Poll for religious people

[ahinton]

you spelled my name wrong.

He's not the first to do that, is he, Walter Ramsey?!

but i am not calling you an idiot

No, indeed you don't do this kind of thing, any more than I go around calling you "stupid"...

because in the sight of God we're all equal.

Well, I think that we may have to beg to differ here; I say so because, for example, I'm far from sure that God - or at least God as you see Him - would regard as equal to people like you a composer who writes a big string quintet in which the finale includes a part for a solo soprano who sings texts from the Upanishads, the Indian poet Tagore and the Lebanese Gibran, the Englishman John Keats at his most suspicious of a certain early 19th century manifestation of Christian worship in his country, the Zoroastrian Sorabji, the Jew Schönberg and the born-again devout atheists Frederick Delius and Norman Douglas, among others, do you?!

you know - how some  people look for every little thing wrong in a person.

Yes - don't they just?! Sad, isn't it!? I do agree wholeheartedly with you here.

why not look for things you love about someone - and keep back the things you would criticize.

Not a bad way to go about things, as long as it doesn't make one habitually mealy-mouthed about expressing one's opinions in appropriate circumstances (as distinct, susanistimo dear, from those inappropriate ones in which you spout forth your preaching, for example); Delius once interrupted a mealy-mouthed answer from his young amanuensis Eric Fenby to the question "what did you think of that" (about a broadcast that they'd just listened to together) with the bald statement "you knew it was bad - you should have said it was bad!".

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

Yes, but I was going to defend this forum as you may have noticed.

So you did! Although lately i'm inclined to agree with those others as it getting pretty bad, especially  in this thread!!!!

[ahinton]

"If God is forum" who can be against 'em?"

Yes, indeed - it really does seem more than about time to pack this thread up, does it not? When atheists and agnostics join by contributing, without invitation and without having - or feeling any need of - invitation from those of religious persuasions, to a thread entitled "Poll for religious people", the original specific object of the thread seems already to have been undermined, notwithstanding the interesting contributions from some of those non-religious members. So - why don't we now just pronounce the vote, close the thread and get back to more interesting matters, before the uncommonly patient and pragmatic Nils finally decides to add an "Anything but Religion" sector to this forum and move all this stuff thereto?

Best,

Alistair

[penguinlover]

1. To all those who want to have a go at "pianistimo" - hands off her!

My thought exactly!

When I saw this thread I was hesitant to even read it!  If I were pianistimo, I would certainly be hurt.  Frankly, I am surprized that she even read this, and even more surprized that she posted anything here.  Certainly she was entitled NOT to do so, but she chose to anyway, knowing what it would bring. 

I think pianistimo is a well informed forum member, on many subjects.  She doesn't deserve this.   You don't have to agree with her,  why not try just ignoring the things that you don't agree with?

[pianistimo]

i see i have remained at 5.  combining pianoforum with geneological research is making me even crazier.  can you imagine 5 of the same person when you're trying to research ancestors.  now, no jokes about my ancestors. 

thank you penguinlover!  and alistair - in your round about ways!  susan

[penguinlover]

You're welcome.  I sure couldn't do it!

[jpianoflorida]

"If God is forum" who can be against 'em?"

Yes, indeed - it really does seem more than about time to pack this thread up, does it not? When atheists and agnostics join by contributing, without invitation and without having - or feeling any need of - invitation from those of religious persuasions, to a thread entitled "Poll for religious people", the original specific object of the thread seems already to have been undermined, notwithstanding the interesting contributions from some of those non-religious members. So - why don't we now just pronounce the vote, close the thread and get back to more interesting matters, before the uncommonly patient and pragmatic Nils finally decides to add an "Anything but Religion" sector to this forum and move all this stuff thereto?

Best,

Alistair

I agree...I think there should  be a "holiday" around here from religious discussion.   Maybe  a set day or 2 that everyone agrees to not post anything about atheists, religion, etc.    what do you think?    or actually the question is, is that really possible?   Wouldn't it be a good experience for all of us(myself very included) to resist the urge to respond to certain posts?

