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Need help with 2 against 3 (Read 10314 times)

Offline ccnokes

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Need help with 2 against 3
« on: November 23, 2006, 08:38:37 PM »
I'm learning Debussy's Arabesque 1 and am having a hard time with the triplet phrases in the right hand over the eights in the left hand.  I can't make them even.  I've tried practicing them really slow but that doesn't help.

Please help - if I can't even practice them effectively I'm not sure if I can even do it. Any suggestions, techniques?
"Maybe there's something more to life than being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking." --Zoolander

piano sheet music of Arabesque


Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 09:19:31 PM »
The second normal eighth note should be placed exactly in the middle between triplet eighths 2 and 3. Most people play the last triplet note too late when they start to practise 2 against 3.

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 12:10:49 AM »
The problem in the Arabesque #1 is, that the triplets of the right hand go

low high low   high low high

so one accent is on the lower note, the next on the higher note in the right hand

and now you have to set the 8th of the left hand against that. That can get quite tricky.

I don't think, it works very well, if you concentrate too much on preciseness.
Just relax and let your hands swing over the keys. Easy does it  :D
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline le_poete_mourant

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 06:35:12 PM »
my teacher showed me how to practice two against three for the last movement of Beethoven's first sonata.  the basic principles are:

1) the longest gap between triplets should be between the first and second triplet (it should feel like you are pausing longer although you aren't really.. but hesitate slightly)
2) practice slowly; the second eighth note should come immediately after the second triplet.  although mathematically, this is incorrect, it will work out fine when you play it at regular tempo.
3) for practice also try to put an accent on your second and third triplets rather than your first.  this may help you with aligning the contrasting beats. 
"It is difficult to get news from poems, but men die miserably every day from lack of what is found there."

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Offline quantum

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 10:11:57 PM »
Say this:
"Nice cup of tea"

Thats the rhythm.

Quarter, Eighth, Eighth, Quarter


Apply rhythm to this coordination:
RH 3, LH 2

Together, R, L, R

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline invictious

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #5 on: November 25, 2006, 11:43:54 AM »
The search function may aid you here

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2655.0.html

I think of it as

Well since i am such a sloppy player, I just get really familiar with both hands, then I just let it flow.

I am ambidextrous too, so that might be much easier :D
Bach - Partita No.2
Scriabin - Etude 8/12
Debussy - L'isle Joyeuse
Liszt - Un Sospiro

Goal:
Prokofiev - Toccata

>LISTEN<

Offline ccnokes

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 04:00:07 AM »
Thank you all for your help...I'll try to utilize your techniques.  Thus far I've had limited success with just totally blocking out what I hear in the left and focusing on smooth even movements through the passage on the right.  My teacher says I'm getting better and just need to let go and says that it will eventually click.  Weird problem is I can only have that process work at a fast tempo.....doing it slow seems to cause too much hesitation with the placement of the notes and then I mess up.

Thanks again all.
"Maybe there's something more to life than being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking." --Zoolander

Offline pianalex

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 07:50:46 AM »
 Also lots of practice hs at faster than final tempo. count crotchets, alternate hands.  put hands together piecemeal, playing on the beat ht, and contuining lh or rh only up to next beat and so on. adhere to same fingering.  i agree that the varying up down /down up figure of rh complicates the passage somewhat, but it will yield to practice!

Offline mad_max2024

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 11:54:08 PM »
Weird problem is I can only have that process work at a fast tempo.....doing it slow seems to cause too much hesitation with the placement of the notes and then I mess up.

That's bad, if you can't do it slowly then you are not controlling it.
At first I had the same problem in Rach's study op39/5
The way I go in these situations is dividing the time in whatever spaces necessary (6 in this case) and playing the notes in the appropriate places VERY VERY slowly till I get used to the rythm.
After playing it for a while you get used to it and it starts to click
1-2-3-4-5-6-1
1---2---3----1
1-----2------1
The first triplet goes on one then the second on 3 then comes the normal on 4, another triplet on 5 and they come together on the next 1
Just tap 6 even times with your foot and play them in those places...
Like pianowolfi said, the normal eigth note goes exactly between the second and third triplet
It's hard to explain here so I hope I wasn't too confusing.

And don't worry, 2 over 3 and 3 over 4 is hard to play for everyone at first, but when you get it right, you get it right. It's like riding a bicicle...
I am perfectly normal, it is everyone else who is strange.

Offline ichiru

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 06:59:25 PM »
play with metronome!! Play separate hand at first with it and then try to combine it. It's hard at first, but once you get the feel, it's actually very easy. The key is not thinking about it too much, but rather you have to feel it...

Offline jozart

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 07:40:59 PM »
Hi ccnokes,
You could practice scales this way. LH triplets - RH eight notes. Keep the LH automatic and think about the RH. What do you think?
jozart
Joe Gargiulo

Offline nenematos

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 03:49:20 AM »
Hello, I've read your post and as a piano teacher I advise you to study both hands separately feeling the tempo and making them very independent then you can try to play them together.
Maria Matos

Offline frida1

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 08:53:25 PM »
I agree with the last poster.  Hands separately, with the metronome.  Your hands ideally should be completely independent of each other.  Eventually, you may be able to loosen up the rhythm in the right hand a little while keeping the left hand very even.

Trying to precisely fit the triplets into the the rhythm of the eighth notes in the left hand  will never allow the music to flow naturally.

Offline giannalinda

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Re: Need help with 2 against 3
«Reply #13 on: December 24, 2008, 04:06:30 PM »
Hi my name is Gianna and my teacher just told me to learn dis song for an audition to a piano camp called "Music at Menlo" I don't know if any of you have ever heard of it before, and I agree with you that the 2 against 3 is really hard. I do not really know of any way to fix it if it  doesn't help to go slower. I would find a REALLY slow recording of it, not dis recording, but on Youtube or something, and listen to that part over and over again. I had a really hard time doing that, but it helped me to go slow, so........Idk,Im 11 years old, so idk. just listen to the recordings, or ask your teacher to play it for you real slow.
Hope dis helps.
From Gianna
All the old members here I kno, uve been quite mean lately, even though I apologized so i would like to ask you to please if u dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all. Thank you.