Poll for religious people

[wishful thinker]

Except of course, the Christian Sabbath is Sunday, not Saturday (Sunday being the day that Jesus rose from the dead).

Of course mass is said every day in the Catholic (Roman and Anglican) church, but Sundays (as well as Christmas and Easter and very other days like the Assumption and Alll Saints day) are Holy Days of Obligation - meaning that attendance at mass is compulsory for the faithfull.  In the Roman church there is a Papal dispensation to allow Saturday evening to count as Sunday: many Catholic families actually attend Sunday Mass on Saturday.

But Saturday is not the Sabath in the Christian Church.

Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against the rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day.

[ahinton]

i think that everyone has a right to obtain 'freedom' from the law - if that is their wish.

I wouldn't go that far! Not all laws are stupid or impractical or unjust or unmanageable; even national governments have been known to get thigs right on occasion! But when you use the term "the law" here, I take you to mean (although you do not actually say so) "the law" of your church, or faith, or something else other than national statute.

i am only saying that if i choose to worship on Saturday - what is that to anyone?  it is simply a preference based on the fact that Jesus himself kept the Sabbath holy.  after all, He made the day at creation and in Isaiah and other prophets - there is a blessing for those who keep it.  also, hebrews mentions 'therefore, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.

but, in paul - it mentions a 'freedom' in Christ for non-jews.  now, i am not a jew.  i am irish.  but i choose to be like lydia (in acts, who was a greek) - she met on the sabbath and did not conduct business.  most people conduct business every day of the week.  the Sabbath is a rest day - from business - the entire day.

Again, whilst the time that you devote to formal worship in church is a matter for you and you alone to decide, the notion of the Sabbath as a "rest day" is one that I find not only increasingly antediluvian but also potentially misleading - in both cases due in part to the fact that our lives today are so very different to what they would have been two millennia ago. People's other commitments cannot so easily or consistently be shoehorned into this or that time slot; they no longer work from 9 to 5, Monday to Friday and all the rest of the old routines. Not only that, the idea of a Sabbath on which one attends church as some kind of "rest day" itself strikes me as something of a misnomer, since the effort required to go to, attend and return from church, combined with the mental exercise that one supposedly has while there, seems no more to constitute the kind of thing that one might expect to signify a "day of rest" than there is credibility in the ridiculous, yet oft-heard, statement that "classical music is so relaxing!" No wonder Sorabji made the barb that he did about Mendelssohn and a certain sector of the early Victorian British public when he wrote that "he gave them what they wanted: "Oh Rest in the Lord"! - and if Bach's St Matthew Passion, Chopin's F minor Ballade, Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, Mahler's Sixth and Ninth Symphonies, Varèse's Amériques, Busoni's Toccata, Pettersson's Ninth Symphony and Bernd-Aloys Zimmerman's Die Soldaten are examples of "nice, relaxing classical music" then I'm a prime example of a born-again pentecostalist...

the difference to me, is similar to Christ moving out the money-changers from the temple on the Sabbath.  He wants to be worshipped completely.

But who needs or wants money-changers in the church? - by which I mean who needs or wants financial services personnel actively pursuing their professions in church during services? This, of course, just doesn't happen anyway - or at least  not in any chuch I've ever attended. We're back on those two dilemmas again - (a) the changes in life patterns and expectations over two millennia in different parts of the world and (b) the actual meaning and interpretation of statements across the same time frame. We simply cannot just take literally the matter of the money-changers in a place of worship two thousand years ago and apply it rigidly to contemporary events and expectations.

the jewish way is to worship on the Sabbath - the christian way is to worship every day of the week.  and, yet - both ways are right!  God didn't say he came only to save the jews.  'but that the world through Him might be saved...'

This is correct - so why worry about when individuals attend church? or whether and to what extent the churchgoing public's attendance habits may be seen as compromising the practical concept of the "Sabbath"?

It matters still less to me, of course, since I attend church very rarely and can never participate in Holy Communion in any case; that said, for all that I am an outsider in that context, I am never made to feel like an oboist in a string quartet on such occasions...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Except of course, the Christian Sabbath is Sunday, not Saturday (Sunday being the day that Jesus rose from the dead).