[pianistimo]

i didn't start this poll.  actually i've never started any religious thread.  so if i am responding, it is to threads already created.  maybe someone should create an athiests thread - so discussion can continue?

[ahinton]

i didn't start this poll.  actually i've never started any religious thread.  so if i am responding, it is to threads already created.  maybe someone should create an athiests thread - so discussion can continue?

No, susanistimo, I know you didn't - we all know you didn't - and none of us, as far as I can tell, has any problem with your responding to it with religious statements - BUT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO GET ACROSS IS YOUR DRAGGING OF RELIGION INTO NON-RELIGIOUS TOPICS; CAN YOU TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT? OR DOES IT MAKE NO SENSE TO YOU? I'm not sure what to think about your take on this, because you have so far consistently avoided responding to this specific question.

Please say something about that!

Best,

Aistair

[thalbergmad]

Remain calm Hinty.

I would like to see a comment about that as well.

Thal

[prometheus]

She already answered that question. We should open an 'atheist topic' for non-religious discussion.

[pianistimo]

where?  and where are my posts that are religious in non-religious threads?  hmm.  very few to none, i'd say.  if you look in my piano threads - they are all about some aspect of piano.  show me where they talk religion, alistair.

in 'anything but' piano - i am open to the idea of 'huge' being an inclusive idea of what makes the universe huge.  it is not out of the topic range to discuss God in that context.  you like to discuss the big bang.  so what?  i am not complaining am i?

i think you're whiners.  you tell me i obsess about religion.  you're obsessed with strangling  the right of free speech.  i suppose you think dragging books out of the library that talk about history correctly and God anywhere's is the government right?

[thalbergmad]

where? 

Incredible

[pianistimo]

don't say incredible - go find one.  go find one in the piano forum section.  and, not under 'church musicians.'

and, tell me Thal - what IS huge?  us or the universe?

[ahinton]

Remain calm Hinty.

I would like to see a comment about that as well.

Thal

"Remain"? I have remained calm, young chap; please be assured that using upper case when repeating something for the forty-eleventh time is not of itself predicated upon the raising of one's internal temperature; I've been trying to elicit a comment about this for ages in several threads, but so far Susanistimo has said as little in response to it as she has said much in quotations various from Matthew Chapter 99 Verse 666...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

don't say incredible - go find one.  go find one in the piano forum section.  and, not under 'church musicians.'

and, tell me Thal - what IS huge?  us or the universe?

I have got better things to do than waste my time searching for your ramblings that i have already read.

what IS huge - your posts normally.

[prometheus]

Well, I am sure I read something like that here this morning, saying that subjects that should stay secular should be posted in a special topic. I have learned that I can put a lot of trust into my memory.

But I tried to check it, someone else may have said that. But I can't find anything like what I remember. Of course it is hard to know for sure since almost every topic here in this part of the forum is now abour religion.

Of course we all know it is not irregular for Pianistimo to delete things. Maybe that happened. Or maybe a rare failure of my memory.

[thalbergmad]

i suppose you think dragging books out of the library that talk about history correctly and God anywhere's is the government right?

Do not understand, please explain.

[pianistimo]

not only are libraries governed.  the internet is governed.  knowledge is disseminated carefully.  some is obliterated.  i had to search high and low for an old fashioned american history text some years ago.

here in america - school libraries are 'democratically' moving.  only evolution.  nothing about God.  nothing on the other side to counter.  it's like we don't live in a free country anymore.  i say - give people a choice to decide.  don't decide for them - and teach theory as fact.

if we say evolution is a story - what's wrong with the story of the bible.  if people consider it a story - why is it banned.  it's because they fear reality.  also, i feel that some knowledge in general is being stifled and many rights are going down the tubes due to patriot act as well. 

i can tell you this - you'll never see me on a cal state campus.

[prometheus]

Are you now standing up against those American Christians that are trying to get evolution banned from public schools?

