No more freedom of opinion in PF ?

[daniel patschan]

Today i realized for the first time that there seems to be a special new type of internal rule for posting replies/opinions. In almost all, except the ´student section´ there comes a message saying something like: ´If you are not an advanced pianist/teacher ect. you might consider to post only in the student section ... ect. ect.´ No, i do not belong to this group, i am neither a teacher nor an advanced pianist - but i am interested a lot in classical piano music and i have the right to express my opinion as everybody else has this right. And i will continue to express it anytime a feel so. In times when the overall interest in classical music is fading in our society, there should not be such STUPID and NORROWMINDED reglementations. I am sorry for using such words.

[pianowolfi]

Yeah i also have a problem with that. But when that first was introduced a lot of people appreciated it so I didn't say anything

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Shortly, Nils can do whatever he wants, but the one thing he can't do is stop you from posting. So what if there is a grim sign reminding of your forum standing? If you want to post then post. If you want to spam then spam. If you want to propagate porn or other illegal material than do so, bearing the consequences of course.

[nilsjohan]

Today i realized for the first time that there seems to be a special new type of internal rule for posting replies/opinions. In almost all, except the ´student section´ there comes a message saying something like: ´If you are not an advanced pianist/teacher ect. you might consider to post only in the student section ... ect. ect.´ No, i do not belong to this group, i am neither a teacher nor an advanced pianist - but i am interested a lot in classical piano music and i have the right to express my opinion as everybody else has this right. And i will continue to express it anytime a feel so. In times when the overall interest in classical music is fading in our society, there should not be such STUPID and NORROWMINDED reglementations. I am sorry for using such words.

I am sorry to hear you take it this way.
Dividing the forum into separate categories (boards) is a proven method to keep forums organized and I do not see in what way it should not work here as well.

Although the Piano Forum is mainly intended for pianists, teachers, students and amateurs at an advanced level we welcome anyone interested in classical piano music to take part.
As much as it is reasonable to post discussions about pianos in the Instruments board it is reasonable to post a beginner's question in the Student's Corner instead of Performance.

Please note that the message on the post page use the word "consider" and it is your responsibility to judge what is appropriate for you.
It is intended as a help to place your postings in the most appropriate board to get better respons and to avoid annoying other members.

If you post an "Am I ready for Fantaisie Impromptu?" topic in the Performance board you are asking for trouble but if you post it in the Student's Corner you are more likely to get some helpful advice.

The conclusion is: If you feel experienced enough to take part in the Performance, Repertoire and Teaching boards, please do! 

[daniel patschan]

I am sorry to hear you take it this way.
Dividing the forum into separate categories (boards) is a proven method to keep forums organized and I do not see in what way it should not work here as well.

Although the Piano Forum is mainly intended for pianists, teachers, students and amateurs at an advanced level we welcome anyone interested in classical piano music to take part.
As much as it is reasonable to post discussions about pianos in the Instruments board it is reasonable to post a beginner's question in the Student's Corner instead of Performance.

Please note that the message on the post page use the word "consider" and it is your responsibility to judge what is appropriate for you.
It is intended as a help to place your postings in the most appropriate board to get better respons and to avoid annoying other members.

If you post an "Am I ready for Fantaisie Impromptu?" topic in the Performance board you are asking for trouble but if you post it in the Student's Corner you are more likely to get some helpful advice.

The conclusion is: If you feel experienced enough to take part in the Performance, Repertoire and Teaching boards, please do! 

O.K. i see, thank you. 

[jpianoflorida]

My view is this:     I am a teacher and so I don't post in areas where students are having discussions, unless it involves needing a teachers input.      When I post in "teachers forum", I am wanting to discuss issues with other teachers. If you are not a teacher then you do not understand where we are coming from. Sorry to say that, but that is the truth.   I'm 41 years old, so I don't know what it's like to be in high school these days, so I wouldn't post about that.   We need to understand a situation completely and make sure advice/opinions we are giving is coming from experience.   Anyone can post in "anything but piano".   I personally think the site is set up well.   I also don't understand these days why everyone uses the "narrowminded" description of anyone and anything that they don't agree with.   Has anyone else noticed that?    If anyone's opinion doesn't match theirs, they are called narrowminded. I'm talking about in life, not just on this forum.     Nils, the site is great, please ignore people who just want to complain. 