Of course mass is said every day in the Catholic (Roman and Anglican) church, but Sundays (as well as Christmas and Easter and very other days like the Assumption and Alll Saints day) are Holy Days of Obligation - meaning that attendance at mass is compulsory for the faithfull.  In the Roman church there is a Papal dispensation to allow Saturday evening to count as Sunday: many Catholic families actually attend Sunday Mass on Saturday.

But Saturday is not the Sabath in the Christian Church.

Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against the rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day.

Very well said; I couldn't have put it better myself. If fact, I couldn't have put it anything like as well myself!

Best,

Alistair

[term]

dear term,

you assume we are the center of the universe.  if the sun was as old as the Big Bang theory - it would be moving faster and farther away and the moon wouldn't be giving much light to us either.  face it- these theories are theories that are being disproven by the relative constancy of our universe which was created with BOUNDARIES. 

Thats a claim, wheres your proof (for the boundaries)? I dont have a proof for the universe being infinite.
Also, the sun is not as old as the universe (i guess that is what you meant). And as i said, that was just an example, whether we are near a "center" or not is irrelevant.
You also claim that the sun would be moving faster and farther away - why? In other words: You dont know how much the universe expands per time unit (seconds, years) so cant say how far away the sun "should be" after an unknown time (=the age of the sun). (Lets say it is unknown, doesn't matter how old it is)

science is aways trying to make little chinks in the bible. and then blow them out of proportion - but what they don't realize is they cannot corroborate black matter because it is INVISIBLE.  what is it? could it be God Himself?  Does He keep the universe stable?  Does He make the constellations the same as they were 'billions and billions' of years ago.  if they were spreading out (as with other galaxies) we would have a totally new constellation system.

You just claim and give no reasons...why can it only be god? why would we have a new constellation system? The stars are far away, their movement is not visible to our eyes and it takes extremely much time for the stars to move so far that we can observe the difference. That is because of the distance.
I get the impression that you only believe what you see. You seem like you're not interestet to see how these things really work.

but we see the same things as our earliest ancestors.  in babylon they have extremely old astrological stuff that matches our own star formations in the sky - and with regularity they are for 'signs and for seasons.'

in evolution - supposedly everything is changing constantly.  if this were so over 'billions' of years - things would be terribly different in terms of what we find archeologically.

Again, you make claims. Give reasons.
The process of change is simply slow.

but, our sun must have allowed for the current creation - and the ICE AGE was before the SUN. 

and why?

how could we even have the POLAR REGIONs frozen to the mass that they once were - and gradually thawed.  if it were BILLIONS of years - the polar regions would have caused flooding way before now.  although it appears that we will see somewhat how much water God actually used in NOah's flood.

What? 
I do understand the english, but not the sense. This is totally confused. 
Ice and warm ages change from time to time because of the earth's orbit. These changes occur every ~50.000 years. The earth gets gradually hotter or colder and just by some degrees. This has nothing to do with floods. Why billions of years? Oo

[thalbergmad]

all this is really too complicated for my brain

Glad you admitted that and your posts are far too long for me to consider wasting any more time on you. Please stick to your little book.

How do you find the time to write your incredibly long winded epistles?. Just looking at your efforts for today, it must have taken hours.

[penguinlover]

Pianistimo,
   When you were living in California, did you ever attend a Messianic Synagogue?  If so, could you please tell me where it is?  I would love to visit one.  They, of all people, would really understand all the Old Testament symbolism.  It would be very enlightening I think.  I don't get to go to many other types of services since my husband is a pastor, and we have church services both Sunday morning and evening. 

    I am not even going to get in to this discussion, the Bible says not to judge anyone for their choice of a holy day, a Sabbath.  The important thing is that we take one.  Enough said from me.   ta ta

[pianistimo]

it is not my purpose, although i feel goaded sometimes, to argue about what i believe vs. what you believe.  why should we get angry that another person believes differently.  that is why i like pennsylvania.  william penn had the idea that religious tolerance was good.

i happened to find a site about him this morning and was reading through it.  i think thomas jefferson commended him on his 'law making' abilities.  to make them fair for everyone.  there are probably many other sites about william penn - but this one is interesting as it is tied to his home.

www.pennsburymanor.org/PennInPa.html

regarding the ice ages - i've already said - i'm not a scientist so why bother talking to me as though i know something about it other than what i read.  i have not been to the poles.  i do not know what they do when they suddenly switch or what happens every 10,000 years or 50,000 - but there are many CONFLICTING ideas.  the bible probably would prove that dark matter IS God.  He holds the universe together by His power - and as Christians - that's what we believe because the bible says it.  this is hard for you to accept.  that Christians accept some things by faith.  this is why there will ALWAYS be a sort of contention for 'who's got the correct information.'  i think science proves the bible.