[pianistimo]

no.  i just said 'teach both sides.'  don't tell a theory without a counter theory.

do you realize only pennsylvania and a few other states actively fought the idea that we should just sign away our rights with the patriot act?  i realize this is a slight change of subject - but shows how fast rights can disappear.  with one writing of a pen.  this happened years ago with libraries.  it started in the 60's.

i appreciate freer thinkers:

abraham lincoln
william penn
benjamin franklin
john adams

they didn't let people go around telling them what to do. 

[ahinton]

where?  and where are my posts that are religious in non-religious threads?  hmm.  very few to none, i'd say.  if you look in my piano threads - they are all about some aspect of piano.  show me where they talk religion, alistair.

in 'anything but' piano - i am open to the idea of 'huge' being an inclusive idea of what makes the universe huge.  it is not out of the topic range to discuss God in that context.  you like to discuss the big bang.  so what?  i am not complaining am i?

i think you're whiners.  you tell me i obsess about religion.  you're obsessed with strangling  the right of free speech.  i suppose you think dragging books out of the library that talk about history correctly and God anywhere's is the government right?

Now I think that it's you, Susan, who is losing her calm. I don't want to trawl through all your posts to illustrate examples, but I'm sure you can tell where they are. I do agree that you do not always include religious matter in non-religious posts and I have accordingly never suggested that you do; it is just that I and others find the extent of your religious references generally disproportionate on a forum principally devoted to matters pianistic and that those who don't sympathise with this are by no means all atheists.

I have not told you that you obsess about religion; indeed, I have on more than one occasion made it clear that your beliefs are your prerogative and yours alone. Where there does appear to be an obsessive tendency is to talk at length about your beliefs and cite the Bible and quotations from it as though they were all somehow germane to the interests of piano people and that they will accordingly want to read them, however long they may sometimes be.

I am all for free speech - although I have already said as much. I have tried hard to give other examples, such as the idea of my banging on and on about Sorabji, or Bösendorfer pianos, or whatever takes my fancy, to a disproportionate degree - and these are subjects that are of understandable interest to some piano people, since they involve matters pianistic.

So that you understand where I'm coming from here, let me assure you that I do not believe that atheists, Jews, Buddhists, etc. should have their right to free speech compromised, any more than I believe that Christians of any and all persuasions should either; I just don't want to hear too much from atheists, Jew, Buddhists, etc. about their beliefs when the topic under discussion is something other than the principles of religious belief (a potentially endlessly interesting topic in and of itself, nevertheless, WHEN it is the topic under duscussion).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

not only are libraries governed.  the internet is governed.  knowledge is disseminated carefully.  some is obliterated.  i had to search high and low for an old fashioned american history text some years ago.

here in america - school libraries are 'democratically' moving.  only evolution.  nothing about God.  nothing on the other side to counter.  it's like we don't live in a free country anymore.  i say - give people a choice to decide.  don't decide for them - and teach theory as fact.

if we say evolution is a story - what's wrong with the story of the bible.  if people consider it a story - why is it banned.  it's because they fear reality.  also, i feel that some knowledge in general is being stifled and many rights are going down the tubes due to patriot act as well. 

i can tell you this - you'll never see me on a cal state campus.

Well, things have changed then coz i thought at one time it was illegal to teach evolution in parts of America. Or perhaps, i have been watching too many films (monkey trial).

Has the Bible realy been banned?.

The Church has an excellent record of banning science, so i guess what goes around.........

I don't think i will ever see you on a cal state campus.

Thal

[pianistimo]

cal state has american history teachers that are not even born here.  they teach crap, i tell you!

pennsylvania at least has some correct history lessons.  some is still here.  and, people are not afraid to exercise some judgement and not let everyone think for them.  'give me liberty or give me death.'

do you realize congress used to have a prayer before convening?

btw - i think you are thinking of england, thal.

ahinton - ?  where?