[daniel patschan]

Nils, ignore people who just want to complain because they like to complain in general - but do do not ignore people who are seriously interested to make things better. 

[debussy symbolism]

People complain for a reason. It is because something isn't up to their needs and they therefore feel insulted or unsafe, thus complain. The goal of a utopia is to have no one complain, but as it is evident, a utopia isn't possible given that humans have souls and possess needs that may satisfy themselves but not others. It is therefore up to the moderator to have as little whining as possible and if any new objects pertaining to the forum result in members worrying about them and those objects really serve no real purposem, then it is probably better to elide those objects, with objects I mean the notice signs mentioned previously here.

I too was quite surprised when seeing those notices, but then again I felt that they were unnecessary because I already know that I am responding in a Teacher's board and that I am not a teacher. Again, don't be discouraged by those notices, and don't be discouraged by Nils. Feel free to express your mind and that by itself will make this forum a better place, if it can be better. (A forum is a forum what can you expect?)

Best.

[ahinton]

Nils, ignore people who just want to complain because they like to complain in general - but do do not ignore people who are seriously interested to make things better. 

That is indeed very sound advice - but I am not sure that Nils needs to hear it, as I have every confidence that he already understands it perfectly well. All walks of life are dogged by professional complainers, especially nowadays. All that matters here is that Nils is able to recognise the difference between legitimate complaints and those which are made purely for the sake of compalining and making a noise; I have no reason to believe that Nils has ever been in any doubt about which complaints and comments are valid and constructive and which are not - nor do I believe that he has ever done other than act accordingly.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

People complain for a reason.

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, one has to consider whether, in any particular case, that reason is vald and legitimate. Some people complain justly and constructively, whereas others do so for no better reason that that they enjoy making complaints and having other people read them. In the case of this forum, it is Nils's responsibility first to assess which is which when he receives them and then to act accordingly.

Best,

Alistair

[jpianoflorida]

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, one has to consider whether, in any particular case, that reason is vald and legitimate. Some people complain justly and constructively, whereas others do so for no better reason that that they enjoy making complaints and having other people read them. In the case of this forum, it is Nils's responsibility first to assess which is which when he receives them and then to act accordingly.

Best,

Alistair

very well put! thanks alistair.

[debussy symbolism]

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, one has to consider whether, in any particular case, that reason is vald and legitimate. Some people complain justly and constructively, whereas others do so for no better reason that that they enjoy making complaints and having other people read them. In the case of this forum, it is Nils's responsibility first to assess which is which when he receives them and then to act accordingly.

Best,

Alistair

In real life that perhaps may be true, but not much can be offered on a forum, so I really don't see why anyone would complain, whether because of ennui or any such things. Concerning whether a complaint may be legit, it is really easy to see based on a certain fact. If someone should complain about something that isn't tied to the forum, then we can say that that complaint is "illegit." However, if someone should be complaining about something that is inevitably connected to the forum, and doesn't particularly suit one's needs, then the complaint is "legit."

If I needed to make false complaints with a sole purpose of annoying forum members I would, but given that I have better things to do than sit on the forum 24/7, I do not feel a particular need to do so.

[ahinton]

In real life that perhaps may be true, but not much can be offered on a forum, so I really don't see why anyone would complain, whether because of ennui or any such things.

Oh - OK, so "real life" is one thing and an internet piano forum is quite another, then; how delighted Nils will be to learn this...

Concerning whether a complaint may be legit, it is really easy to see based on a certain fact. If someone should complain about something that isn't tied to the forum, then we can say that that complaint is "illegit." However, if someone should be complaining about something that is inevitably connected to the forum, and doesn't particularly suit one's needs, then the complaint is "legit."

Not entirely untrue, but a grossly over-simplified and selectively partial view nonetheless; for a compaint to this forum to be legitimised, it would need to be justifiable in and of itself as well as relevant to the intended activities of this forum.

If I needed to make false complaints with a sole purpose of annoying forum members I would, but given that I have better things to do than sit on the forum 24/7, I do not feel a particular need to do so.