[thalbergmad]

Very interesting thing this Sabbath.

I remember reading about the people that used to live on the remote Scottish Island called St Kilda.

They used to survive by harvesting the sea birds that inhabited the cliffs of their small island. In fact their very survival depended on it. The island is notorious for long spells of bad weather, so it was very important that they took avantage of every good day.

Regretfully, one of the visiting preachers imposed the Sabbath upon them and on a Sunday they were not allowed to do any work and had to attend Church 6 times. Therefore, even if the Sabbath was a perfect day, they lost an opportunity to harvest the birds, to which their very survival depended.

How stupid is this religion. Would it really be the will of God to make people suffer so?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

that's what we believe because the bible says it.  this is hard for you to accept. 

What is hard for me to accept is when the Bible does NOT say it.

At the end of the day, it does not matter what information anybody comes up with, you will believe what you wish to believe. I will no longer engage you in debate as i see it is pointless.

But again, i feel you need to read more outside of the Bible. This book that you rely on so much is the most heavily edited book of all time. It has gone through several translations and has many authors. There is little to no evidence that i have seen that any of the Books of the New Testament were written within 100 years of the death of Jesus. When you try to interpret a 2nd Century book with a 21st century brain you are not on firm ground.

Please do not respond to this. Go and irritate someone else.

Thal

[ahinton]

Very interesting thing this Sabbath.

I remember reading about the people that used to live on the remote Scottish Island called St Kilda.

They used to survive by harvesting the sea birds that inhabited the cliffs of their small island. In fact their very survival depended on it. The island is notorious for long spells of bad weather, so it was very important that they took avantage of every good day.

Regretfully, one of the visiting preachers imposed the Sabbath upon them and on a Sunday they were not allowed to do any work and had to attend Church 6 times. Therefore, even if the Sabbath was a perfect day, they lost an opportunity to harvest the birds, to which their very survival depended.

How stupid is this religion. Would it really be the will of God to make people suffer so?

Thal

In my opinion, no - which is why I would respectfully but firmly counter you and suggest not "how stupid is this religion?" but "how stupid was that visiting preacher and how much more stupid still were those members of the congregation who were evidently prepared to allow themselves to be hoodwinked into acceptance of and adherence to this non-indigenous preacher's rubbish?".

Never mind - the Master of our Queen's Music(k) (why do we still persist in having one when the present Queen of more than half a century doesn't even like music[k]?) lives in comparative urbanity on Hoy and is well known for killing and pot-roasting the swans that apparently - and, let's face it, most conveniently - habitually commit suicide on the power lines above his home and then drop to the ground within easy fetching distance of the pot (not that I know for certain for how long Sir Peter non Scott actually hangs those birds before having them dealt with...).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

"how stupid was that visiting preacher and how much more stupid still were those members of the congregation who were evidently prepared to allow themselves to be hoodwinked into acceptance of and adherence to this non-indigenous preacher's rubbish?".

Alistair

Stupid preacher yes. The congregation of simple folk did not stand a chance against the onslaught.

Thal

[pianistimo]

potroasted swans?  alistair - you always do add some kind of 'spark' to things.  i have no idea why people on a remote island would be harvesting birds up in the cliffs - as birds have a tendency to fly away, don't they.  is this some sort of lesson?  good thing you don't give sunday school lessons, thal.  and, i'm wondering exactly what your mother taught you.  no matter.  you're still good looking.  that has to count for something.

wow.  so many topics.  let's see - messianic synagogues in california.  hmm. actually i never had been to one until i moved here and couldn't find a church nearby that kept the sabbath.  i suppose that i could have made it easy on myself and gone to the corner sunday keeping church (which is 1/2 mile away) - but i feel ill at ease in churches with bells.  this is a terrible confession.  i just don't like church bells.  there is nothing - absolutely nothing wrong with church bells.  in fact, i sort of like to hear them rung from a distance.  but up close -i feel claustrophobic. 