[ahinton]

no.  i just said 'teach both sides.'  don't tell a theory without a counter theory.

do you realize only pennsylvania and a few other states actively fought the idea that we should just sign away our rights with the patriot act?  i realize this is a slight change of subject - but shows how fast rights can disappear.  with one writing of a pen.  this happened years ago with libraries.  it started in the 60's.

i appreciate freer thinkers:

abraham lincoln
william penn
benjamin franklin
john adams

they didn't let people go around telling them what to do. 

I do agree that you have a good point here, in principle, at least. Brainwashing is usually disgusting and never cleans anything. We've all witnessed, either at first hand or (in far more cases) at some remove the kinds of activity in certain countries in the last century that have been designed to excise certain truths from general public availability and I most emphatically do not condone this kind of thing, whoever is seeking to do it or to whom. Rights can indeed disappear and it is up to individuals to try to overcome this by continuing to seek after truth and find out what they need to know. On the other hand, one could just as easily speculate that making too much knowledge too easily available to too many people insufficiently well educated and primed to know how best to deal with it is almost as potentially deadening as the organised governmental censoriousness described above.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

pennsylvania at least has some correct history lessons.  some is still here.  and, people are not afraid to exercise some judgement and not let everyone think for them.  'give me liberty or give me death.'

Interesting, but what is "correct" history lessons.

Ones that use the Bible, other sources or both.

[pianistimo]

one that tells how the founding fathers of declaration of independence actually prayed sometimes.  and, the pilgrims, way back when.

also, how george washington prayed - and more about his personal life.  i didn't know anything about american history before i came here - because none was around to be had at the library.   

[ahinton]

ahinton - ?  where?

Still here! - and rather enjoying your writing about human freedoms and the dangers of letting them be compromised.

Certain kinds of music itself has been censored in certain countries at certain times, as doubtless you know; Western "classical" music is now under its second ban in Iran since the 1979 revolution and one intelligent commentator on this speculates - not without good reason, I think - that this veto has been imposed out of fear of the effect that some of this music can have...

You will note from this that, to me, the right to "free speech" includes musical speech - so one may live in hope that America doesn't forget to support the free musical speech of Elliott Carter and Milton Babbitt as well as that of Philip Glass and John Adams...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

one that tells how the founding fathers of declaration of independence actually prayed sometimes.  and, the pilgrims, way back when.

also, how george washington prayed - and more about his personal life.

You write here only about American history - which is fine, but I hope (and, to be fair, I also expect) that you would also see "correct" American history as including far more than who prayed to who when.

i didn't know anything about american history before i came here - because none was around to be had at the library.   

Assuming that you are referring here to public rather than university libraries, that is a most damning indictment to public libraries in Pennsylvania - and most especially in a city of the size and reputation of Philadelphia; if true, someone somewhere ought to be seriously ashamed of themselves...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

that is the freest form of music speech on many distinguished musical campuses - such as julliard.  it's just that performing it to an enraptured audience of fellow students is different than the general public - who might not understand it.

i hear what you are saying, ahinton - although i believe that information is like water.  we shouldn't have to pay for it over and over.

alistair, much of american history happened in pennsylvania - so why would they try to change it.  the libraries are great here.  both public and private.  perhaps elementary schools have more 'story ' stuff - and less factual stuff crammed into their books - but generally they have lots of antique bookstores, too - that you can actually compare notes.  just like music.  is this true.  can you corroborate it with another source? 

[thalbergmad]

one that tells how the founding fathers of declaration of independence actually prayed sometimes.  and, the pilgrims, way back when.

also, how george washington prayed - and more about his personal life.  i didn't know anything about american history before i came here - because none was around to be had at the library.   

Why is it important that history students are taught that their ancestors prayed?

What is the relevance?.

[prometheus]

no.  i just said 'teach both sides.'  don't tell a theory without a counter theory.

Which theory? Both sides? Are there only two? If you are going to teach all sides? Then why not teach the creation myths of the the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu? (from Leipzig, n.d.

I mean equal time?

And a what about the shape of the earth? We all know the earth is round. But an alternative theory is that the earth is flat. Should we teach both?

