so I appreciate your having done this.

We know, for example, that Wagner actually did publish some writings that were overtly anti-Semitic and that he made no secret of his anti-Semitism; where do we find such writings from Chopin?

Even the early conditioning idea - which is certainly worthy of a mention - would have to be considered in more detail, with evidence from first-hand accounts of Chopin's childhood, for it to be accepted here as a contribution to evidence for anything more than the "speculation" referred to above.

This thread has spun quite a few posts without submission of any such evidence. Let he who is without a lack of evidence cast the first stone - or let us conclude that there is no evidence to support a claim for Chopin's anti-Semitism and wrap the thread up.

Best,

Alistair

[bflatminor24]

Alistair, are you saying I don't know enough? I've read many biographies of Chopin, and none have mentioned his purported "anti-semitism."

If my statements were ill-founded, why did you agree with them? There is no written evidence that he was anti-semitic (to my knowledge), and he was CLOSE friends with a devout Jew. Sooooooo I don't see any flaws in that assertion. Moving on, who cares?

The real question is, Does Alistair Hinton like classical music? No one will ever know!

[ahinton]

Alistair, are you saying I don't know enough? I've read many biographies of Chopin, and none have mentioned his purported "anti-semitism."

I am saying nothing of the sort! It was not YOUR statements to which I referred - it was those others that raise the subject and write around it but don't acutally come up with a shred of evidence to support a claim that Chopin was anti-Semitic.

If my statements were ill-founded, why did you agree with them?

But I did not write - nor do I believe - that your statements were, or are, ill-founded; does that answer your question?

There is no written evidence that he was anti-semitic (to my knowledge), and he was CLOSE friends with a devout Jew. Sooooooo I don't see any flaws in that assertion.

Exactly. As you can hopefully now see, I am with you entirely on this one. Like you, I would say that "there is no written evidence that he was anti-semitic" and add, as you do, "to my knowledge"; the point is that neither of us has ever read or heard of any - nor, it would so far seem - has anyone else that has so far contributed to this thread. So far, all facts and lack of facts. As to opinions, I would think it highly unlikely that he ever espoused anti-Semitism; nothing that I have ever read about Chopin the man or Chopin the composer suggests that he would have had any truck with such things.

Moving on, who cares?

Indeed! - which is why I suggested that, if reliable and incontrovertible evidence cannot be submitted in support of Chopin's anti-Semitism, it would be better to accept that none exists or has come to light and that the thread accordingly be wrapped up.

The real question is, Does Alistair Hinton like classical music? No one will ever know!

That's not a "real "question at all! It's also got nothing to do with the thread topic. It would therefore seem that it does not call for a "real" answer - so one may suppose that this will spare me from having to write another fugal exposition...

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

Just for the record, my posts were only in support of the argument that HAD Chopin been anti-semitic, there is a logical explanation for this flawed thinking, given his time in history and country of birth.

I agree there is no evidence that he was, and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by assuming I was arguing in support of the allegation.  Especially Chopin!!

[bflatminor24]

Alistair, I was joking, of course that wasn't a real question. I was mocking the pervasive feeling of seriosity on this thread by posing a completely ridiculous question. Eveyone who reads piano fora likes classical music.

By the way, sir Alistair, have you seen the new Marc-Andre Hamelin DVD? I just ordered it from Hyperion (expedited shipping) and it blew me away.

Ronald Stevenson is my hero. GOOOOO SCOTLAND!

[ahinton]

Alistair, I was joking, of course that wasn't a real question. I was mocking the pervasive feeling of seriosity on this thread by posing a completely ridiculous question. Eveyone who reads piano fora likes classical music.

I suspected as much but, since other forum members might not have done so, I thought I'd better answer as I did!

By the way, sir Alistair, have you seen the new Marc-Andre Hamelin DVD? I just ordered it from Hyperion (expedited shipping) and it blew me away.

I'm not "Sir" Alistair, you know! No, I know, of course, about that DVD but don't yet have a copy.

Ronald Stevenson is my hero. GOOOOO SCOTLAND!

Good for you! And thanks for your endorsement of his - and my - native land!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Just for the record, my posts were only in support of the argument that HAD Chopin been anti-semitic, there is a logical explanation for this flawed thinking, given his time in history and country of birth.

I agree there is no evidence that he was, and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by assuming I was arguing in support of the allegation.  Especially Chopin!!

I am sure of two things here - the first is that I do not have to forgive you and the second is that I'm sure Chopin - who was not averse to quite a dry sense of humour when it suited him - would understand and probably have had a quiet laugh about it all!...

Best,

Alistair

[m]

Chopin wasn't anti-semitic. He was close friends with Charles-Valentin Alkan. How anti-semitic could he be? Unless his writing is anti-semitic, it sounds like speculation that he was.

The fact that Alkan was Chopin's close friend doesn't prove either--whether Chopin was or was not anti-semitic.
For example, it is a well known fact Cortot was anti-semitic. He however had Jewish friends and even students.
Furthermore, I knew quite a few Jews who were anti-semitic.

In literature I saw a few mentions of Chopin making anti-semitic remarks. I have no idea in what context they were made and how well those facts are grounded.

[jakev2.0]

Well, would Alkan - a devout Jew - really have been friends with Chopin were Chopin a true anti-semite? Would they have been next door neighbors, played concerts together, watched the actor Arnal together, and written favorably of the other? Would Chopin have left Alkan his pupils on his deathbed were the latter considered a mere "dirty Jew"? 