now, in the messianic groups - they keep music to a soft minimum with a little chanting and carrying on.  if you don't know hebrew - you just mumble and it sort of makes you fit in.  many times i have mispronounced words - but i have learned a smattering of hebrew.  enough to say 'yaweh' and know it means God.  but, you cannot fathom the great chasm between growing up in a 'traditional' (and yet untraditional ) sabbath keeping church and a messianic synagogue. the first time i went - i opened the liturgy book front to back.  i kept scanning pages wondering what was going on - and where everybody was.  turns out you start from back to front.  now, whoever thought of that?  maybe we're the ones that got it backwards, who knows! if it were me with the scrolls - i'd just read the middle over and over so i wouldn't have to lose that fine balance on each end and drop the scroll when it was carried to the 'ark.' 

well, when i first started attending - we had a fine piano and fine pianist - but that has since been nixed.  i'm not sure - but i think it had implications.  what they were - i don't know.  perhaps too similar to traditional services?  now we are using these drums and chanting.  suppose that alistair will now say that i am messianic pentecostal - but they do actually have music that you sing inbetween the spoken hebrew.  what i like is that the liturgy is directly from the bible.  you are quoting what the bible actually says in most instances. 

now messianic groups are much like all the other churches in that you have many variations from strict orthodoxy (a few don't truly believe that Jesus was here th efirst time - but attend on holy days) to those that believe in water baptism - like me.  we agree to disagree - and usually after sabbath services and a meal - we sit around and discuss things openly and freely in a much less liturgical setting.  i like that very much.  we have lively discussions -but if people disagree - it is a pleasant disagreement and no real fighting or contention.  in fact, i find this particular church kind of a breath of fresh air.  sometimes when doctrinal changes become an overwhelming issue with the pastors - the laity don't really care a whit.

getting along seems much more important than perfection of knowledge - although i think there is room to grow in both.  love is patient, kind, etc. - so to me - attendance is to seek fellowship with other believers even if they don't believe exactly what i do. 

i understand thal believing in God and Christ - and yet having personal doubts and times when he wants to just throw in the dishtowel.  all christians have a temptation to just do 'what comes naturally.'  in everything.  to be free to do what non-christians can do.  but, it really leads nowhere. there is no light and no freedom in freedom - if you get what i'm saying. 

i read this article in (yes) reader's digest that said when blue sunday laws were no longer existing in parts of britain - meaning the stores were open on sunday - a huge decline in church attendance happened.  what do you think they were doing?  yes!  shopping.  now, on an island with nothing to do except climb cliffs - i think i'd rather rest.  but, that's just me.  seriously, though - law is second to love.  if love is #1 then the pastor should be climbing the cliffs to get the little children something to eat - or praying for manna. 

exactly what kind of people want to live on an island like this anyways.  they must be really strong.  kind of like amazon people gone north. 

as far as how many hours i was on today - hmmm. let's see.  well - my daughter has a terrible cough and so i was waiting at one point for her to finish a bath, then we made some lunch and in between i sneak piano forum. 

[pianistimo]

dear penguinlover,  i wish i knew some congregations out there -because it is enlightening and enjoyable.  when i say chant - i really mean 'speak.'  we speak these congregational sections of the litergy together and then the leader speaks the main parts.  it's sort of call and response (now don't say a word, alistar).  when the spirit moves us - we respond with much veracity.  when we are few in number and weak in stomach - we just sort of are quiet.  my husband, when he comes - adds much to the volume.  and, i might add - has a talent for learning languages quickly and remembering not only songs but that liturgical stuff that has 1/4 and 1/8th tones mixed in.  very interesting, this hebrew language.  each symbol has a sort of blend with a note that makes the word 'musical.'  one of the men who leads the service has extensive knowledge of hebrew. 

mostly i go and worship and listen.  and also talk afterwards.  we have lively discussions and i always feel the presence of God in their service.  it is like i'm back in time 2,000 years when the temple was still there.  some of the music at these services can be very very old.  you hear it in the melodies. 

this service may be a completely foreign experience for you penguinlover - and yet - if you are like me - you might start attending two churches.  the one your husband attends and this one too.  it's just nice to have an extra view and another way of approaching God - even though He is so far above us.   I think He does see our small efforts to worship him in truth.

i forgot to say, too, that most of the liturgy is in english with hebrew subtitles so that some of it is in english and some spoken in hebrew.  it really helps understanding what you are saying. 