And there are more sides, just a list of some geographical shapes the earth might have: polygon, decagon, digon, dodecagon, enneagon, henagon, hendecagon, heptagon, hexagon, icosagon, octagon, pentagon, triangle, parallelogram, Penrose tile, rectangle, rhombus, square, rapezium, quadrilateral, annulus, arbelos, circle, crescent and oval.

[pianistimo]

the relevance, to me, is the idea of knowing where you came from and where you are going.  the early americans knew that they were escaping religious persecution and william penn - among others - allowed the most religions in his 'camp' because he knew what it felt like to be persecuted for not agreeing with a state/country religion (or none at all - as in russia) 

do you realize that some countries have a national religion (or several) as iraq.  do you like that?

prometheus, i don't think you have ever fully experienced freedom and thus you repeat what you are taught.  in america- we have the right to express round, flat, whatever - and people can believe it or not believe it.  the bible, btw, doesn't say anywhere that the earth is flat.  in fact, there's a scripture in psalms that mentions God inscribing the earth as a circle.

[prometheus]

Ooh, and the US founding fathers proposed a secular state and build in all kinds of mechanims in the constitution to protect it against people like Pianistimo.

[pianistimo]

no, to protect all religions.  so we could have religious freedom and tolerance.

i  like science, but i believe it has now become the official religion for the last two or three generations of americans.  that is why our 'blessings' are being overtaken for 'curses.'  the blessings and cursings in the bible are from a promise given to abraham (that issac and jacob carried on).  very few believe in the absolute truth of the bible - but if you read it carefully - we are now experiencing the curses on our land, etc.

america used to be a fruitful country.  it is now at times burning in various states at an alarming rate. the farmland is becoming depleted.  it is turning as the bible says - to iron and brass.  the heavens are not giving the rain we once had.  why?  because people say 'there's no God.'

[thalbergmad]

the bible, btw, doesn't say anywhere that the earth is flat.  in fact, there's a scripture in psalms that mentions God inscribing the earth as a circle.

A circle is flat, or am i just believing what i have been taught?

[prometheus]

prometheus, i don't think you have ever fully experienced freedom and thus you repeat what you are taught.  in america- we have the right to express round, flat, whatever - and people can believe it or not believe it.  the bible, btw, doesn't say anywhere that the earth is flat.  in fact, there's a scripture in psalms that mentions God inscribing the earth as a circle.

What an argument. But I see now you added something. Yes, you have the right to claim the earth is a hendecagon. Same with creation myths. You have the right to claim the world came into being according to the Nadruvian.

But what is taught in public school is not the same as that what you can claim under the freedom of speech.

[pianistimo]

not if it is inscribed on water.  i have no idea, thal, how God did all this - but i take the bible literally.  if previous middle aged people believed the earth was flat - and the catholic church promoted it - maybe they should have looked at a couple of lunar eclipses (or solar) and agreed with galileo?

i'm not bashing everything secular - because i see the reasonings and some are good and true.  some are theory.  why don't they tell people the other theories?  say creation?

i believe that when our dollar no longer says 'under God we trust' - we're doomed.

[prometheus]

I have no idea, thal, how God did all this - but i take the bible literally.

So what should be taught as an alternative to science? You claim they should teach both theories? So which ones? The theory of the big bang? And?

The bible tells about a god that created a flat geocentric earth with a firmament seperating the earth from the heavens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology

[pianistimo]

where does it say a flat earth?  nowhere in the bible.  you can't find it.  His spirit was hovering over water.  how can water be simply stretched out flat?  also, why is the horizon curved.  early man wasn't stupid.  the middle-ages brought this in.

every fifty, hundred etc. years brings war - disease, famine - but i think it's coming to a much bigger catastrophic ending soon.  and, i don't think we'll be saying 'there's no God.'  there won't be any help but God.

where do you turn in war, famine, disease?  to doctors.  somewhat.  but, they can't solve problems when you have epidemics.