I really don't think Chopin was a true anti-semite. He had to have been above that, or I'd like to believe so. I think that at most Chopin's anti-antisemitism was a superficial social affectation.

[liszt-essence]

I have read some biographies on Chopin..

And they contained letters with solid proof in them that Chopin was an anti-semetic.

As were indeed, many people in those days which does not make Chopin in that regard any less idiotic and ignorant just because more people were.

I love Chopin's music, I listen to it every day. But I can not deny the facts. And I think nobody should..

We all have our faults and errors.

If there's need for it, I will look up some quotes in the books that I have at my home.

[pestudent]

The book "Chopin's Letters" contain antisemitic references directed mainly at publishers with whom he was dealing and who he feared would try to cheat him. When they were were English, German, etc. he used anti-anglo, anti-teutonic, etc. remarks.  In some letters he refers to his close friend Franz Liszt as "that Hungarian" in what would be considered a derogatory way today.

If you read those letters you'll find that he also admired people who were Jewish.

It's hard to put modern labels on people from other eras.  Please understand that toleration of other religions has increased dramatically in the western world only since World War II. Entirely new definitions of the word "toleration" are politically correct today. When John Kennedy was nominated for president in 1960 he had something of an uphill battle because many Americans would not vote for a Catholic because they suspected a potential foreign allegiance to the Pope in Rome.

[ridr27]

Me at the piano
 https://www.youtube.com/user/reehz

I watched your video and enjoyed!

ridr27

[ramibarniv]

Pianistimo you talk too much crap. Chopin knew Moscheles and he was a jew, and Chopin talk a lot of trash about him. Rimsky Korsakow and Tchaikovsky were hardly born;

Tchaikovsky was 9 when Chopin died and Korsakov was 5.

Chopin also knew and was a friend of the Jewish composer Alkan.
Even though Chopin was antisemitic, I, who's Jewish, play a lot of him.
You can see/hear some here: https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
And also live at my concert Feb 24 in the DC area.

Best wishes,
Rami
rrpcrrpc@yahoo.com
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[webern78]

Why do people simply assume that anti-semite = nazi?

Just because you hate a certain group of people doesn't make you a mass murderer *** head. Even Wagner had several jewish friends and would have never advocated what Hitler did a century later. 

[pianowelsh]

Goodness me.  I believe in our very PC generation we have gone may with words like antesemitic, racist, sexist, ageist etcetc. If someone was to come and scrutinise every piece of paperwork you ever wrote and every conversation you had, not to mention every statement you made when you were angry or hurt and upset. Ehat do you think the world would say of you and would they be justified in branding you a racist, sexist, ageist bigot and reject everything youd ever achieved and worked for. Really such an immature attitude. We are people we have passions..good and bad, we say things we mean we say stupid things we dont mean.. we are not good at guarding our own tongues.  I dont think that a few odd sentences by Chopin can be taken as proof that he was antisemitic. When he was shunned, offended, mistreated, dissapointed..he was probably anti - a whole lot of things.  Give the guy a break.  He was without doubt one of the greatest composers for our instrument of all time. He endured a life which at times was hard and painfull. His letters reflect that as im sure would our own memoirs if people would be bothered to take note of them. There is no accounts that I know of to suggest that Chopin would kick jewish immegrants in the street or spit on them in public or refuse to associate with them in polite society etc so I think the allegations are deeply over dramatized. It is true that at the time ther was a lot of antisemitic feeling throughout europe when the kind of events I mentioned above would have formed part of the daily experience for many less fortunate jews. That Chopins letters refer to those specific {jews} as dogs is actaully not that staggering in terms of the attidues of many of his contemporaries. Im not saying that this kind of behavious is something which can/must be excused. Not atall but as it has been pointed out on numerous occasions his freindships with other jewish families strongly suggests this was not his commonly felt perception of all jewish people.

[moi_not_toi]

Evidence that he was so certainly does not appear in his music - but then there's not exactly a lot of evidence of Wagner's anti-Semitism in Tristan und Isolde, either...

Best,

Alistair

Honestly, I didn't see a lot of it in his Ring Cycle, either, but everyone says there was.

Not to mention, Wagner was an A**, so it's no surprise that he hated jewish people. They had money, he had to beg, why wouldn't he! I know that may seem anti, but I don't mean it that way. It's USUALLY true, from what I've experienced.

[jas]

I don't believe he was any more anti-Semitic than anyone else at the time. The fact is that Chopin expected a lot of people, friends and acquaintances alike. Getting money out of publishers, many of whom were Jewish, could be difficult, and he tended to use sweeping generalisations about Jews in his correspondences with friends when talking about it. Not so much anti-Semitic as a bit catty. It's funny how he had the ability to be catty and yet to make people love him. As Tad Szulc said, there was something feline about Chopin.

[jakev2.0]

Why do people simply assume that anti-semite = nazi?

Just because you hate a certain group of people doesn't make you a mass murderer *** head. Even Wagner had several jewish friends and would have never advocated what Hitler did a century later. 

I agree fully with this.

[pianowelsh]

Yes Id like to pick up on the comment about Chopin's 'felineesque' character. He wasnt the only composer or indeed person to have such a trait. Cats can be choosey, moody and the KNOW how to get what they want - by whatever means. Now while im not suggesting Chopin was a totally capriccious cad. We do know that he could be catty and he was quite shrewd and didnt suffer fools gladly.  This applied to anyone he came across (normally males it has to be said) not just jewish people.