[ahinton]

potroasted swans?  alistair - you always do add some kind of 'spark' to things.  i have no idea why people on a remote island would be harvesting birds up in the cliffs - as birds have a tendency to fly away, don't they.  is this some sort of lesson?

They don't do that - it's just that if birds happen to fly into the overhead electricity wires - well, you can guess the rest...

good thing you don't give sunday school lessons, thal.

It's an even better one that I don't give lessons, either in "Sunday school" or elsewhere...

and, i'm wondering exactly what your mother taught you.  no matter.  you're still good looking.  that has to count for something.

Well, I expect it does - for "young chaps" like Thal. Good for him, say I...

wow.  so many topics.  let's see - messianic synagogues in california.  hmm. actually i never had been to one until i moved here and couldn't find a church nearby that kept the sabbath.  i suppose that i could have made it easy on myself and gone to the corner sunday keeping church (which is 1/2 mile away) - but i feel ill at ease in churches with bells.  this is a terrible confession.  i just don't like church bells.  there is nothing - absolutely nothing wrong with church bells.  in fact, i sort of like to hear them rung from a distance.  but up close -i feel claustrophobic. 

now, in the messianic groups - they keep music to a soft minimum with a little chanting and carrying on.

"Carrying on"? It's a good thing that Pennsylvaniamerican English and British English are so different - divided by a common language again, as we are...

if you don't know hebrew - you just mumble and it sort of makes you fit in.

To what?

many times i have mispronounced words

Can't help about your Philly accent, dear...

but i have learned a smattering of hebrew.

Which, like "a little knowledge" (as the saying goes), is "a dangerous thing"...

enough to say 'yaweh' and know it means God.

Well, yaweh is your way and my way is - oh, forget it...

but, you cannot fathom the great chasm between growing up in a 'traditional' (and yet untraditional ) sabbath keeping church and a messianic synagogue.

No, I certainly can't "fathom" that! To start with, chasms aren't usually measured in fathoms, which is instead a measurement of sea depth - and then add into that the factor that the traditional is at the same time "untraditional" and that you're torn between a Sabbath keeping Christian church and a messianic synagogue and you've certainly taken us all with you into the unfathomable!...

the first time i went - i opened the liturgy book front to back.  i kept scanning pages wondering what was going on - and where everybody was.  turns out you start from back to front.  now, whoever thought of that?  maybe we're the ones that got it backwards, who knows! if it were me with the scrolls - i'd just read the middle over and over so i wouldn't have to lose that fine balance on each end and drop the scroll when it was carried to the 'ark.'

"Dyslexia rules KO", as the old phrase has it; it makes you wonder how Jews like Godowsky ever wrote so much left hand alone piano music, does it not?!...

well, when i first started attending - we had a fine piano and fine pianist - but that has since been nixed.  i'm not sure - but i think it had implications.  what they were - i don't know.  perhaps too similar to traditional services?  now we are using these drums and chanting.  suppose that alistair will now say that i am messianic pentecostal

I might make all manner of implications but would never actually classify you as anothing other than a "pianistimo" (since I know you only via this forum).

i understand thal believing in God and Christ - and yet having personal doubts and times when he wants to just throw in the dishtowel.

But Thal has a bevy of females to do his dishwashing for him - don't you remember that?!

all christians have a temptation to just do 'what comes naturally.'  in everything.  to be free to do what non-christians can do.  but, it really leads nowhere. there is no light and no freedom in freedom - if you get what i'm saying.

Better stop composing, then. Oh, wait abit - I'm not a Christian - so it's OK for me to "carry on" (albeit not in the above implied sense!) writing music after all. And no - since you ask - I don't "get" what you are saying...

i read this article in (yes) reader's digest

Well, that says it all, that does - I mean that your reading of it says it all about you, not that this publication "says" anything at all, really...

that said when blue sunday laws were no longer existing in parts of britain - meaning the stores were open on sunday - a huge decline in church attendance happened.  what do you think they were doing?  yes!  shopping.  now, on an island with nothing to do except climb cliffs - i think i'd rather rest.

If you're talking about some of the islands around Britain, you'd have little or no choice, for these have very few stores in which to shop anyway.

but, that's just me.  seriously, though - law is second to love.  if love is #1 then the pastor should be climbing the cliffs to get the little children something to eat - or praying for manna.

You're off on one of your trips again and I can't follow the route that this substance seems to be taking you...

exactly what kind of people want to live on an island like this anyways.  they must be really strong.  kind of like amazon people gone north.