[thalbergmad]

not if it is inscribed on water.  i have no idea, thal, how God did all this - but i take the bible literally.  if previous middle aged people believed the earth was flat - and the catholic church promoted it - maybe they should have looked at a couple of lunar eclipses (or solar) and agreed with galileo?

i'm not bashing everything secular - because i see the reasonings and some are good and true.  some are theory.  why don't they tell people the other theories?  say creation?

i believe that when our dollar no longer says 'under God we trust' - we're doomed.

1. I think i know by now that you take the bible literally, but thanks for reminding me.
2. I expect that the inquisition was aware of eclipses, but probably thought it was the work of the devil.

[pianistimo]

 

[thalbergmad]

where do you turn in war, famine, disease?  to doctors.  somewhat.  but, they can't solve problems when you have epidemics.

People prayed to God during the "Black Death", but where did it get them?

75% of the population of Europe, dead.

We would still be suffering similar events now if it was not for science and medicine.

When did God intervene?

[prometheus]

Theophilus of Antioch, Augustine of Hippo, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Lactantius, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severianus of Gabala all claim the earth was flat based on the bible.

The bible doesn't need to teach that the earth is flat. It was just obvious to the people that wrote the bible.

But a few examples where the bible hints at a flat earth:
 "take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)
   "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14)
"The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

There are some more. But there can be no doubt, the writers of the bible thought the earth was flat.

https://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth_ch8.html

The greeks and romans slowly learned that the earth was spherical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

During the dark ages of religion the church claimed the earth was flat one again.

Pianostimo is again jumping from subject to subject; making claims that get refuted and then abandoning them. And then repeating them again a few weeks later.

[pianistimo]

they were not true followers of Jesus Christ, otherwise they would speak truth. 

do you realize that we all - as humans are missing that macroevolutionary fossil stage with apes. do you realize we all have the same genetic makeup from the middle eastern peoples and not african continent - we all share consistent genetic base and not the other way around - from middle east.  who's talking about that?  they probably are scared to do some dna testing on the mungo man's bones - because it might prove he was truly ape and not first bonobo, chimpanzee, neanderthal, mungo man and then us. wow.  that's really stupid, if you ask me - especially since we have no cross-over fossils to prove it.  macroevolution does not exist.  somehow, the fact that aboriginal peoples attracted darwin -and he often sent them (alive or dead - bones) to various places around the world to 'prove' that they were a precursor type of genetic person to adam and eve.  now - we can PROVE this false!

do you realize the jinmium rock shelter once dated at 116,000 years was changed to 5,000.  do you realize IF there was a world flood at noah's time - the lack of trees would significantly alter the delicate balance of carbon 12 to carbon 14 for a period of time.  do you realize how the gorges in the grand canyon point to a worldwide cataclysmic flood that could not be a simple glacier melting slowly over time - but a huge flood that happend suddenly.  good book:  grand canyon:  a different view (from the views of 'oh, this all happened over thousands of years - or slowly a glacier melted - or even a glacier melted very fast.  a glacier would not contain this amount of pressure).

do you realize many things that evolutionists say take thus and such thousands and millions of years of time - can be created by God in an instant to look any way He wants it to look?  rant over.  i am not a scientist - but i look at the evidence for one way and another and think there is more evidence for creation - by far.

[ramseytheii]

Theophilus of Antioch, Augustine of Hippo, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Lactantius, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severianus of Gabala all claim the earth was flat based on the bible.

I never read about Augustine confirming the flatness of the earth, but wikipedia provides these extensive quotes about Augustine's embarassment at seeing the Bible literalists spout off:

"Augustine of Hippo
   It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.

It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.

In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation."

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures.

In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation."

----

The last quotation basically saying, don't blame those who wrote Genesis, they didn't know better!

Unfortunately the Catholic fathers have little influence on the Amerikan Envangelicals, who are essentially inventing their own religion as they go along, but unwittingly repeating the endlessly looping mistakes of history, mistakes which have been disowned by the most pious and strict.  It was Augustine who also said one could not be a Christian without chastity!

Also he is saying that newly gained scientific knowledge is not at odds with the ancient Scriptures.