I'm not being personal here - by which I mean that I am not castigating anyone in particlar for making complaints to this forum. What I did instead was observe that, when there appears to be a pesonal dispute between an individual forum member and the forum owner over certain aspects of forum conduct, that complaint would better be addressed directly by the complainant to that forum owner rather than exposed to the remainder of the forum's membership as though seeking to acquire a kind of corporate legitimacy. In the end, if a complainant doesn't like either the forum itself or the privately sent response to his/her privately sent complaint thereto, he/she can always register his/her protest by quitting forum membership. This statement is not intended as advice - but at the same time it is not intended not to be taken as advice if appropriate...

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

Oh - OK, so "real life" is one thing and an internet piano forum is quite another, then; how delighted Nils will be to learn this...

You claimed so yourself remember, when you were assessing the maturity of "Ahinton" and "Ihatepop," you pointed out that a comparison of maturity cannot be established because forum names do not imply anything. Likewise, forum personalities do not imply anything. One may act very much differently on a forum, but in fact may be very tractable and timid in life outside of forum, if they appear boisteorus and somewhat aggressive here.

What I did instead was observe that, when there appears to be a pesonal dispute between an individual forum member and the forum owner over certain aspects of forum conduct, that complaint would better be addressed directly by the complainant to that forum owner rather than exposed to the remainder of the forum's membership as though seeking to acquire a kind of corporate legitimacy. In the end, if a complainant doesn't like either the forum itself or the privately sent response to his/her privately sent complaint thereto, he/she can always register his/her protest by quitting forum membership. This statement is not intended as advice - but at the same time it is not intended not to be taken as advice if appropriate...

Best,

Alistair

Intending protest by leaving isn't appealing. It rather reminds me of Hitler's Wagnerian downfall- he wouldn't just die, but made a memorable performance doing so. Same here, one doesn't just leave to get respect, but creates a mess in the form of spam, insults, degratory remarks etc.

[ahinton]

you pointed out that a comparison of maturity cannot be established because forum names do not imply anything. Likewise, forum personalities do not imply anything. One may act very much differently on a forum, but in fact may be very tractable and timid in life outside of forum, if they appear boisteorus and somewhat aggressive here.

I still say that forum names and personalities do not necessarily imply anything in particular, but since this fact clearly does not in any way detract from what I wrote on the subject of how, when and why complaints should or should not be addressed to this forum, your observation here is a "red herring" - i.e. of no pertinence whatsoever (indeed, it is barely even impertinent, unlike your customary "style")...

Intending protest by leaving isn't appealing. It rather reminds me of Hitler's Wagnerian downfall- he wouldn't just die, but made a memorable performance doing so. Same here, one doesn't just leave to get respect, but creates a mess in the form of spam, insults, degratory remarks etc.

How any individual may choose to cease membership of this fourm is a personal matter for that individual if, as and when he/she may choose to leave it; such quitting does not at all presuppose, by definition, a need for any of the rationales or attitudinisings that you list here.

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

I still say that forum names and personalities do not necessarily imply anything in particular, but since this fact clearly does not in any way detract from what I wrote on the subject of how, when and why complaints should or should not be addressed to this forum, your observation here is a "red herring" - i.e. of no pertinence whatsoever (indeed, it is barely even impertinent, unlike your customary "style")...
How any individual may choose to cease membership of this fourm is a personal matter for that individual if, as and when he/she may choose to leave it; such quitting does not at all presuppose, by definition, a need for any of the rationales or attitudinisings that you list here.

Best,

Alistair

A "red herring." Interesting. Never heard of that before. I do essentially agree with you concerning providing personal messages to express opposition, and withdrawing if not succeeding.

Over all, I would like to make another statement that bears no significance to our talk here. It is much more exiting to see members display their complaints publicaly instead of privately for a simple feeling of excitement. Isn't it always better to witness the downfall with tragedy behind it? Sending private messages and departing quietly doesn't create an impression and only bottles up anger inside. According to Oscar Wilde, whenever some kind of drama is involved in a dispute, one is always not coming down with despair after the conflict. Not sure if that really works, but apparently does so in "The Picture of Dorian Gray."

Best.