I daresay that people living on islands all over the wrold must wonder sometimes why people who live on the mainland enjoy being surrounded by all those pentecostal churches...

as far as how many hours i was on today - hmmm. let's see.  well - my daughter has a terrible cough and so i was waiting at one point for her to finish a bath, then we made some lunch and in between i sneak piano forum. 

So, now we have a fully authenticated extract from the diaries: Pianistimo, Chapter Umpteen, Verse Endless...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Then "augment" it again immediately by doing some piano practice.

Excellent advice Mr. Hinton, which being the obedient soul that I am, I followed at my earliest opportunity.    Herr Mozart indeed did augment me, as was too busy counting to have any of pianistimo's fluff in my mind.

Here is my early New Years resolution: I am not going to read any more of pianistimo's rants.  Piano stuff excepted (where she is very helpful  )

[thalbergmad]

Here is my early New Years resolution: I am not going to read any more of pianistimo's rants.  

Mine too, i have spent too much time reading them.

[penguinlover]

So, you'll continue to read them until January?

[thalbergmad]

So, you'll continue to read them until January?

Yes, I will have a few more questions after I have read "The Jesus Papers" and that will be it.

I have promised myself a Bible free year for 2007.

More time practicing and less time spent debating in this honoured emporium.

Thal

[asyncopated]

I was planning to give "The God Delusion" as a christmas present to a friend.  What do you all think? 

[prometheus]

Depends on your motivations for giving that book. If the motivations are the right one then  that means it is a good idea.

[pianistimo]

why not start directly with stephen hawking?  i mean - if you believe something - better to promote what you believe than spend hours proving someone else wrong.  it looks kinda suspicious.  and, of course, gives them more ammunition for believing what you're supposedly disproving. 

but, as a parent - i cannot say for sure than directness counts for anything.  i mean,when my children were young - i read the bible many times to them.  especially the ten commandments and the of the ot in general.  now - am more focused on the nt and the intents of the law.  sometimes i think you can do more by example - and alistair is not wrong to complain - that despite christians admonishing non-christians - their time is better spent actually making something of themselves and supporting themselves with more concrete jobs than 'preaching.'  although, i tend to feel that preaching has it's place on the weekend.  alistair - you have every right to consider yourself 'one of the family' because atheists are not really non-believers - they just haven't proven God exists.  sort of like the disciple timothy.  he believed only after He saw the ressurrected Jesus. 

[asyncopated]

Depends on your motivations for giving that book. If the motivations are the right one then  that means it is a good idea.

It just seem a tad too cynical, celebrating what is essentially the birth of christ (despite the comercialism) by giving a book that says he doesn't exist.

Despite not believing in JC, christmas is definately a good thing.

why not start directly with stephen hawking?

Because hawking's book is pop science.  The real stuff is too difficult to read, and the pop stuff tends to end up with funny/mis interpretations, especially if has to do with black holes, worm like objects and the bendiness of space and time.  It'll probably cause me more agony in the end.

[ahinton]

why not start directly with stephen hawking?

Glad to see you'e dropped that final "s"!...

alistair - you have every right to consider yourself 'one of the family' because atheists are not really non-believers - they just haven't proven God exists.

What "family"? There are other flaws in your remark here, too. Atheists are not all the same; this is a mistaken belief prevalent among non-atheists. Some atheists really do not believe in God, whereas others, as you write, just haven't proven (to their own satisfaction, at least) that God exists. Then again, some of the latter kind might more accurately be classified as agnostics rather than atheists. But there is another problem here; how does your remark about my "right" here relate directly to your reference to "atheists" in any case? Did I ever say that I am - or have been - an atheist?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

So, you'll continue to read them until January?

"Wishful thinker" did mention an "early" New Year's resolution, did he not?!

Best,

Alistair

[penguinlover]

Yes, he did say early, but that just meant to me he made it now, to start in January.

[ahinton]

Yes, he did say early, but that just meant to me he made it now, to start in January.

I guess that you could be right about that; in fact, it could be interpreted either way as it stands. You can tell from this minuscule example just how many possible interpretations to which ancient Biblical texts may be open, can you not?!

Best,

Alistair

[penguinlover]

Yes, I can.  It would be much easier for everyone if we spoke Greek and Hebrew, and understood the thought processes of the people who speak (spoke) it.  I wish we understood it all right now, but I guess we can't.  So, until we all do, there will be millions, billions of different interpretations.