Pianitisimo, your bizarre lumping of people as "evolutionists" suggests they have some bizarre pagan faith, like they are "Deists" or "polygamists."  What makes an "evolutionist?"  What is their creed?  Is someone who benignly accepts evolution in science class, without caring either way, who passes the tests, and maybe in college is a science tutor who also teaches evolution to younger students, an "evolutionist?"  Or is it purely a political movement?  I am surprised to hear you being so divisive, as if these "evolutionists" are "Pharisees" that are in some kind of corrupt faith!

Only wanting to stir the pot,
Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

then why did they demonize scientists in the catholic church.  they were scared of losing church hierarchical powers and having people follow scientists.  if they were truthful - some of the scientists would have converted - being heard by truth and confirming God in truth.

[prometheus]

It seems Augustin only opposed anti-poles eventhought observation forced him to accept a sphere shape.

Pianistmo. If you don't believe in macro-evolution. Don't you believe Noah lived 4000(?) years ago? Meaning that all dogs we see now have two parents?

That means you believe all dogs, wolves, cyotes, etc evolved out of two dogs in 4000 years. Sience claims that it took way way longer. They go at least 15,000 years back.

So your Noahian evolution does way more amazing things than the macro-evolution you deny.

Ooh, also funny to see you claim that you yourself aren't a true christian. I mean, you can't get around it. You ignore reality.

The fact that you don't know something doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.

[pianistimo]

dogs are species oriented unless mixed breed.  what is keeping God from giving noah many types of dogs and wolves to carry on the ark?  and, why would God need to use evolution - when the earth was repopulated if he wanted to add a few more species - all he'd need to do was 'say the word.' 

i'm not saying there was a creation after creation - but i think that if all is sustained by God - there is no macroevolution of dogs either.  he created them from the start in their various genetic makeups and breeds.  the newer breeds are intermixed.

it is of no use to argue - and i believe science will prove the existence of the truth in the bible.  three main types of bloodlines in humans (and more including noah's wife and the wives of his sons).  they were intermixed as well - but we have the basic colors:  dark, light, medium complexions.  so much for what i think, though, because i would like to see more research and what it proves.  genetic testing has gone throughout the world now.

[ahinton]

not if it is inscribed on water.

How do you inscribe anything on water?

i have no idea, thal, how God did all this

No - but then no one is accusing you because you don't' the rest of us don't, either, so, for once, we're all in the same boat...

- but i take the bible literally.

I think that we'd all noticed that. But, in so doing, do you not perceive at least the difficulties inherent in the facts that (a) the Bible has been translated to pieces over many centuries, (b)even individual languages have changed out of all recognition in reflection of the constant evolution of everything during that time and (c) there is - even without considering (a) and (b) here - still ample danger in taking literally anything that has been conceived by means of multiple authorship?

i believe that when our dollar no longer says 'under God we trust' - we're doomed.

Your dollar doesn't "say" anything. On it is inscribed not "under God we trust" but "in God we trust", which very fact brings me back to the old joke about "in God we trust; all others pay cash" and makes me wonder if its origins were in America for the reason that this phrase appeared - and still does - on US banknotes. That said, it is entirely daft to suggest that this is universally meaningful in the sense that you imply, which, I think, is - as you put it - that "we" (presuming you to mean "the American nation") will be "doomed" if and when its dollar bills are no longer endorsed with this statement; the American dollar is a currency (albeit not always an official one) in many of this world's countries where people either trust in no God at all or a different one from that to which you quite rightly refer here - i.e. the Christian God that was in mind when that phrase was first introduced onto American banknotes - and, in any case, it is well known that not all Americans who use the American dollar "trust in God".

Believe me, I am not seeking to undermine the American nation in so saying, but I do think that there are - and sadly will likely continue to be - plenty more things that might visit something approaching "doom" on the American nation that are wholly unrelated either to trusting or otherwise in God or to the particular inscriptions on American banknotes at any given moment in time. Would that it might only be otherwise...

Best,

Alistair