[thalbergmad]

https://www.religiousforums.com/

An alternative forum for the tambourine bangers.

[wishful thinker]

Yes yes... I hear that they give out $5 bills as well as eternal salvation there, so please make haste, ye of toooooo much faith 

[pianowolfi]

https://www.religiousforums.com/

An alternative forum for the tambourine bangers.

Cool link Thal  I didn't know that one yet. But I'm pretty heretic. Perhaps I will get banned after 5 posts there

Edit: just registered

[ahinton]

https://www.religiousforums.com/

An alternative forum for the tambourine bangers.

Not to undermine your general thrust here, but please do be aware that the tambourine has a legitimate use outside the kind of activity to which you obliquely refer; what, for example, do you suppose that the third percussionist in the Philadelphia Orchestra might make of your disparaging remarks about the tambourine?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Not to undermine your general thrust here, but please do be aware that the tambourine has a legitimate use outside the kind of activity to which you obliquely refer; what, for example, do you suppose that the third percussionist in the Philadelphia Orchestra might make of your disparaging remarks about the tambourine?

Best,

Alistair

In that case, i exchange "tambourine bangers" with "bead jugglers"

[ahinton]

In that case, i exchange "tambourine bangers" with "bead jugglers"

Thank you very much. I can now write for tambourine again (if ever I need to) without fear or favour, knowing also that no orchestral player is ever likely to want a part that involves bead juggling...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

https://www.newageinfo.com/gospel-judas.htm

Anyone for the Gospel of Judas??

Tis the work of the Devil.

Thal

[ahinton]

https://www.newageinfo.com/gospel-judas.htm

Anyone for the Gospel of Judas??

Tis the work of the Devil.

Thal

"newage" looks very similar to "sewage", does it not?

Anyway, I'm quite sure that, however unwittingly and unwillingly, you are far more familiar with the Gospel according to Santa Susanna...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

https://www.atheists.org/christianity/myth.html

Seem like a nice bunch

[thalbergmad]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=13064

Is the holy one coming back in a different guise?

On the 3rd day, she has risen.

[musik_man]

How did Pianistimo vote 8 times in the poll?

Has she hacked the forum?

[pianowolfi]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=13064

Is the holy one coming back in a different guise?

On the 3rd day, she has risen.

Ahahaha!

[term]

regarding the ice ages - i've already said - i'm not a scientist so why bother talking to me as though i know something about it other than what i read.  i have not been to the poles.  i do not know what they do when they suddenly switch or what happens every 10,000 years or 50,000

Thats absolutely ok, but you know: You dont have to be a scientist to know that. In other words, thats basic knowledge. If you dont know thats ok, but you should be willing improve the situation. One has to know both sides: You know the bible pretty well obviously, you should also inform yourself about the scientific viewpoint.

I don't believe in the christian god, the religion itself or belong to any other religion, but still i read the bible and am now reading the quran. I just generally think if you want to discuss that topic you have to be informed about every aspect, thats why i suggested that you read some Stephen Hawking *g*

[dnephi]

Hahaha ... 9 Pianistimos.  You apparently have "followers."

[wishful thinker]

You apparently have "followers."

yes, and they are carrying shotguns 

[ahinton]

There are now apparently as many pianistimi as there are commandments. Does it stop there?

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

There are now apparently as many pianistimi as there are commandments. Does it stop there?

Best,

Alistair

 






Sorry Pianistimo, I couldn't resist. This is too funny!

[pianowelsh]

No she dosent ! However people who maliciously attack. mock, berate and disregard her for sharing her what seems to be increasingly marginal views ARE a discredit to this forum aand to freedom of though and expression. We dont all have to agree on everything you know.  By the way whoever it was that said Christians are narrow minded for arguing from the bible. It so happens that I wasnt always a Christian, I too thought that the Bible and Jesus and Salvation was foolish and irrelevent.  God opened my eyes! The bible is the power of God - Christians neglect it to their detrement. SO please dont presume that you are arguing the toss with people who are totally closed off to other avenues of thought - you are not. It just so happens that I dont think the same way anymore because God changed my heart. Also if he changes your heart as he has done for myself and i believe pianistimo then he has adopted us into his family, so what if were not perfect, so what if we get it wrong sometimes - doesnt change the fact were his and we are accepted and loved in him. SO really it doesnt matter whether the whole world thinks she is a discredit to him, because she is his child and he loves her.  What right has a kid in the playground to say what you are an imbarressment to your mum.  If the mum loves the child and the child loves the mum, the relationship wont change whatever trouble the kid gets into, there is a deep tie that cant be broken.
God Bless you susan.

[penguinlover]

ditto - Thanks

[thalbergmad]

However people who maliciously attack. mock, berate and disregard her for sharing her what seems to be increasingly marginal views ARE a discredit to this forum aand to freedom of though and expression.

Agreed, but i would swap the word sharing for spamming.

[ahinton]

 






Sorry Pianistimo, I couldn't resist. This is too funny!

I can see why you couldn't - and I'm sure that pianistimo won;t even have been axpecting your apology, since the adult person in these photographs is not pianistimo. It's not pianistimo, is it?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

It is her. I find her cute and the baby too. As I said before, I respect Pianistimo, she is a kind person, she has helped me even with certain problems. I don't see any reason to join in that bashing mood against her. But because I know she has a good sense of humour I dared to post this, just because i find it funny to imagine a multiplicating Pianistimo.  She can take "revenge" if she likes.

[ahinton]

No she dosent ! However people who maliciously attack. mock, berate and disregard her for sharing her what seems to be increasingly marginal views ARE a discredit to this forum aand to freedom of though and expression.

Speaking personally, I do not do any of the above and am not about to condone anyone that does - but at the same time I admit that I have upbraided her for spending so much of her time posting disproportionate amounts of verbiage on things about biblical reference, Jesus Christ and the rest in places that are not intrinsically calling for this kind of response. I do not at all approve of the practice of mocking of the beliefs of others; this, however, does not prevent me from expressing my disagreement with them or, as in this case, responding that some people have a tendency to put forward far too much of this kind of thing in what is, first and foremost, a piano forum.

Sorabji was one of the past century's most important piano composers and if, as the curator of the archive dedicated to his work, I used almost every opportunity and none to draw him, at length, into discussions here, some people would get irritated by it; it's all a matter of proportion, discretion and consideration for othe members - and Sorabji was at least a pianist and a piano composer, whereas God was neither! There is also the fact that this disproportionate quantity of Christian biblical material might - and, for all I know, perhaps even has - irritated some forum members of equally strong non-Christian religious beliefs.

We dont all have to agree on everything you know.

Not only is it true that we do not, but it is also true that we cannot...

By the way whoever it was that said Christians are narrow minded for arguing from the bible. It so happens that I wasnt always a Christian, I too thought that the Bible and Jesus and Salvation was foolish and irrelevent.  God opened my eyes! The bible is the power of God - Christians neglect it to their detrement.

I am not deriding the Bible. At the same time, however, I do believe that the slavish adherence to its every word does those Christians who pursue this no favours whatsoever. As I have \lready observed, the following facts should always be borne in mind about the Bible as we have it today:
1. It has been translated out of all recognition over some two millennia
2. Its original language and every other language into which it has been translated have also changed out of all recognition over the same period
3. Not only is it incomplete, but it is impossible to determine what might have been intended in terms of its state of intended completion at the time that the most recent material in it was actually written, because it never had an overseeing editor, there was never any particular co-ordination between its individual authors' work and it was never intended to end up as a kind of multi-author symposium; it is thus a relatively random collection of writings from different chroniclers
4. It various authors did not even all know one another
5. The emphases and nuances of presentation of certain events covered by more than one author vary considerably
6. The literary style and prowess of each of its authors were not always evenly balanced.

All that said, it remains an important historical document which should no more be mocked that it should be taken as the ultimate arbiter of any kind of universal truth.

SO please dont presume that you are arguing the toss with people who are totally closed off to other avenues of thought - you are not.

Sometimes, some people who major in on the Bible as some kind of literary representation of the beginning, middle and end of our human civilisation do indeed appear to close themselves of, to greater or lesser degree, to other avenues of thought; Some others decidedly do not, but this fact doesn;t detract from the fact that some do.

It just so happens that I dont think the same way anymore because God changed my heart.

That's up to you and it shows at least that you have been open enough to have such a thing as a change of heart. As you yourself point out, however, we don't all think the same way - nor can we.

Best,

Alistair